Don't be stupid, I don't think you're stupid, so stop trying to make me think you are. When you make statements to the affect of, "ALL OTHER PROBLEMS IN GAME SHOULD BE RESOLVED, BEFORE FIXING THE SPIDER, TO MAKE SURE WE ACTUALLY FIX THE SPIDER, blah blah blah..." It's a CLEAR indication you don't want the Spider actually fixed.
No, it means he wants fixes/repairs done properly and not slap-dash/bandaid BS that often cause as many problems as they solve, if any. 'Stupid' is demanding a 'fix' or trying to 'fix' something when you don't know the cause. What are you going to do if/when they go to the next set of 'mechs' with HB review and the 'same' 'issues' remain with the spider?
The question more so is, where is the Spider broken, how it is broken, and what needs to be fixed to make it not broken. I see too many people just say "Spider's have bad hit boxes" and they don't consider that it might be something else in the game instead, or compiled with a possible hit box issue.
Yeah but that's not really my problem there broke PGI needs to fix them an hit detection.
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 11:26 AM, said:
'Jager cheese'??!?!? Hmmm... I thought 'cheese builds' were those that were specifically made to take advantage of broken mechanics (ala: pop-tarts and Streakapults and maybe SPIDERS! [how's that for 'fuel'?]). I'm not aware of any broken game mechanics that are over powering the Jager or gauss...
Poptarts and streakboats are cheese to you, but a mech designed to exploit the broken mechanics of nigh-instant, pinpoint convergence with the highest and longest-range alpha possible is not? The only thing cheesier is probably the AC20/Gauss +2(ER)PPC Highlander poptart.
Dual Gauss is one of the cheesiest build possible against large targets in the same way that streak boats are cheese against lights. Basically at this point you just seem to be complaining because your cheese build isn't as effective against lights as it is against everything else. It's like bitching about how a streaktaro isn't nearly as effective against assaults as it is against lights.
So far the only evidence of a problem specifically with the Spider is inconclusive because it's shown from the target's perspective. It should be looked into, but even if it is Spider-specific, it's not a significant issue, as it is difficult to hit the supposed problem area even intentionally with a cooperative target.
Most recent match with my Energy Locust. I was "jousting" with a Jenner and was winning (no armor breaches on my mech). I brought him down to red CT internals. Fired a good beam duration of 3 med and 2 med pulse lasers into it. I shut down, he killed me. Then later in the match, a Raven comes across the same Jenner. He has SSRMs and lasers. He brushes hi lasers across the CT, does not kill him. I saw his SSRMs moments later seak in, one hitting a leg and another hitting it's CT. It still did not die.
Not a problem with just the Spider. (Though worse in the Spider I shall agree.) This happened just moments ago in a live match. (I should have killed the Jenner, and then probably fallen to the Commando that just joined the fight.)
So far the only evidence of a problem specifically with the Spider is inconclusive because it's shown from the target's perspective. It should be looked into, but even if it is Spider-specific, it's not a significant issue, as it is difficult to hit the supposed problem area even intentionally with a cooperative target.
The only evidence of an issue that gets bandied about is the same video. The video Dimento posted is handy, but had a loadout that was suboptimal for demonstrating an issue. Again, if someone wants to group up together, we can cap some video from both perspectives while you shoot at me. Doesn't have to be a killing blow, we can try an AC5 or something instead. That way it's low-risk to the shooter. We can try zapping me from various angles to see if any of them don't hit. I think, since so many users start the game and go straight to other people's builds, new users are robbed of the experience of learning GUNNERY as opposed to just learning how to click the "boom" button. If we do this, it might make us forum famous
Edited by Fierostetz, 11 November 2013 - 02:54 PM.
