910 replies to this topic

[-Natural Selection-]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 19 November 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Pugging ain't 12's. That is just a fact. 12mans are another creature entirely. In 12mans any hot high alpha build good for pugging is bad. Steady and concentrated fire rules there.

Ohh I am sorry. You think because someone says 12v12 in any form it refers to the 1% club. Stand down hero, I know what I am saying.

[Drunk Canuck]

Mordin Ashe, on 06 November 2013 - 10:54 PM, said:

The obvious elephant in the room time.
AMS, anyone?

I run around with two on my Jester and my Stalker and both have 3 tons of ammo. I have seen that ammo disappear within two minutes during most matches. LRM's need heat penalties I think, you shouldn't be able to put 45-60 damage into someone from behind a rock in a single alpha with short cool down times and no heat penalty or forced exposure.

[Drunk Canuck]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 19 November 2013 - 07:38 AM, said:

Pugging ain't 12's. That is just a fact. 12mans are another creature entirely. In 12mans any hot high alpha build good for pugging is bad. Steady and concentrated fire rules there.

LRM's are not OP. But can be good for pugging as ManaValkyrie said anyone outside of ecm and ams is fair game. Tossing lrm's quite often myself. I can say we DO look for that. See alot of AMS change target until you do not. Then pour it on.

Lol you clearly don't play comp 12's then because 2 ppc + gauss or ac/20 is fotm. AC40 builds are also common, crush anything in two alpha's or less.

[Mercules]

Drunk Canuck, on 19 November 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

LRM's need heat penalties I think, you shouldn't be able to put 45-60 damage into someone from behind a rock in a single alpha with short cool down times and no heat penalty or forced exposure.

Um... it is spread all over the mech and SOMEONE is exposed so that they can lock on. Kill that guy.

[Shalune]

Alistair Winter, on 07 November 2013 - 04:41 AM, said:

If you find yourself and your teammates being destroyed by LRMs, have a quick look around and see how many ECM mechs are nearby. The Raven 3L on your team has been replaced by a JR7-F, the Cicada has been replaced by a Blackjack or Shadowhawk and the Atlas DDC is probably replaced by a Highlander or Battlemaster. Your ECM Spider is probably on the other side of the map, instead of giving ECM cover to your team.

Teams that still rock the ECM are doing fine. Teams that are dominated by Phoenix package builds are being pummeled by LRMs. How many people are actually using the dual AMS builds these days? Atlas K? Nope. Stalker 5S? Nope. Locust 5M with dual AMS? Nope. Jester? Maybe 25% of the Jesters I've seen have dual AMS.

Give me two teams that both have LRM boats, while only one team has decent ECM cover. 9 times out of 10, the team with ECM wins.

You already answered your own question here. The problem is one team is playing smartly and the other is not. If pugs got you down, find an organized group to roll with.

[Alistair Winter]

Shalune, on 19 November 2013 - 06:37 PM, said:

You already answered your own question here. The problem is one team is playing smartly and the other is not. If pugs got you down, find an organized group to roll with.

Uh... no? The difference is the ECM. How did you miss that, given what I wrote? All else being equal, a team with ECM will beat a team without ECM. The same cannot be said for other pieces of equipment, like jump jets or BAP.

[Blacke]

Zyllos, on 19 November 2013 - 07:50 AM, said:

Here is the problem, in my opinion:

• LRMs are binary.
  
  • Going up against ECM, LRMs are underpowered.
    
  • Going up against no ECM, LRMs are overpowered.

This seems quite fair and intentional to me. promotes well balanced teams.

Quote

• LRM spotting requires too little input.
  
  • Just select a target you see, everyone in the game gets to target it.
    
  • TAG/NARC is just used to only get around ECM.

Plenty of people get killed trying to spot for LRMs. Tag is very important, if I have a tag spotter it is the difference between a 40 point game ad a 800 point game.

Quote

• LRM's poor balance between launcher sizes.
  
  • LRM/5s and LRM/10s are much more efficient in concentrated damage and less use of ammo. This is ignoring their lower weight and critical slot requirements, which is also better.

A single AMS will make a mech with LRM5s useless if he chain fires. If he alpha fires it is only 20 to 25 a shot vs 50 to 60 a shot for larger launchers. Also firing 4 LM5s simultaneously spreads the missiles the same as firing a LRM20.

Quote

• No active/passive radar system.
  
  • No ways to pull yourself off the target list with the drawback of not being able to select a target yourself.

It I quite easy to shield yourself with terrain, get out of LOS, get under ECM, or the protection of friendly AMS. Only people who blindly choose to be out in the open or are unlucky enough to get caught out in the open get hammered by missiles.

Quote

• No difference between radar ranges with various mech designs.
  
  • An Atlas is just as good as a Locust in it's radar range.

Yet there are BAP's and sensor range modules which stack and change your effective radar range.

Quote

• No distinction between Indirect and Direct fire LRMs.
  
  • Direct fire should be shorter, lower flight paths, and faster to give players a chance to easily land shots against a target at medium ranges at the cost if inefficiency.
    
  • Indirect fire should be longer, higher flight paths, and slower to give players a chance to hit targets at long range and in some low cover that blocks direct fire weapons at the cost of needed scouting support.

Do you play much with LRMs? There is a big difference between flight path if the target is >300 or <300. At >300 the flight path arches high and you can get over most obstacles. At <300 the flight path is much more direct and even waist high hills often block the missiles. In crimson straight I often hammer people at short range with LRMs underneath the platform in D4 at Kappa.

[Squiggy McPew]

Been away for a few months and whatever they did to lrm I very much like.

Had several 600+ damage games with multiple kills and double digit assists off the same artemis lrm5 cat a1 I have had since launch.

I remember getting 300 and a kill or two with a smattering of assists as a very good game but now as long as my team keeps em lit up the steel rain just obliterates mechs.

[Sandpit]

It's like any other thread complaining about "op" stuff in game. You get a decent team together and 2-3 good support mechs doing their job and it can create chaos for the enemy team. One good scout and 2-3 good lrm boats will rain death down upon enemies. That's what is SUPPOSED to happen. It's called teamwork. You should try it some time. It will do wonders for your win/loss and kdr.

[Mercules]

Sandpit, on 20 November 2013 - 10:07 AM, said:

It's like any other thread complaining about "op" stuff in game. You get a decent team together and 2-3 good support mechs doing their job and it can create chaos for the enemy team. One good scout and 2-3 good lrm boats will rain death down upon enemies. That's what is SUPPOSED to happen. It's called teamwork. You should try it some time. It will do wonders for your win/loss and kdr.

Being the "One good(hopefully, I like to think so) scout" part of that I can attest to the truth of that statement. My friend pugs without a spotter and does "okay" with LRMs. We get at least two of them working Fire Support with LRMs and my spotting and my friends and I tend to shift battles in our team's favor.

[Sandpit]

Mercules, on 20 November 2013 - 10:27 AM, said:

Being the "One good(hopefully, I like to think so) scout" part of that I can attest to the truth of that statement. My friend pugs without a spotter and does "okay" with LRMs. We get at least two of them working Fire Support with LRMs and my spotting and my friends and I tend to shift battles in our team's favor.

Good luck getting some of the players here to understand that though. just beacuse 2-3 mechs are LRM boating and it makes a non-stop rain of fire on your head while you're spotted (nevermind you could find an ECM buddy to stand next to in order to negate this, or find cover, or hid under a bridge, etc.) doesn't make a weapon "op"

[Squiggy McPew]

My best tactic so far in pugs is to type in a sentence or two simply saying stick to your lance, focus fire and keep targets locked for ranged fire support.

Seems to work as unlike most f2p games general populations the pubbies are actually not that bad and can work together with a bit of a nudge unlike that other popular game with armoured vehicles.

Edited by 120mm, 20 November 2013 - 10:38 AM.

[Curccu]

Drunk Canuck, on 19 November 2013 - 08:12 AM, said:

I run around with two on my Jester and my Stalker and both have 3 tons of ammo. I have seen that ammo disappear within two minutes during most matches. LRM's need heat penalties I think, you shouldn't be able to put 45-60 damage into someone from behind a rock in a single alpha with short cool down times and no heat penalty or forced exposure.

There is this thing called ghost heat... which applies to LRMs also (except LRM5)

[Squiggy McPew]

Curccu, on 20 November 2013 - 10:44 AM, said:

There is this thing called ghost heat... which applies to LRMs also (except LRM5)

I'm thinking this is why this build is so good for me atm.

I can literally fire them nonstop unless its a hot map and even then just a short pause will shed enough heat to keep up the stream of death.

[Nightcrept]

I run pretty much all types of builds.

Lrm's are by far the most inconsistent of all the possible builds. It depends far too much on what the enemy team does in comparison to how good you are.

Lrms are currently only good against bad teams.


The largest problem I see with lrms other then the inconsistency deals with the match maker and not lrms themselves.
For some reason when I use lrms the matchmaker seems to place me in games with other lrm boats.

Try swithcing back and forth between a lrm boat and a sniper or brawler build and track the number of lrms you see. For me it's a big differentce.

[Victor Morson]

Anyone who is complaining about "spotters" and indirect fire truly doesn't understand anything at all about LRMs. Indirect fire is mostly a waste of ammunition because even if the lock is maintained, the missiles won't get the group tightening effects of Artemis/Tag and instead of delivering missile after missiles right to the center mass, you'll lightly tickle most of their components and the ground around them.

If someone says indirect firepower is OP, they have no idea what they are talking about.

Likewise, anyone trying to run around "spotting" for LRMs is going to end up dead. The only people that make effective spotters are brawlers, not scouts, because they will be able to maintain lock and linger without being instantly nuked. Nobody does dedicated LRM spotting unless they are terrible.

Good LRM pilots are almost always found sub-750m, running their own TAG and all strive to maintain LOS to get the most tracking/damage per precious ton of ammo.

Edited by Victor Morson, 20 November 2013 - 11:11 AM.

[Squiggy McPew]

Victor Morson, on 20 November 2013 - 11:11 AM, said:

Good LRM pilots are almost always found sub-750m, running their own TAG and all strive to maintain LOS to get the most tracking/damage per precious ton of ammo.

My cat a1 has max armour so I don't mind wading in even at knife fighting range. An alpha of 30 into your chest from an artemis boat at 200m is gonna hurt.

Can't agree about the ranged indirect fire for chained lrm5 though. Even with no artemis los they stay tightly grouped and show maximum coverage of the center areas with minimal spread.

Larger launchers of course will be less effective the bigger they get.

Edited by 120mm, 20 November 2013 - 11:29 AM.

[WVAnonymous]

Joseph Mallan, on 07 November 2013 - 05:28 AM, said:

Fair enough. But wait til this baby shows up! Om Nom Nom
RFL-8D (Rifleman)

Only 12 more years. Right after CW goes live.

[Curccu]

120mm, on 20 November 2013 - 10:54 AM, said:

I'm thinking this is why this build is so good for me atm.

I can literally fire them nonstop unless its a hot map and even then just a short pause will shed enough heat to keep up the stream of death.

and just 1 AMS can neautralize you totally

[Squiggy McPew]

Curccu, on 20 November 2013 - 12:02 PM, said:

and just 1 AMS can neautralize you totally

Not seeing this in game as I can see most mechs are running an ams but I'm still getting kills and assists.

Are you sure this isn't one of those forum urban legends?