191 replies to this topic

[d34th4nd]

ShinVector, on 05 November 2013 - 05:09 PM, said:

Uhhhh... No... This is why my Jenner K is fully kitted out for Scouting.. BAP + Seismic + Advance Sensor + Target Info + 4th Module is what ever you want.

Seismic turned into a crutch including myself as, it was TOO good. It is time for people to start using line of sight.
ECM will be a problem but if is just 1 ECM mech.. BAP will cancel it out and allies will know i am in trouble.

i do see your point and appreciate your opinion but sometimes we have to pug and pugs arnt the best at helping out for the team. i find sometimes theirs a little to much call of duty tdm mentality in people who just run in and die and your left trying to be a team player and feel ah well that failed, so if me being a team player is wrong then i can only bow to your humble and superior wisdom and concede

[veri745]

I welcome the nerf, and although this is one instance where I wouldn't have minded some more complexity (variable "seismic event" frequency based on speed and tonnage), I can see why they went simple.

I also wouldn't mind if they increased the radius of seismic a little, now that it can only detect mechs while standing still.

The seismic sensor as it was before was a wall-hack, plain and simple.

Anybody whining because "they took away my valuable toys" is just QQing.

Edited by veri745, 05 November 2013 - 05:17 PM.

[Frogfire]

Kataiser, on 05 November 2013 - 04:31 PM, said:

New Seismic is balanced. The old one was atrociously overpowered, and now it takes something representing thought to use. Hit X, scan minimap, walk on. If you play cautiously, you can still advance and get seismic data pretty effectively. Lights aren't hit as hard with the nerf for IDing enemies before engagement (due to faster accel/decel)..

This nerf was necessary and makes MWO a much better game.

I have to disagree with you on lights. Stopping to see if there is anything moving within 180 meters (250 with advanced) is risky indeed. Even with better acceleration, it takes around 2 seconds to get back up to full speed - which is plenty of time to train weapons on the weakling.
Speed is the only defense lights have (and cover of course, but that goes for all) - so having to give that up is a big deal.

I also don't see how it is balanced. This game isn't like others, where every class has to perform equal to every other class. A locust needs an exceptional pilot, and lots of luck, to take down an atlas. There is no balance there.
On the other hand, if same locust get in close and spot for missiles and distract the atlas while his team takes aim, then he plays his vital part. And for that role it is no good to stand still to learn who else is creeping up from behind the hills.

I think this leads to a less tactical game and more first person shootout.

[ShinVector]

d34th4nd, on 05 November 2013 - 05:15 PM, said:

i do see your point and appreciate your opinion but sometimes we have to pug and pugs arnt the best at helping out for the team. i find sometimes theirs a little to much call of duty tdm mentality in people who just run in and die and your left trying to be a team player and feel ah well that failed, so if me being a team player is wrong then i can only bow to your humble and superior wisdom and concede

Agreed. But that is another problem "ELO MM sucks for lights Cough!!" altogether.

But I do believe this is going be buff for lights. I missed being able to 1v1 an Atlas with ninja tactics without him being able to TRACK my movement 100% of the time with freaking Autocannons.
I get a feeling these tactics will return and increase the light mech's survivability.

Also... TUNNEL RUSH !!!

[d34th4nd]

ShinVector, on 05 November 2013 - 05:26 PM, said:

Agreed. But that is another problem "ELO MM sucks for lights Cough!!" altogether.

But I do believe this is going be buff for lights. I missed being able to 1v1 an Atlas with ninja tactics without him being able to TRACK my movement 100% of the time with freaking Autocannons.
I get a feeling these tactics will return and increase the light mech's survivability.

Also... TUNNEL RUSH !!!

i have to say mind that earlier i had a game on crimson straight and was being a cap warrior (i know please don't hate me i just want to finish this locust) but enemy lights came to stop me which is fair enough and i managed to evade and lose them in the buildings, and the thought went through my mind "well wouldn't have been able to do that with the seismic, so the point i am making is i guess there are pros and cons, guess some of us will have to re learn how to play. and i agree i do miss some of the one on ones especially the ones i used to have before 12v12

[Adeptus Odren]

Personally, I'm not too annoyed with the changes to seismic. But I do hope for is that they boost the detection range back to what it was before. 400 meters, I think. That way, mechs standing still to use it don't have to stand too near the enemy lines.