The only evidence of an issue that gets bandied about is the same video. The video Dimento posted is handy, but had a loadout that was suboptimal for demonstrating an issue. Again, if someone wants to group up together, we can cap some video from both perspectives while you shoot at me. Doesn't have to be a killing blow, we can try an AC5 or something instead. That way it's low-risk to the shooter. We can try zapping me from various angles to see if any of them don't hit. I think, since so many users start the game and go straight to other people's builds, new users are robbed of the experience of learning GUNNERY as opposed to just learning how to click the "boom" button. If we do this, it might make us forum famous
The problem isn't the "evidence" to prove that it's a problem with the Spider. The problem is, you could post a billion videos of it happening to a Spider, but that wont prove that it's a "spider only problem". What we need, if anyone can recreate/create the issues, videos similar to the Cataphrat where it shows other mechs besides the Spider being effected by similar issues, if not the same issues. If none can be made, then it would help prove that this is a Spider only problem, as Dimento seems to suggest more often than I think he intends to. Then, that would strongly point to it being specifically a Spider Hit Box problem, which could be fixed much easier than HSR/HR issues... We need more evidence, one way or another, to help solve this case.
Just for the sake of adding it in again before someone blasts me, I'm not saying that nothing is wrong with the Spider. I'm just saying that it might/probably isn't just the Spider but a larger problem overall that is just seen more often with the super thin spider.
And for the sake of saying as well, I do want the spider fixed. I want it to be fixed right however, and not need to be refixed later on or causing additional problems when other "problems" are fixed.
The problem isn't the "evidence" to prove that it's a problem with the Spider. The problem is, you could post a billion videos of it happening to a Spider, but that wont prove that it's a "spider only problem". What we need, if anyone can recreate/create the issues, videos similar to the Cataphrat where it shows other mechs besides the Spider being effected by similar issues, if not the same issues. If none can be made, then it would help prove that this is a Spider only problem, as Dimento seems to suggest more often than I think he intends to. Then, that would strongly point to it being specifically a Spider Hit Box problem, which could be fixed much easier than HSR/HR issues... We need more evidence, one way or another, to help solve this case.
Just for the sake of adding it in again before someone blasts me, I'm not saying that nothing is wrong with the Spider. I'm just saying that it might/probably isn't just the Spider but a larger problem overall that is just seen more often with the super thin spider.
And for the sake of saying as well, I do want the spider fixed. I want it to be fixed right however, and not need to be refixed later on or causing additional problems when other "problems" are fixed.
Poptarts and streakboats are cheese to you, but a mech designed to exploit the broken mechanics of nigh-instant, pinpoint convergence with the highest and longest-range alpha possible is not? The only thing cheesier is probably the AC20/Gauss +2(ER)PPC Highlander poptart.
I'm sorry, but since the gauss nerf, 'instant' isn't even it what it is. Unless you mean, reload+recharge somehow equals 'instant'.
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Dual Gauss is one of the cheesiest build possible against large targets in the same way that streak boats are cheese against lights. Basically at this point you just seem to be complaining because your cheese build isn't as effective against lights as it is against everything else. It's like bitching about how a streaktaro isn't nearly as effective against assaults as it is against lights.
I'm in no way taking advantage of a broken mechanic, and unlike streaks and LRMs, it is 100% dependent on MY aiming skill, unlike LRMs and Streaks where you only have to maintain your targeting reticule in the 'general direction' of the 'mech, being able to take advantage of 360 degree target retention & target decay modules, TAG, BAP, and NARC to enhance your chances of hitting by allowing LRMs and streaks to track longer and when not in view.
The only thing I can think that benefits ballistics/laser users is advanced zoom, and that STILL requires a player's own skill to effectively utilize.
However, with pop-tardz, those idiots take advantage of reduced cockpit shake while jumping up and no cockpit shake while descending, but for them, at least there's an element of skill involved.
Also, I'm not bitching that dual gauss isn't effective against lights. They are INCREDIBLY effective against lights, when I'm not fighting broken hit boxes, malfed hit detection, and f'd up HSR.
Only with the Spider do all the broken mechanics culminate into an occasionally nearly unkillable foe, but it happens often enough that I and darn near EVERY OTHER person who isn't a Spider pilot (and even some Spider pilots) see there's a problem.
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So far the only evidence of a problem specifically with the Spider is inconclusive because it's shown from the target's perspective. It should be looked into, but even if it is Spider-specific, it's not a significant issue, as it is difficult to hit the supposed problem area even intentionally with a cooperative target.
