440 replies to this topic

[Odins Fist]

Odins Fist, on 05 November 2013 - 10:36 AM, said:

Spiders are not OP... A lot of people have no problems HITTING Spiders...
Most people have a problem with them not taking damage in relation to the damage output of their weapons. or at least that's what they think.

There is no consistency when it comes to damage done to spiders, people are saying the same exact situation should not produce so many different results to the point at which the community has noticed.

When all your indicators show a HIT, yet no additional damage is done, then there is some sort of issue.
How is a newer player supposed to gauge whether or not everything his instruments and visual indications show is actually happening? I think that has a lot of newer players scratching their heads.

Hitting them is not the problem... People thinking that their shots are just sliding off the Spider is.
Now this doesn't happen every single time with the Spider, BUT here is the problem, are you ready for it..??
There is NO CONSISTENCY.

#1. Sometimes all indicators show a hit and what seems to be very little damage is done. (armor or no armor left)
#2. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and all damage seems to be done. (armor or no armor left)
#3. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and ZERO damage seems to be done. (armor or no armor left)
#4. Sometimes all indicators show the exact same hit, and the Spider dies even though he had what looks like full armor.
#5. Sometimes no sensors show hit, only visual confirmation of round hitting, and Spider takes no damage.
#6. Sometimes no sensors show hit, only visual confirmation of round hitting, and Spider dies.

These issues do NOT exist soley with the Spider, and this is NOT always the case with killing an enemy Spider.
However, the frequency of uncertainty as it relates to the damage the Spider takes depending on examples #1 to #6, is quite apparent in comments from players in the community.

Is this a Hit Box issue..?? Unknown, and perhaps there is no design flaw with the mech itself.
Is this HSR issue..?? Possible, but we haven't been given any concrete info to look at.

Is there no issue at all..?? More then highly unlikely, the amount of feedback sighting the same issues over, and over, and over, and over, and over again by multitudes of players across the board, and even from those that pilot Spiders says otherwise.

I ran a Spider©-Trial for a few rounds one day, and I was surprised at the inconsistency of the damage I was taking considering I was weaving in and out of large formations of the enemy, I just couldn't believe that 5 mechs at a a time all had so awful AIM that they couldn't manage to get my Armor past yellow, and that my arms or legs didn't come off after the amount of fire I received.. Maybe I wasn't being hit as much as I thought...

It's funny that using the same approach to aiming and hitting other lights going similar speeds is seen to produce different results by players, this indicated by comments I have read.
I will say this, I know the Locust has nowhere near the armor of a Spider, but I have obliterated so many Locusts with FAR less effort then I have Spiders using the same approach..
Is my AIM off that much..?? Possible, but highly unlikely, and I have seen examples #1 through #6 myself to varying degrees.

No issue with how the Spider takes damage?
Oh well, only the future will tell huh..??
.
.


The problem looks like NO CONSISTENCY.

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Edited by Odins Fist, 08 November 2013 - 10:04 AM.

[Clit Beastwood]

I finally experienced an issue fighting a 5k while driving my 5d. Observation - if I shoot a section *while it's flashing* and taking damage, no subsequent damage registers until it stops flashing (on the paper doll). The person had a ping of 350ish.
My ping was 80, and my 5d was taking damage just fine. Of course happened when I was basically done for the night and stopped recording. Have a bunch of new clips on my twitch, separated match by match. No HSR issues observed over several matches last night except the 5k. Had a heck of a time putting down a commando, but I think thats because I was tired and slow.

Edited by Fierostetz, 08 November 2013 - 10:15 AM.

[Sable Dove]

Fierostetz, on 08 November 2013 - 10:13 AM, said:

I finally experienced an issue fighting a 5k while driving my 5d. Observation - if I shoot a section *while it's flashing* and taking damage, no subsequent damage registers until it stops flashing (on the paper doll). The person had a ping of 350ish.
My ping was 80, and my 5d was taking damage just fine. Of course happened when I was basically done for the night and stopped recording. Have a bunch of new clips on my twitch, separated match by match. No HSR issues observed over several matches last night except the 5k. Had a heck of a time putting down a commando, but I think thats because I was tired and slow.

This is more an issue of damage not displaying accurately. Generally, if a location is flashing, it will not update again until it has stopped flashing. Also, if you shoot an enemy quickly in different locations (within a couple seconds, but after the doll has finished flashing), the location previously hit will also flash, regardless of whether or not you actually hit that location.