[Lindonius]

I've had situations with other games where they nerfed premium items after (in one case A DAY after) I bought them (with real money).

The current state of the legalese with regards to protecting the consumer in the area of purchasing "virtual items" is very much in favour of the game companies at the moment.

You know those nice shiny hero mechs you have sitting in your mechbays? They're not yours (and neither are the mech bays). They're PGI's and PGI can do whatever the frack they like to them. This includes nerfing the 30% cbill bonus if they choose.

They can certainly nerf items that people didn't even have to pay real money for without batting an eyelid.

Of course antagonising your player base may lead to loss of further revenue but in terms of the legalese of fiddling with your premium purchases after you've bought them they are completely within their rights to do what they like.

Edited by Lindonius, 05 November 2013 - 09:46 PM.

[LastPaladin]

NuclearPanda, on 05 November 2013 - 12:36 PM, said:

No one forced you to spend 48 million CBills. Not only that, but this was clearly announced more than a month ago. Where was the forum outcry then?

#1 - We're not in beta anymore. If you make a deal to deliver an item, then change that item after payment is received, it's fraud.
#2 - I, and plenty of others, did voice our concerns with this nerf when it was proposed. Don't blame us if those comments were lost in the chorus of "Yay nerf the wallhack!" comments.

veri745, on 05 November 2013 - 05:16 PM, said:

Anybody whining because "they took away my valuable toys" is just QQing.

Meh. Expecting reimbursement when they pull a bait and switch like this is not QQing, it's a pretty reasonable demand.

[LastPaladin]

Durant Carlyle, on 05 November 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:

Are you going to ask for a C-Bill refund for every item you didn't think you got your money's worth out of? lol

There's a huge difference between being dissatisfied with an item that performs as advertised, and being dissatisfied that an item that no longer performs as advertised. One is a "caveat emptor" type of situation, and the other is fraud.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Seismic was immediately upon release the only "must have" module. It needed a nerf. It needed a nerf on day one.

If everyone "must have" it to be competitive, then it's no longer a choice, it's a tax ... just like DHS.

I haven't tried it yet (edit: since the nerf), but I still would have spent GXP to unlock it, and C-Bills to buy it. I probably would have only bought two, and not four (maybe five ... I think I sold one accidentally).

I will be happy to see pre-seismic tactics (like backstabbing with lights) come back.

Further edit: come to think of it, it was seriously overpowered on day one ... then they scaled down the range. Since then, it hasn't been as overpowered, but in almost every 'mech, the question was, "install seismic sensor, and what other modules?", not "which modules should I install?" There wasn't a real choice.

Edited by Kageru Ikazuchi, 05 November 2013 - 09:32 PM.

[Steinkrieg]

I would like my GXP and my C-Bills refunded for the module, and the module removed from my inventory. I would not have purchased it if I had known that this change was the end result of the module. I am still regretting my purchase of the Heavy Metal because of the vomit inducing nature of the cockpit shake that was added at a later date. I have my fingers crossed that the shake reduction module lets me play my HM again without having to strip the JJ out of it.

[Durant Carlyle]

This is a free-to-play game, and it will be tweaked and adjusted on a fairly frequent basis for the rest of its life. This was an adjustment of an overpowered item. There was no fraud.

You did not spend real money on the module. If you used Premium Time, you simply earned virtual money and virtual experience faster. It cannot be fraud.

Yes, I had several Seismic Sensor modules. Yes, I purchased both levels in the Pilot Tree. Do I have the Seismic Sensors now? No, I sold them. Am I disappointed that the Seismic Sensor is no longer as powerful as it was? Yes. Was it fraud? Nope.

[Arch Angel 09]

I tend to agree with Durant in that the game is free to play and the fact is that no physical money changed hands to receive the seismic module so PGI is well within their rights to balance an over powered module that anyoe in h gam has access to. I will say again that paying for premium time has nothing to do with modules as they can all be earned in time for free. if you chose to get premium time to speed up your revenue to gain these items quicker that is a choice you have made and that was not forced on you. The game will always be changing and balancing so if you are upset about the change to seismic than you might has well never buy anything in the game again because just as all the other things in the game (ppcs, ac2's, uac5's, guass) they will eventually be balanced so as to make pilot skill more important than setting up the current meta.

Edited by Arch Angel 09, 05 November 2013 - 09:47 PM.