If "it's not a significant issue" why are you seemingly so intent on making sure NOTHING happens.
Anyway here's another one and I've looked at this over and over, frame by frame and as far as I can tell either convergence some how breaks down for a moment on the second round, or the rounds pass "through" the Spider's side torso without registering any damage to the Spider.
I'll continue looking through my archives.
Edited by Dimento Graven, 11 November 2013 - 03:32 PM.
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:
I'm sorry, but since the gauss nerf, 'instant' isn't even it what it is. Unless you mean, reload+recharge somehow equals 'instant'.
I'm in no way taking advantage of a broken mechanic, and unlike streaks and LRMs, it is 100% dependent on MY aiming skill, unlike LRMs and Streaks where you only have to maintain your targeting reticule in the 'general direction' of the 'mech, being able to take advantage of 360 degree target retention & target decay modules, TAG, BAP, and NARC to enhance your chances of hitting by allowing LRMs and streaks to track longer and when not in view.
The only thing I can think that benefits ballistics/laser users is advanced zoom, and that STILL requires a player's own skill to effectively utilize.
However, with pop-tardz, those idiots take advantage of reduced cockpit shake while jumping up and no cockpit shake while descending, but for them, at least there's an element of skill involved.
Also, I'm not bitching that dual gauss isn't effective against lights. They are INCREDIBLY effective against lights, when I'm not fighting broken hit boxes, malfed hit detection, and f'd up HSR.
Only with the Spider do all the broken mechanics culminate into an occasionally nearly unkillable foe, but it happens often enough that I and darn near EVERY OTHER person who isn't a Spider pilot (and even some Spider pilots) see there's a problem.
If "it's not a significant issue" why are you seemingly so intent on making sure NOTHING happens.
Anyway here's another one and I've looked at this over and over, frame by frame and as far as I can tell either convergence some how breaks down for a moment on the second round, or the rounds pass "through" the Spider's side torso without registering any damage to the Spider.
I'll continue looking through my archives.
One hit you took an arm, the other looked like you got boned by convergence. If there was some graphical indication of convergence... that'd be sweet. Dimento - is there room to run a tag in each arm along with the gausses? My thinking is that the TAG laser would help you see where they're converging. I've done it on an erppc spider, running a tag in the same arm. Basically, if the tag hits then the erppc hits. When the TAG laser is on-target your cursor goes red, then it's time to hit. Still though, pinpoint weapons like ppc and gauss are really rough to use against a decent spider pilot. You should run around in a spider for a bit, its good to get to know your enemy
And ignoring the vids were they appear to be fine?
I'm not putting a dog in this fight, but I have to point out that videos where the hitboxes are fine don't prove that the hitboxes are fine if you have other contemporary videos which show they're not - they simply prove that the issue is intermittent.
One hit you took an arm, the other looked like you got boned by convergence. If there was some graphical indication of convergence... that'd be sweet. Dimento - is there room to run a tag in each arm along with the gausses? My thinking is that the TAG laser would help you see where they're converging. I've done it on an erppc spider, running a tag in the same arm. Basically, if the tag hits then the erppc hits. When the TAG laser is on-target your cursor goes red, then it's time to hit. Still though, pinpoint weapons like ppc and gauss are really rough to use against a decent spider pilot. You should run around in a spider for a bit, its good to get to know your enemy
Yeah, convergence somehow going off when the distance hadn't changed significantly from one hit to the next attempt is annoying, and the only two options in this instance seem to be either convergence or hit detection, but again, resolve any of the known issues, and a lot of problems with Spiders go away.
And as far as owning Spiders, I do, I own three: 5D, 5V, and the 5K. All 3 already mastered, so I do have that perspective of being a Spider pilot, and yes, I am sure that there have been times where I should have been dead, but somehow came out with only a little damage. I never bothered mentioning this directly because what would be the point? I'm totally in agreement that videos from the TARGET's perspective aren't really worth much as you can't really determine where the ATTACKER is actually aiming at the time of firing, all you know is, "DAMN THAT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS HEADING FOR MY FACE!!!!", and that's about it, and I'll be damned if I play in 3PV...
