427 replies to this topic

[GoManGo]

Making the Mediums nearly as agile as the lights is step 1. Mediums should be more like lights than heavies. Acceleration should be good, deceleration should be good, and so should turning. This needs to apply to mediums on up to assaults but more so in mediums. In a medium your underpowered outgunned and maneuver like a hay wagon so there is no getting away from the engagement after contact is made. So the poor slow medium gets blasted to HELLL!!!! in 2-5 seconds into the match why play one? A heavy might last a bit longer and players have figured out that in a assault you might last 1-4 minutes after heavy fighting starts so why not just play assaults to stay alive longer. Only other option is to buy a light and become a OP god and rofl stomp everyone which is a real joke it should take a light mech or mechs quite a effort to even bring down a well equipped medium with a skilled pilot. Instead PGI and devs are NOOBS and make it all instakill madness and anarchy.

[Errinovar]

IMO economic incentives to boost medium popularity won't work in the long term, because it fails to deal with the reasons why mediums are unpopular in the first place (most of which have been detailed in the posts above). The mechanics of the game are the drivers of mech and variant popularity, and people play to win, hence mediums being fairly unpopular because they bring nothing to the table.

That said, if you really wanted an economic incentive rather than giving a cbill boost, instate a modification tax on lights/heavies/assaults such that any weapon changes from the base model (outside of certain weapons for each weight class) would cost an addition 15-25% to account for housings. The rationale for this is that mediums are the most common mech and as such weapons are designed in terms of mediums and then modified at the shops to fit the different weights. As I said before certain weight classes could buy certain weapons without tax.. ie lights could buy light lasers, machine guns etc without penalty whereas heavy and assault mechs could add LRM 15 and 20 without paying a tax. Then rewind the c-bill nerf, and you effectively give the mediums a boost that relates specifically to their versatility. This could be expanded to pretty much every piece of equipment, so buying a light/heavy/assault and modding it to maximum efficiency becomes significantly more expensive than it is now.

[Zyllos]

Not having all weapons hit a single location would go a long way in making Mediums not instantly die.

The balance has to happen in such a way that specific hitboxes on Medium mechs are not hit as often as Heavy mechs but will be hit somewhere on the mech more often than Light mechs.

I would personally, remove 25% of the Arm armor/internal structure and apply around 25% to the CT and 75% to the LT/RT (37.5% for each).

Then I would modify all weapons to have unique spreading mechanics based on equipped location and weapon type:

• Arm mounted weapons will fire in a cone spread
  
  • The closer you are to your target, the less spread that exists
    
  • The cone will be centered on the arm crosshair
• Torso mounted weapons will fire in a cylinder spread
  
  • Regardless of distance, the spread will be the same
    
  • The cylinder will be centered on the torso crosshair
• Laser weapons always fire in the same pattern they are mounted on a specific location
  
  • The actual landing of the pattern center will fall within the spread depended on the firing location
    
  • Each location (LT/RT/CT/LA/RA/H) will create a new random location
    
    • Example: The LT will hit one spot in the cone while the RA might hit a different spot
  • If a section is currently firing a laser, that section can no longer fire laser weapons until the current firing pattern is finished.
    
    • Either chain fire with the duration of the beam in the chain fire speed -OR- group fire the lasers together.
• Ballistic weapons always fire within their respective spread
  
  • Ballistic weapons have no stipulations on when they can fire.
• Missile weapons ignore spread but instead fire random patterns aimed at their respective crosshair.
  
  • Missile weapons have no stiuplations on when they can fire.

What this will do is introduce a bit more spread in weapons. The spread itself should be small enough that your not going to randomly miss a Heavy/Assault sized target but will spread the damage out across different sections. But the spread is enough to cause some misses against Medium/Light sized targets.

Against Medium mechs, generally the misses will be more done by ballistic style weapons because of the "lankyness" of Mediums, with empty spaces between arms and legs.

Lights will basically still feel the same because a small amount of spread compared to direct aiming won't effect Lights too much due to their size. This will be especially true when at range.

There won't be too much difference between a Heavy and an Assault on terms of missing and damage spread. The major difference been Heavies/Assaults is weapons and speeds. But damage spread will exist, even while aiming dead center of the mech, thus making them survive much longer due to the high amounts of armor/internal structure points.

[Davers]

I don't want people to run mediums because of economic reasons. I want people to run mediums because they have a role that needs to be performed that they are good at.