[Lindonius]

Steinkrieg, on 05 November 2013 - 08:31 PM, said:

I would like my GXP and my C-Bills refunded for the module, and the module removed from my inventory. I would not have purchased it if I had known that this change was the end result of the module. I am still regretting my purchase of the Heavy Metal because of the vomit inducing nature of the cockpit shake that was added at a later date. I have my fingers crossed that the shake reduction module lets me play my HM again without having to strip the JJ out of it.

LastPaladin, on 05 November 2013 - 07:12 PM, said:

There's a huge difference between being dissatisfied with an item that performs as advertised, and being dissatisfied that an item that no longer performs as advertised. One is a "caveat emptor" type of situation, and the other is fraud.

[Frogfire]

It is never so bad, that it isn't good for nothing. Lets see how this new world with different seismics turn out. It certainly increase the usefulness of UAVs and their new xp benefit. And though scouts go a bit blinder, so does the ones trying to track him. Seismics went from very good to situational, and that is probably how modules should be.

I took a stab from the other side, in the Atlas - and found seismics still useful. When you stop, or get stuck or bump into each other - you get a short flash of what is going on, which can be enough.
It will be interesting to see what it does to fights, and learn how you can make good use of your own seismics, now that most lack surround vision.

Things change, and they will again. Maybe later something else will reintroduce the joy of seismics, and then those xp are well placed. Besides, we had the pleasure while it lasted - and hopefully used the opportunity to earn xp for our replacement modules.

Don't expect refunds. And if you bought six of these expensive things, rather than swap one out, then you probably had the millions to spare. You still get half back from regular sale. Skill resets can be messy and the module is still working - just to a different effect. So it is best to accept it, me thinks.

Edited by Frogfire, 06 November 2013 - 12:46 AM.

[Legion]

PGI I just want to say thank you for making the gxp and credits I payed for this module wasted. Only reason to use this now is on missle support otherwise you should never be standing still. Now can I have my gxp and credits back and you can have the module back ?

[NoiseCrime]

Kageru Ikazuchi, on 05 November 2013 - 07:22 PM, said:

Further edit: come to think of it, it was seriously overpowered on day one ... then they scaled down the range. Since then, it hasn't been as overpowered, but in almost every 'mech, the question was, "install seismic sensor, and what other modules?", not "which modules should I install?" There wasn't a real choice.

I disagree, the problem wasn't that it was overpowered so everyone had it, the problem is for most mech builds it was the only useful module. Other modules are nice (extra sensor range, faster detection), but none offered a real benefit like Seismic did and you'd only choose some of the other modules if your build needed it (adv vision for snipers, longer tracking for LRM).

So its not that seismic was some super power, just everything else is so completely lacklustre, that honestly if I did get a GXP refund I wouldn't know what to spend it on. Personally I see this as yet another problem with the game, leveling up and playing gives you no meaningful rewards, other than Basic and a couple of Elite trees, which don't take that long to achieve. You can max out both trees in what 30-40 games at most, then your done, so what do you get when you start hitting hundreds of games played with a mech?

[NoiseCrime]

Arch Angel 09, on 05 November 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

The game will always be changing and balancing so if you are upset about the change to seismic than you might has well never buy anything in the game again because just as all the other things in the game (ppcs, ac2's, uac5's, guass) they will eventually be balanced so as to make pilot skill more important than setting up the current meta.

lol - the game will never been balanced as you can simply never balance a game such as this unless every weapon costs and acts the same. There will always be a meta, there will always be min-max players, thats just the nature of gaming.

Also I find it really bizarre that you and others happily encourage players who feel disenfranchised with these changes to leave or stop paying money for the game, as though it doesn't need the broadest range of players possible to survive, both financially and in terms of player base.

As for others claiming you didn't lose real money, that is completely irrelevant, time is money, investment is time, time that could easily have been invested in another game that doesn't constantly screw you over.

Its one thing to completely change how something works in the game, its something else to not realise how much it will annoy your player base, but make no effort to compensate them, such as the monumentally simple task of removing seismic modules from players inventories and refunding both the GXP and CB's, allowing them to choose whether or not they want to re-purchase it.

Edited by NoiseCrime, 06 November 2013 - 02:35 AM.

[Ensaine]

NoiseCrime, on 06 November 2013 - 02:34 AM, said:

lol - the game will never been balanced as you can simply never balance a game such as this unless every weapon costs and acts the same. There will always be a meta, there will always be min-max players, thats just the nature of gaming.