Edited by Dimento Graven, 11 November 2013 - 04:02 PM.
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:
I'm sorry, but since the gauss nerf, 'instant' isn't even it what it is. Unless you mean, reload+recharge somehow equals 'instant'.
Instant as in, when it shoots and hits, all of it's damage is "instantly" applied. It isn't distributed over time (lasers), nor is it randomly spread out (missiles). It's all concentrated in one instant "burst" of damage. That is what the term stands for.
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:
I'm in no way taking advantage of a broken mechanic, and unlike streaks and LRMs, it is 100% dependent on MY aiming skill, unlike LRMs and Streaks where you only have to maintain your targeting reticule in the 'general direction' of the 'mech, being able to take advantage of 360 degree target retention & target decay modules, TAG, BAP, and NARC to enhance your chances of hitting by allowing LRMs and streaks to track longer and when not in view.
LRMs require a bit of skill to use well, espesually with ECM and AMS involved. If that's the case, then I want ECM removed from the game or somehow nerfed again, as it prevents me from doing any damage with my LRMs.
TAG takes up an energy slot and a ton of weight, which I could use for a laser for defensive weapons, or for more ammo (if I was litterally just boating). It becomes a "Tax". NARC is a 3 ton base system, with low shots per ton of ammo, and barely does anything, it doesn't cut ECM, that's for sure. BAP does nothing for locks and LRMs, except to now disable nearby ECM. All of which have weight and are suppose to be used in conjunction with LRMs or SSRMs.
Target Decay is only marginally helpful from my findings (I use LRMs a lot), and 360 retention has lost the bulk of it's power when SSRMs could no longer spin around to hit targets behind them. Lock on times have also been diminished, so you loose your lock quicker now than you once did, meaning you have to keep your reticule inside the "little red box" to keep the lock. You lose the lock, you lose tracking on LRMs already in mid air, wasting them. (Each of those modules can still be handy, don't get me wrong.)
LRMs are dependent upon smart play, knowing when and where to shoot, and making sure people stay at arms length away from you. That minimum range really can be a hamper on your day. With LRMs, you have to choose which locks look stead (or get them yourself), and then stand there staring at the target the whole time through. In a sniper fight? You pock your nose out, get a lock, shoot, SLAM! Sniper hits you. Your target then casually goes back behind cover, you lose lock, and missiles hit nothing. LRMs are not a guaranteed hit. And even when they do hit, often times it feels like throwing wet noodles at people. They do damage, but it takes so many shots and so long, that it's hard to do much sometimes. Add in AMS and/or ECM, and LRMs quickly get called out as one of the least effective weapons in the game.
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:
The only thing I can think that benefits ballistics/laser users is advanced zoom, and that STILL requires a player's own skill to effectively utilize.
However, with pop-tardz, those idiots take advantage of reduced cockpit shake while jumping up and no cockpit shake while descending, but for them, at least there's an element of skill involved.
Advance zoom. Cover helps. Being able to shoot, deal your damage, then hide and break locks. Not having a minimum range (PPC excluded). Having your damage more reliably deal it's damage. Not having your damage scatter to the four winds (all over the mech).
Plus. LRMs do require player skills to use. They just require a different set of skills to use "effectively". Want my full opinion and overview of LRMs? I have a link in my signature. Click on it.
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:
Also, I'm not bitching that dual gauss isn't effective against lights. They are INCREDIBLY effective against lights, when I'm not fighting broken hit boxes, malfed hit detection, and f'd up HSR.
Only with the Spider do all the broken mechanics culminate into an occasionally nearly unkillable foe, but it happens often enough that I and darn near EVERY OTHER person who isn't a Spider pilot (and even some Spider pilots) see there's a problem.
And how many people here are arguing that nothing is wrong? (Besides maybe the OP, which I only agree with in part.) It isn't just a spider issue as far as I can tell, but we've gone over that already, haven't we?