Mediums should be the most nimble units in the game. They should be able to stop and turn on a dime. Allowing larger engine sizes is self defeating. My Hunchback 4SP moves at stock Commando speeds, with only 3 tons more weapons. It would probably be better if I just played a Commando.

[Green Mamba]

Ghogiel, on 09 October 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

yeah no.

If so people can stop complaining about the Cent being too large and the STK being small then. And while we are at it we can make the spider and jenner 2-3 times larger than they are.

I may agree with Spider but the Jenner has the CT of an Awesome already..It does not need to be bigger

[sokitumi]

I've been running Meds exclusively for about 6months now. Have 4xCDA, 5xHBK, 4xBJ, 3xKTO, and grinding out TBT at the moment(3/5). Also, my k/d has been slowly dropping from about 2.5 ( back when i was working on the founders+awm+jm6) to now 1.85. Most of my meds hover around the 1.25 to 1.8 per mech. *I'll add that 95% of that is solo pug*

Now with that said... meds are a great way to MAN THE *(@) UP and play the game better. It's easy to ho out a 3.0 K/D in whatever meta broken heavy or assault, be it AC we have now or the PPC of weeks ago. I have no problem at all dropping my K/D a bit as it makes me a better player being aware of damage, position, and push/pull timing much more than I think one would in a heavy+.

Little respect for players that run meta beyond their exp for a 3rd module. (and that goes from SDR's to Atlai)

*(sry if that seems like humble brag attempt, or straight brag, it's not. Those numbers aren't that impressive, I'll be the 1st to admit.)

Edited by sokitumi, 10 October 2013 - 09:22 AM.

[Viges]

I just dont understand your intentions:
you drive one and want buffs?
you dont drive one but want to kill those?

I see mediums in every game - centurions, cicadas, hunches - not so much others though. So they are seem mostly fine to me.

[JKohn]

The absurd thing about medium mechs is that they dont go any faster than heavy (or even assault) mechs. Sure you can use the biggest engine to go 100kph with speed freak elite buff on Hunchback, but then you are out of space for any weapons that would make a difference. The Hunchback stock 64kph (64KPH!!!) is a joke and instant suicide for a medium mech, you need 80kph+ at least for some tactical maneuvers, something you'd expect a medium mech is designed for, tactical maneuvers, agility, the element of surprise. That's hard to do with 64kph.

What is the huge design flaw in Hunchback that makes it go patchetic 64kph, that's less than heavies and even assaults, while having less armor, less weapons, but a big easy to hit target frame. Meanwhile, a Dragon runs past me at 90kph, with more armor, more weapons, at the same target size.

What is the advantage at playing a Hunchback? Or medium in general? If there arent any, why are mediums in the game? Why werent anything thought of? If they are a hard mode on purpose, why isnt it stated on the mech lab when you go buy your first mech? Warning, this is a medium mech, it will be harder to play than anything else in the game, if you want challenge pick this.

I love my Hunchbacks, this model is like my baby you know, the first mech you picked after trials were done, something you just dont abandon, but while piloting one I'm definately at a disadvantage and have to be extra careful at all times. I should just go pick Jaegermech and be invincible now that I have gone through the "trial of medium" in full.

[Sephlock]

What the Hunchback needs is a hologram projector that makes it look like another mech, so that people won't instantly focus fire it whenever it takes a step out of cover.

[sokitumi]

JKohn, on 10 October 2013 - 09:22 AM, said:

The absurd thing about medium mechs is that they dont go any faster than heavy (or even assault) mechs. Sure you can use the biggest engine to go 100kph with speed freak elite buff on Hunchback, but then you are out of space for any weapons that would make a difference. The Hunchback stock 64kph (64KPH!!!) is a joke and instant suicide for a medium mech, you need 80kph+ at least for some tactical maneuvers, something you'd expect a medium mech is designed for, tactical maneuvers, agility, the element of surprise. That's hard to do with 64kph.

What is the huge design flaw in Hunchback that makes it go patchetic 64kph, that's less than heavies and even assaults, while having less armor, less weapons, but a big easy to hit target frame. Meanwhile, a Dragon runs past me at 90kph, with more armor, more weapons, at the same target size.

What is the advantage at playing a Hunchback? Or medium in general? If there arent any, why are mediums in the game? Why werent anything thought of? If they are a hard mode on purpose, why isnt it stated on the mech lab when you go buy your first mech? Warning, this is a medium mech, it will be harder to play than anything else in the game, if you want challenge pick this.