Also I find it really bizarre that you and others happily encourage players who feel disenfranchised with these changes to leave or stop paying money for the game, as though it doesn't need the broadest range of players possible to survive, both financially and in terms of player base.

As for others claiming you didn't lose real money, that is completely irrelevant, time is money, investment is time, time that could easily have been invested in another game that doesn't constantly screw you over.

Its one thing to completely change how something works in the game, its something else to not realise how much it will annoy your player base, but make no effort to compensate them, such as the monumentally simple task of removing seismic modules from players inventories and refunding both the GXP and CB's, allowing them to choose whether or not they want to re-purchase it.

^This.... all of it.

My main reason for toting Seismic was to defeat the WAY overpowered ECM. How ECM can still cloak an entire team is beyond me, yet they hack this module down.

As I also play War Thunder, they recently had some DOS attacks on their network, affecting the game servers/login servers. What did Gaijin do?
Extended all activated premium time by 12 hours, and extended an event, and are going to repeat the event next weekend, where the event pays out PREMIUM game currency, and extended all sales.

^ THAT is caring about your customers. I ponied up for the $80 package, which was on sale for $60.

I don't see anyone in this thread crying about the loss of a useful item, which it was, IMO, the only real counter to ECM.

It's the outright disregard for their customers. What NoiseCrime suggests is really the only right thing to do, wipe and refund, let 'em buy it again if they want it, at a reduced cost to reflect it's drop in function.

These guys have absolutely NO common sense at all.

[NuclearPanda]

Ensaine, on 05 November 2013 - 02:08 PM, said:

I'm still patching, so I won't speak to it's usefulness .... yet.

Anyone who hasn't paid it's unlock Rank 2 cost, and tossed 6 million C-Bills at this thing please drive through.

What irks me to no end, is the cost paid, and not for the actual module, but the thousands of GXP we paid to unlock rank 2. I bought mine within the first few days of it being out, and I bought it based on it's face value.. THEN.

Now, it's much less of a module, and much less of value. PGI should at least refund down the surplus everyone paid vs. say the cost of the 360 module and it's unlock.

I highly doubt ANYONE would have paid the premium prices this thing cost if it said in the tooltip 'will be greatly nerfed in November'.

I bought a gold watch. Only mere months ago, and now, the gold is turning green, thus, NOT gold. It still keeps time, still ticks, and the little glowy thingy's still glow. But I want most of my expense back.

It's not the gold watch that was advertised, nor the one I thought I paid for.

That GXP comes way too slowly........I'd like a portion of my GXP refunded. I'll learn to roll with the module.

NOT refunding down just shows how dickish PGI is.

I have to agree that there should be some refund. A signifigant one? No, but definitely some sort of credit.

NoiseCrime, on 05 November 2013 - 02:25 PM, said:

So who do I contact to get my 15k GXP and 12 million CB's refunded?

Man what a waste and this is the second time they've nerfed something i've invested time, effort and money into in my short career in MWO. I wrote the first off to it still being in beta, but this is just a kick in the teeth and reduces any faith I have in anything in the game not changing down the line.

Was it overpowered, I don't think so, but now its pretty much useless for my mechs because I don't tend to stand still since thats a guarantee to getting shot and when I do stand still its only when I know there aren't any enemy mechs around me.

Even so if the majority wanted it nerfed so be it, but be fair, delete my modules and refund me the GXP and CB's so I can re-invest in something else. As it stands now it feels like i've wasted considerable investiment and thats not a good emotion for a game to generate in its players.

See my previous posts about actually using cover with your team and moving up and around THROUGH cover. Move up, park behind a hill for a moment, see if something is coming using seismic.

A) Nothing coming? Good. Rinse and repeat.

Something coming? Good. You saw it. Act accordingly with your new intel.

kravkalash, on 05 November 2013 - 02:37 PM, said:

It's not about agreeing with the change or not, it's about dealing with changing game mechanics. Players should be able to get a full refund on their current seismic modules, if they bought them because they did something that they no longer can do. If they don't want to sell them, also fine, but they now have something that's worth less (not worthless). The current seismic module is no longer worth the 6 mill, it's now more in line with the other modules (2-4 mill).

I'd say 4 million is adequete for the module cost, and I would agree with a refund of the difference (to an extent. Those complaining about spending 40 million cbills should know better lol).