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:
Anyway here's another one and I've looked at this over and over, frame by frame and as far as I can tell either convergence some how breaks down for a moment on the second round, or the rounds pass "through" the Spider's side torso without registering any damage to the Spider.
I'll continue looking through my archives.
Funny, you seemed to have hit and destroyed that Spider's arm in one shot. BOOM! Gone! Then, your second shot missed from as far as I can tell (bumping up the quality to highest available) going between the arm (that isn't there) and the side torso, exploding on the hill just a little behind the Spider. I didn't see anything off in that short clip. Explain again what went wrong? And how old is that video?
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 04:01 PM, said:
Yeah, convergence somehow going off when the distance hadn't changed significantly from one hit to the next attempt is annoying, and the only two options in this instance seem to be either convergence or hit detection, but again, resolve any of the known issues, and a lot of problems with Spiders go away.
And as far as owning Spiders, I do, I own three: 5D, 5V, and the 5K. All 3 already mastered, so I do have that perspective of being a Spider pilot, and yes, I am sure that there have been times where I should have been dead, but somehow came out with only a little damage. I never bothered mentioning this directly because what would be the point? I'm totally in agreement that videos from the TARGET's perspective aren't really worth much as you can't really determine where the ATTACKER is actually aiming at the time of firing, all you know is, "DAMN THAT LOOKED LIKE IT WAS HEADING FOR MY FACE!!!!", and that's about it, and I'll be damned if I play in 3PV...
Sidenote - have you tried pairing the gauss...es? with TAGS? I know it wouldn't be super effective unless you're in a 4man with missile boats, but it *would* give you an instant visual reference for your convergence.
I'm not putting a dog in this fight, but I have to point out that videos where the hitboxes are fine don't prove that the hitboxes are fine if you have other contemporary videos which show they're not - they simply prove that the issue is intermittent.
Hey there Void! The debate here is more or less, Is it hit boxes? Is it HSR? Is it HR (Hit Registry)? And the final question is "How can we tell which it might be?" Could be all three. Could be just HSR and HR (PGI knows of those issues). Videos showing a problem with the spider right now are (technically) contaminated by HSR and HR, and all of the old "hit box issues" and "holes" previously found can no longer seem to be duplicated in Testing Grounds (a place where at least HSR doesn't take effect).
I'm leading to believe that, though the Spider might have some hit box issues still (unknown), it might be a different problem with the Spider. Hit Boxes aren't so intermittent, but HSR (constantly changing based on ping) and Hit Regestry (feeds off HSR and it's own mechanics) would be more likely to cause such an intermittent feel to a problem.
Most of us here are in general agreement that the problem probably lies in HSR and HR, but the spider might have other hit box problems we can't determine due to other problems interfering with tests.
Oh sure! My point was just that videos of things working right can't be used to accuse someone of ignoring contrary evidence when we have videos from the same timeframe showing things going wrong. All that combination of evidence means is that whatever's causing the issue(s) has an intermittent effect, not that someone's "ignoring" contrary data.
I'm not putting a dog in this fight, but I have to point out that videos where the hitboxes are fine don't prove that the hitboxes are fine if you have other contemporary videos which show they're not - they simply prove that the issue is intermittent.
Stop and think about that for a bit... hitbox's are static. It's an invisible 'box' or 'boxes' tied to a model... The systems that check wether or not a weapon 'hits' and how the damage allocated on the other hand is a dynamic system, as is the host rewind system (hsr). The fact that the problem is intermittent, points to a something other than hitboxes.
We need to keep in mind also, pgi has stated hit detection/allocation issues with 'ballistic' weapons and SRM's? So what do you have left? Lasers, LRM's and PPC's? ....and viewing how ppc works, it could fall within or is treated as a 'ballistic' weapon by the hit system also. To call for, to expect immediate changes to mech designs with those issues above, when essentially most the weapon/damage system is not working correctly, is...to be blunt, asinine.
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Oh sure! My point was just that videos of things working right can't be used to accuse someone of ignoring contrary evidence when we have videos from the same timeframe showing things going wrong. All that combination of evidence means is that whatever's causing the issue(s) has an intermittent effect, not that someone's "ignoring" contrary data.