I love my Hunchbacks, this model is like my baby you know, the first mech you picked after trials were done, something you just dont abandon, but while piloting one I'm definately at a disadvantage and have to be extra careful at all times. I should just go pick Jaegermech and be invincible now that I have gone through the "trial of medium" in full.

The role of the hunchback is be by the assaults and cover/support. Basically... it's designed to be a turret, and imo one of the more distinctive rides, where the other med chasis don't feel as unique. If you're trying to frontline in a hunchy that goes under 80.. you're doing it wrong. Not to say that the SP for ex. can't mosh just as good as anything it's class, it can.

Edited by sokitumi, 10 October 2013 - 09:42 AM.

[Deathlike]

Sephlock, on 10 October 2013 - 09:26 AM, said:

What the Hunchback needs is a hologram projector that makes it look like another mech, so that people won't instantly focus fire it whenever it takes a step out of cover.

So, you want to make an Atlas look like an Awesome? Or vice versa?

[Shadey99]

sokitumi, on 10 October 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

The role of the hunchback is be by the assaults and cover/support. Basically... it's designed to be a turret, and imo one of the more distinctive rides, where the other med chasis don't feel as unique. If you're trying to frontline in a hunchy that goes under 80.. you're doing it wrong. Not to say that the SP for ex. can't mosh just as good as anything it's class, it can.

Except in TT (where they had roles) the bulk of forces where lights (cheap & common) and mediums (common), and they would be backing up Heavies (uncommon) as Assaults (rare) were almost never seen...

So mediums would often be up front, backed up by heavy fire support mechs, while lights harassed and flanked. And if the Hunchie fought another medium it was very very strong, however in MWO heavies and assaults overwhelmingly dominate all other classes and a Hunchie versus a Atlas isn't all that fun...

[JKohn]

sokitumi, on 10 October 2013 - 09:41 AM, said:

The role of the hunchback is be by the assaults and cover/support. Basically... it's designed to be a turret, and imo one of the more distinctive rides, where the other med chasis don't feel as unique. If you're trying to frontline in a hunchy that goes under 80.. you're doing it wrong. Not to say that the SP for ex. can't mosh just as good as anything it's class, it can.

I understand this perfectly, and I have developed a play style where I do frontline brawling very rarely unless some perfect situation arises. But the core problem is that another heavy or assault is better at covering/supporting the next one than a medium, and since anyone can pick a heavy or assault at their leizure when ever they want to, it renders mediums kinda subpar, a flavour.

A real BT situation would simply be such where there is more lights and mediums, less heavies and scarcely assaults. This is not the situation in this game, the games are packed full of heavies and assaults since you get access to one by just clicking on their icon in the mechlab as you please, but the poor mediums are left in a state where they would be just fine in a lore friendly match that would not be full of giant mechs.

In fact the mediums are fine currently, but the system how matches are put together is not fine. The game is in an off-lore setting where Atlases are sold in walmarts with 3,99 price tags, hell they even let people test drive them for free. Give me matches where the search engine looks for 5 mediums, 3 lights, 3 heavies, 1 assault. That obviously wont happen since it would "force people to play mediums" so the next best thing is to try and balance them better and not just slap them in as if we were in an authentic BT situation.

[PappySmurf]

Jkohn said----> In fact the mediums are fine currently)--->I say I disagree mediums are target dummies right now. Mediums are my favorite mech to pilot but this is true--->>GoManGO---> a medium your underpowered outgunned and maneuver like a hay wagon so there is no getting away from the engagement after contact is made. So the poor slow medium gets blasted to HELLL!!!! in 2-5 seconds into the match why play one? A heavy might last a bit longer and players have figured out that in a assault you might last 1-4 minutes after heavy fighting starts so why not just play assaults to stay alive longer. Only other option is to buy a light and become a OP god and rofl stomp everyone which is a real joke it should take a light mech or mechs quite a effort to even bring down a well equipped medium with a skilled pilot. )-->A fix and solution is needed I like this idea --->>>Give me matches where the search engine looks for 5 mediums, 3 lights, 3 heavies, 1 assault or 2 heavies 2 assaults.Would be a much better way to make the MM work and the matches more balanced and fun.

[Mcchuggernaut]

PEEFsmash, on 09 October 2013 - 10:42 AM, said:

Stop making them absurdly large. That's how.

The Stalker, an Assault mech, is actually a relatively small target with a very protective body shape and small CT. The Cataphract has a short, compact body with highly protective arms. Meanwhile, Medium mechs are freaking goliaths with what I can only imagine are hollow and air-filled bodies that are easily hit. They weigh less, they can't mount the same weapons, they don't move that fast, and they have half the armor of Heavies. The Shadowhawk seems to be the next iteration of the "Marshmallow Man Syndrome" the developers have decided to impose on every medium mech, therefore making what could be quality mechs into p*ss-poor hot air balloons.

That is a very good point you make there. I always wondered why medium mechs looked so big, when a lot of them should only be slightly bigger than a Jenner, if we are going on pure weight=size. I'm not sure what the official lore says about mech sizes, but they always seemed a bit off to me.

[RandomLurker]

Mcchuggernaut, on 10 October 2013 - 12:24 PM, said:

That is a very good point you make there. I always wondered why medium mechs looked so big, when a lot of them should only be slightly bigger than a Jenner, if we are going on pure weight=size. I'm not sure what the official lore says about mech sizes, but they always seemed a bit off to me.

PGI's artists pretty clearly mistake a linear increase in weight to = a linear increase in height. In reality, a linear increase in weight should result in a cubed increase in height. I've got some diagrams of a very basic explanation of the square cube law kicking around; here's a link but I won't embed them this time cause they are large and obnoxious.

http://imgur.com/o7KwpiF
http://imgur.com/YYiTpbC

Yes, S/C law applies to volume not mass I know, but given that mechs have a similar construction all around (internal skeleton, engine, layers of armor plating, etc), volume=weight should be a close enough approximation to work with. Gameplay balance trumps all of course, as well.

What this means is that lights should be slightly larger (would fix spiders - raven/jenner is fine imo), mediums should be slightly smaller (would fix mediums - hunchback and cicada IMO are the only mediums scaled right), and heavies and assaults would be slightly smaller as well ( would fix quickies and help dragons, and reduce the alpha meta slightly since even assaults will be harder to focus). In other words, all sizes should shift towards the middles.

[Roland]

Quote

In other words, all sizes should shift towards the middles.

This seems like it would just make heavy and assault chassis even stronger, and really wouldn't make folks run medium mechs at all.

[Cragger]

Roland, on 09 October 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Make medium mechs not suck so bad.

Mediums should be smaller than heavy mechs. The biggest medium should be smaller than the smallest heavy. Mech tonnage should translate DIRECTLY into mech volume.

Yeah, I understand that this may not be how it would be in the real world. I DO NOT GIVE A ****.

Gameplay trumps realism. You need to have mech volume and tonnage directly correlated, or else stuff doesn't work right.

^This, converting from a turn based dice roll to real time twitch precision fire has always been a cluster**** in every game that has attempted it. The only ones that ever did well in converting to turn base to real time has left in the dice rolls like Starfleet Command did.

There is also a second two part huge issue that is making mediums basically untenable atm.

Part A is that the only reason you took more mediums then other mechs in Battletech TT is that mediums had the most efficient effective firepower and endurance to battle value (and C-bill) ratio then any other mech class. You got more for your battle value points then if you tried to go all heavy or any other class. Battle value simply doesn't exist in MWO and with no running costs C-bill value is also meaningless.

Part B is that for some... peculiar reason PGI has repeatedly given most Heavy and Assault mechs far more hardpoints then they even did in Battletech while mediums by and large have had to struggle with their usual battletech amounts. Heavy and Assault mechs existed in Battletech primarily not to carry a butt load of common medium weapons but to carry larger more massive and heat generating weapons more comfortably.

[zhajin]

all rewards should be balanced based on the mech type. medium > heavy = light > assault. RnR was suppose to accomplish this, but the took it out and never compensated. now most matches are assaults lights, and the occasional ac20 jagger....

the funny thing is most of the best pilots will run mediums when pugging just to have some kinda challenge.

I miss RnR, it was really just an indirect BV system. needed some balancing, and way to counter exploiters. but overall it added more than it took away.

Edited by zhajin, 10 October 2013 - 12:53 PM.

[RandomLurker]

Roland, on 10 October 2013 - 12:45 PM, said:

This seems like it would just make heavy and assault chassis even stronger, and really wouldn't make folks run medium mechs at all.

Well it's basically required for medium mechs. A Trebuchet is as tall as a malfing Victor for holy sakes.

Balancing assaults and heavies will require more, either convergence or major heat system re-works. Once that's done though, sizing them down slightly will help normalize mechs with hitbox problems like the Awesome and Orion. I'm not suggesting a very large change either, but a slight one will help spread damage out at long range which is a good thing.