However, in either of these cases, damage does seem to be applied correctly, but not displayed properly.

[Dimento Graven]

Odins Fist, on 08 November 2013 - 09:55 AM, said:

.

Wow, this vid really seems to demonstrate the problem.

Soon PGI will fix it tough.

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 08 November 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Wow, this vid really seems to demonstrate the problem.

Soon PGI will fix it tough.

Is that Hit Boxes though? HSR? HR (Hit Registry)? You tell me. It shows something is wrong with something, but what? Which one? To what degree? Was that before, or after they removed the hole in it's CT?

(And to basically quote you, what was their ping? Ping fluctuation? What makes this video more conclusive than the one I pointed out? Is it because it involves a Spider ignoring damage, and not a Cataphrat ignoring damage? Why can you pick and choose what videos qualify as evidence and what doesn't?)

[Clit Beastwood]

Sable Dove, on 08 November 2013 - 12:25 PM, said:

This is more an issue of damage not displaying accurately. Generally, if a location is flashing, it will not update again until it has stopped flashing. Also, if you shoot an enemy quickly in different locations (within a couple seconds, but after the doll has finished flashing), the location previously hit will also flash, regardless of whether or not you actually hit that location.

However, in either of these cases, damage does seem to be applied correctly, but not displayed properly.

Not on this one, it wasn't taking damage as it should, though I'm pretty sure it's ping related. The trend I've observed is small mech + high ping means they're not where I see them on my screen - not complaining, I just don't want be accused of saying there's *never* anything wrong with spiders. I run one of my several SDR-5d's 90% of the time I play, and I record almost every match, and make them public so of anyone wants to review old matches the link is in my sig. From the SDR pilot's perspective, at least, there are a lot of almost hits followed by complaints of hitbox issues in the comments. If there's a real tangible issue with them, I'd love to help find it. If not, I'd love to help prove it wrong. The one thing I've observed is that 5k's with high pings seem more survivable, but I'm still putting down 5d's and 5v's with far less effort. I don't know why one chassis variant would be different. According to my spreadsheet (yes, I keep combat spreadsheets) most of the 5k's I see are 150+ pings. Personally I think the majority of spider issues have been resolved, but light mechs + high ping = hard to hit. Fact of life.

Edited by Fierostetz, 08 November 2013 - 12:56 PM.

[Dimento Graven]

Tesunie, on 08 November 2013 - 12:51 PM, said:

Is that Hit Boxes though? HSR? HR (Hit Registry)? You tell me. It shows something is wrong with something, but what? Which one? To what degree? Was that before, or after they removed the hole in it's CT?

(And to basically quote you, what was their ping? Ping fluctuation? What makes this video more conclusive than the one I pointed out? Is it because it involves a Spider ignoring damage, and not a Cataphrat ignoring damage? Why can you pick and choose what videos qualify as evidence and what doesn't?)

Totally agree, in my mind it's a combination of "all of the above" that somewhat regularly grants the Spider its unreasonable survivability.

Fixing HSR should help alleviate issues resulting from significant ping differences.
Fixing hit detection should alleviate issues related to shots actually hitting but not registering.
Fixing hit boxes should allow players who ARE actually aiming correctly to get their hits in.

Since PGI has stated their looking into all 3, and specifically mentioned the Spider as being among the first on their list, it should be fixed relatively soon.

Edited by Dimento Graven, 08 November 2013 - 01:00 PM.

[Sable Dove]

Dimento Graven, on 08 November 2013 - 12:40 PM, said:

Wow, this vid really seems to demonstrate the problem.

Soon PGI will fix it tough.

Server-authoritative system. His client saw a hit. Server did not. That's not a problem with the Spider's hitboxes. That's HSR not being perfect, and it's more evident for anything fast. From the perspective of other players, both of those shots would have been misses.

People need to lead fast targets a little extra. HSR is not perfect, but at least you don't have to lead a target by twice it's length when using Lasers anymore.


It's pretty funny. How many of the people who are mad realize that half the time you hit a fast mech, on their client, you completely missed, but dealt damage? How many are thankful of all the times they completely whiff and the server counts it as a hit instead?

[Duellica]

Coming from a Spider only player I chose it because I was told that it was broken and from what I can tell they seem right. I can run through what seems like way too much fire without dying. I don't know why but it is fun for me at least but I only like the fast twitch style of the Spider so until they fix it I will just keep having fun.

[Tesunie]

Duellica, on 08 November 2013 - 02:06 PM, said:

Coming from a Spider only player I chose it because I was told that it was broken and from what I can tell they seem right. I can run through what seems like way too much fire without dying. I don't know why but it is fun for me at least but I only like the fast twitch style of the Spider so until they fix it I will just keep having fun.

Question... if you have only ever run Spiders... how would you know if it's taking more damage than any other light/fast mech should? Unless, this isn't a wholly true statement here and you use to run other mechs, but changed over to just the Spider...

Basically, how can you tell without anything to compare to? It's like me telling you how it is to be a twin, and you aren't a twin. I can't explain it any more than you can explain how it's like to not be a twin. (I use to get asked that question all the time.)

[Dimento Graven]

Sable Dove, on 08 November 2013 - 01:59 PM, said:

Server-authoritative system. His client saw a hit. Server did not. That's not a problem with the Spider's hitboxes. That's HSR not being perfect, and it's more evident for anything fast. From the perspective of other players, both of those shots would have been misses.

People need to lead fast targets a little extra. HSR is not perfect, but at least you don't have to lead a target by twice it's length when using Lasers anymore.

It's pretty funny. How many of the people who are mad realize that half the time you hit a fast mech, on their client, you completely missed, but dealt damage? How many are thankful of all the times they completely whiff and the server counts it as a hit instead?

All I can say is, once PGI fixes it, Spider pilots are probably in for the same rude awakening that the Raven pilots got...

Tesunie, on 08 November 2013 - 02:09 PM, said:

Question... if you have only ever run Spiders... how would you know if it's taking more damage than any other light/fast mech should? Unless, this isn't a wholly true statement here and you use to run other mechs, but changed over to just the Spider...

Basically, how can you tell without anything to compare to? It's like me telling you how it is to be a twin, and you aren't a twin. I can't explain it any more than you can explain how it's like to not be a twin. (I use to get asked that question all the time.)

Maybe because when he sees ANY OTHER 'mech have even HALF that amount of fire power pointed in their general direction, what you see next is 'mech vapor, where it once stood...

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 08 November 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:

Maybe because when he sees ANY OTHER 'mech have even HALF that amount of fire power pointed in their general direction, what you see next is 'mech vapor, where it once stood...

He could have some good light pilot skills... or the other lights didn't dodge and ran in a straight line... or...

I'm saying from a personal experience. Personally, I only find my Spider marginally more survivable than my Jenner, but that's because I find that the long CT of the jenner gets me into trouble when I run sideways to targets. My Raven lives just as long as a Spider most times (Only have one Raven right now, the 4x). Locust doesn't but one lucky hit from just about anything and a Locust is injured or dead. (Thought, funny enough, I have found that a slow locust somehow survives more hits and lives longer than a fast one. I don't get it...)

[Dimento Graven]

Tesunie, on 08 November 2013 - 02:32 PM, said:

He could have some good light pilot skills... or the other lights didn't dodge and ran in a straight line... or...

I'm saying from a personal experience. Personally, I only find my Spider marginally more survivable than my Jenner, but that's because I find that the long CT of the jenner gets me into trouble when I run sideways to targets. My Raven lives just as long as a Spider most times (Only have one Raven right now, the 4x). Locust doesn't but one lucky hit from just about anything and a Locust is injured or dead. (Thought, funny enough, I have found that a slow locust somehow survives more hits and lives longer than a fast one. I don't get it...)

Or your experiences are even more limited due to your 6 year old computer...

[Tesunie]

Dimento Graven, on 08 November 2013 - 02:38 PM, said:

Or your experiences are even more limited due to your 6 year old computer...

Okay please explain something to me. How does my six year old computer have ANYTHING to do with experiences in different mech chassis? Honestly, it has none. I actually have very low ping, which is probably why I don't have the survivability in my Spider that other Spiders seem to have.

Mechs I own and use:
Jenner
Raven
Spider
Locust
Cicada
Hunchback
Centurion
Dragon
Quickdraw
Shadowhawk
Thunderbold
Battlemaster (Just started)
Stalker

I've also used, but sold away:
Catapult (K2)
Jagermech
And used a Trial Awesome (which I still want to get sometime)

I've been playing this game since December. I'd have to say I should have enough experience in the game that I know that pilot skills can make a difference in a mech and your survivability.

I use the Raven 4X, the "worst Raven there is", to great effect. I have a Cicada set up like a Hollander 3, with a Gauss and a single med laser. I do well with it. I have used every weapon in the game, several times, just to see how they work. What works for one person doesn't work for another. You might survive well in a Spider, I might die quickly. I might do great in a Thunderbolt, you might not be able to do more than 100 damage in the same setup.

Pilot skills can count for a lot. However, I agree that something is wrong that is effecting the spider. I'm just stating, again, that how can one ascertain that something is wrong with a mech, when they have personally used nothing but that mech. It's like never using the LBx weapons, and saying they don't do enough damage. Or never using SRMs, and agreeing that they seem to not be working right. If you haven't used something, it's harder (not impossible though) to figure out if something is wrong or not. (You can even reverse some of those statements. If all you ever used was the LBx, how can you compare it to the normal ACs? Because someone shot at you with normal ACs? They might be a better shot. They might have gotten lucky. Etc.)

To also add, has it occurred to you that the same problems effecting the Spider might also be what's effecting missiles (namely SRMs)? Among other things too? So, it might not be entirely a Spider problem (which you seem to agree). The Spider may have problems of its own, but there are other problems in the game too. Most effect every mech in the game, including the Spider.

[Tesunie]

Duellica, on 08 November 2013 - 05:56 PM, said:

[redacted]

I was told by another team member(not this game) that I should start and master the Spider due to some sort of broken hit mechanic. I don't know what it is or care but when I say "Seems" I mean just that since I don't have any other Mech to compare it to.

So take that as you will but to me it "Seems" to survive more than it should and thus I can understand why I was told to use it.

That's reasonable. I was just wondering where you got your comparison from was all.

I'd suggest to everyone (not pointing anyone out here) that you all check out as many different things in the game. Check out all the weapons (over time of course). Use different mech chassis. The more experience you have in the game, the better you will be for it.

As far as Moderators go... I don't know about them. I've had some of my topics merged with other topics that had nothing to do with each other. Killed both threads from the one merge... As long as you are civil when you make a post, there should be no problems.

Edited by Egomane, 12 November 2013 - 11:01 AM.
quote cleanup

[Tesunie]

[redacted]

As far as I know. I haven't crashed into a dev that just deleted my posts arbitrarily yet, but everyone's experience is different. My Wingman had a topic closed and moved to an admin only area once, but that's because someone linked to sites with game hacks on it...

What was the topic about that seemed to be a problem? Could the thread have gotten moved? Was just sections of the post deleted? Did you "name and shame" someone?

I can't say anything about what happened to you with that mod, so I can't even begin to help with any answers. I'm sure they had a reason, not that they always enlighten us with them...

Edited by Egomane, 12 November 2013 - 11:02 AM.
quote cleanup

[Der Hesse]

5 Matches today with my Spider D. Worst was 3 Kills and 350 Damage. Best was 7 Kills and 750 Damage. Spider is just well designed i guess.

[Monkey Lover]

Maybe this will help you guys. This is video above. Im guessing the first run of the video before its slowed down is running in real time. Each frame is 1/30's of a second or 33.3 ms You can see where ping times matter here. Of course there is some error in this with video converting and sample but it should be close. You guys must have watched players and said "man this guy sucks at shooting" In a lot of the cases he might not know his shooting is off.

Edited by Monkey Lover, 09 November 2013 - 08:47 AM.

[Orodain]

Monkey Lover, on 09 November 2013 - 08:37 AM, said:

Maybe this will help you guys. This is video above. Im guessing the first run of the video before its slowed down is running in real time. Each frame is 1/30's of a second or 33.3 ms You can see where ping times matter here. Of course there is some error in this with video converting and sample but it should be close. You guys must have watched players and said "man this guy sucks at shooting" In a lot of the cases he might not know his shooting is off.

Pgi archives every spider bashing post but the one defending them stays around forever.

Thank you for posting an excellent explanation to their broken nature.

[Tesunie]

Orodain, on 09 November 2013 - 06:46 PM, said:

Pgi archives every spider bashing post but the one defending them stays around forever.

Thank you for posting an excellent explanation to their broken nature.

How old was the post? Was it posted in the Patch Feedback thread forum? If so, then when a new patch comes out, all threads in the forum from the last patch become archived. Could that be your issue?


(Edit: Correcting to proper terminology.)

Edited by Tesunie, 09 November 2013 - 08:08 PM.