That is dependent on the timing and statements made...
Not actually. My statement is correct independent of whether or not it is applicable to the current case. That's why I said "from the same timeframe." Since I've not done the research to jump either way, I've restricted myself to pointing out logical procedure - whether or not the videos are contemporary is another question. =)
As far as hitboxes, you should stop and think a bit yourself. Simply because the hit boxes do not move on the 'mech model does not mean that their placement cannot cause intermittent difficulties. For example, one hypothesis I've heard is that the Spider's hitboxes are overlapping (either statically or during movement of limbs/torsos,) causing the game to become confused when two hitboxes are triggered at once - possibly interacting with the hit registration system to "lose" hits, particularly with hitscan weapons. If this is indeed part or all of the issue, the root cause would still be the hitboxes, even though hit registration is still involved. The testing grounds can't give us definitive help with this, because as noted above, it's different from a live environment in important ways.
In the end, I don't think any of us can definitively identify the problem - which gives rise to "that 'mech's not broken, you're just stupid and bad" threads that have been popping up and/or resurrecting.
Dimento Graven, on 11 November 2013 - 03:30 PM, said:
I'm sorry, but since the gauss nerf, 'instant' isn't even it what it is. Unless you mean, reload+recharge somehow equals 'instant'.
I was referring to the convergence being almost instant. This make aiming extremely easy. Even more so than it already is, since most targets are huge and slow-moving.
This is also part of the reason it's not particularly effective against small mechs like the Spider, as you have to lead the target, which means that due to convergence, at least one of your shots is probably going to miss.
I occasionally run a dual-Gauss Catapult, and it's ridiculous how overpowered it is. I only use it when I'm tired of dealing with all the cheese in the game and want to abuse some of my own.
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I'm in no way taking advantage of a broken mechanic, and unlike streaks and LRMs, it is 100% dependent on MY aiming skill, unlike LRMs and Streaks where you only have to maintain your t [...] They are INCREDIBLY effective against lights, when I'm not fighting broken hit boxes, malfed hit detection, and f'd up HSR.
Yeah, it requires a moderate amount of aiming skill. (And being the fastest projectiles, Gauss takes about the least aiming skill of any AC, other than the AC2). In return for requiring a tiny amount of skill, you get a 30-point alpha that's generally going to go exactly where you want it. From up to 660m, and still dealing significant damage up to 1000m. It's taking advantage of a poorly-designed system, if nothing else. It is far more powerful than it should be, and most mechs can't compete, since they can't use a pair of Gauss or AC20s.
(Ironically, the Jager's own bugged hitboxes make it more difficult to destroy arms, mitigating the one potential drawback of Gauss rifles on a Jager.)
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Only with the Spider do all the broken mechanics culminate into an occasionally nearly unkillable foe, but it happens often enough that I and darn near EVERY OTHER person who isn't a Spider pilot (and even some Spider pilots) see there's a problem.
If "it's not a significant issue" why are you seemingly so intent on making sure NOTHING happens.
I'm intent on making sure the Spider isn't nerfed into oblivion because people can't understand that the significant problem isn't with the Spider at all.
It's exactly what happened to the Ravens. 3L was overpowered because it had streaks, ECM, and went 150 KPH, making it almost un-hittable because there was no HSR at all. So they nerfed the leg hitboxes of all Ravens, rather than doing something sensible like reducing the 3L engine cap to match the other Ravens. Then HSR came along and suddenly Ravens had ridiculously large leg hitboxes because they tried to 'fix' the Raven despite there not being any legitimate problem with it (the overall chassis; the 3L specifically was pretty overpowered).
As they improve HSR, the Spider will cease to display any significant issues. Whereas if they nerf the Spider now, then improve HSR, suddenly the Spider is going to be worse than the Locust because the problem was never with the Spider itself in the first place.
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First shot took out an arm.
You just completely missed on the second. Aimed over the Spider's head. Projectiles went over the Spider's head.
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Tesunie, on 11 November 2013 - 01:29 PM, said:
