910 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 24 February 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Fortunately, you can see the AMS tracer streams from not-seen units engaging a flight.

I actually use it to "scout" approaches. Chuck a shot over a hill, watch for tracers. Hello, hiding peoples. Thank you for drawing me a pointer.

You have a better vid card than me, I don't even see MY AMS rounds in flight!

[Nicholas Carlyle]

wanderer, on 24 February 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

Fortunately, you can see the AMS tracer streams from not-seen units engaging a flight.

I actually use it to "scout" approaches. Chuck a shot over a hill, watch for tracers. Hello, hiding peoples. Thank you for drawing me a pointer.

Yeah I do this a lot too. Though when I see 4 or 5 AMS go off, I basically realize my LRM's are going to be a waste.

[wanderer]

Quote

Yeah I do this a lot too. Though when I see 4 or 5 AMS go off, I basically realize my LRM's are going to be a waste.

It actually helps target priority. Normally,you might think dumping ammo to eventually cripple a scout would be inefficient, but when said scout is outside the AMS umbrella?

Fwoosh fwoosh, baby. You also know at that point you've got to flank or fire at the pointman, because firing into a mass of AMS that gets to rake a salvo front-to-back hurts LRMs worst, as that means you're firing into the longest period of exposure.

[Ngamok]

Kazma, on 24 February 2014 - 05:04 AM, said:

wow, 31 pages already

Wow, 32 pages because the OP comes in and posts a 1 liner every so often so people start commenting on it again.

[Tesunie]

wanderer, on 24 February 2014 - 04:53 AM, said:

I hit with about 25% of my shots as it is- and that's just assuming at least one missile makes it to target.

Actually, if I understand the LRM stats right, it's per missile. That means that 25% of your missiles fired actually hit. Not 25% of volleys have at least one missile hit.

[mogs01gt]

Couldnt this issue be resolved if more Mech's had ECM?

[Joseph Mallan]

mogs01gt, on 24 February 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Couldnt this issue be resolved if more Mech's had ECM?

Goodness no!

Trust me, i was once like you. ECM for everyone! Then we got ECM...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

mogs01gt, on 24 February 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Couldnt this issue be resolved if more Mech's had ECM?

ECM was NEVER an anti-missile system in Battletech.

At best you could've said it might hamper lock on times. But it's current implementation is WAY beyond it's original scope.

And you almost have to make LRM's overpowered in situations where AMS/ECM doesn't exist, because otherwise they completely suck when ECM/AMS are in play.

It's a mess.

ECM needs to stop messing with LRM's, so LRM's can be balanced on their own.

[KnowBuddy]

Ngamok, on 24 February 2014 - 07:55 AM, said:

Wow, 32 pages because the OP comes in and posts a 1 liner every so often so people start commenting on it again.

It is the Necroposter way.

mogs01gt, on 24 February 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Couldnt this issue be resolved if more Mech's had ECM?

There is no issue. LRMs are not a problem. In fact, they're still a bit underpowered from when they were beaten with the nerf stick before ECM was introduced.

And in answer to your question: Yes, LRMs would be almost completely useless if more 'Mechs had ECM, which I remember from when half of the players were running RVN-3Ls and AS7-DDCs after the introduction of ECMadness.

You don't like screen-shake from LRM5s? Equip an AMS. That's what it's for. Oddly enough, that's not what ECM is supposed to be for in BT/MW canon.

www.sarna.com said:

Contemporary guided missiles such as standard LRM or Streak SRMs are not affected by the Guardian suite and will be able to achieve hard lock as normal.^[4]

And I don't particularly like getting tons of screen-shake from AC2 dakka'Mechs from outside of sensor range, but I'm not clamoring for the nerfing of ballistics or the improper implementation of Reactive armor.

Edited by KnowBuddy, 24 February 2014 - 08:50 AM.

[mogs01gt]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 February 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

ECM was NEVER an anti-missile system in Battletech.
At best you could've said it might hamper lock on times. But it's current implementation is WAY beyond it's original scope.
And you almost have to make LRM's overpowered in situations where AMS/ECM doesn't exist, because otherwise they completely suck when ECM/AMS are in play.
It's a mess.
ECM needs to stop messing with LRM's, so LRM's can be balanced on their own.

So what is the issue? Are LRM's becoming annoying to deal with, are ECM's coded wrong or are AMS's not powerful/reliable enough?


IMO Mediums suffer from LRM drama because they have to devote more tonnage to engine and weapons which causes them to leave that AMS out.

Edited by mogs01gt, 24 February 2014 - 08:55 AM.

[wanderer]

Quote

Actually, if I understand the LRM stats right, it's per missile. That means that 25% of your missiles fired actually hit. Not 25% of volleys have at least one missile hit.

Right. Basically, one in every four missiles does damage. At best. I'm actually pulling 22-25% depending on the launcher. Now, add in the fact that it's actually weighted towards the ends (as in, I either hit with a lot or no missiles at all) and you've got an idea of how hard it really can be to land a missile strike.

[KnowBuddy]

mogs01gt, on 24 February 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

So what is the issue? Are LRM's becoming annoying to deal with, are ECM's coded wrong or are AMS's not powerful/reliable enough?

IMO Mediums suffer from LRM drama because they have to devote more tonnage to engine and weapons which causes them to leave that AMS out.

Again, there is no issue, the OP is from November of last year, and the game has not erupted into LRM furballs, it's still PPC+AC5 jump and peek till the logger'Mechs come home.

[mogs01gt]

KnowBuddy, on 24 February 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Again, there is no issue, the OP is from November of last year, and the game has not erupted into LRM furballs, it's still PPC+AC5 jump and peek till the logger'Mechs come home.

There is a whole thread contradicting this post. As a Med pilot, I find LRM's to drive me the craziest due to that ******* light Mech I have to take care of first as LRM's ran on my head. If I could effectively take out the Lights, then I wouldnt find much hate for the LRMs.

I dont find AC's and PPC's to be an issue since I dont play the poptart game. I know not to lol.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

mogs01gt, on 24 February 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

So what is the issue? Are LRM's becoming annoying to deal with, are ECM's coded wrong or are AMS's not powerful/reliable enough?


IMO Mediums suffer from LRM drama because they have to devote more tonnage to engine and weapons which causes them to leave that AMS out.

KnowBuddy, on 24 February 2014 - 08:57 AM, said:

Again, there is no issue, the OP is from November of last year, and the game has not erupted into LRM furballs, it's still PPC+AC5 jump and peek till the logger'Mechs come home.

Well the issue is LRM's have two modes.

One mode is "Oblierate the newbie who doesn't understand LRM's"

The second mode is "Suck because of slow travel time, missile warnings, AMS, ECM and oh if someone steps beyond 1000m or within 180m your missiles don't do anything....oh WAIT and if a mech moves above 100kph perpendicularlly to you it also causes major hit registration issues....OH and on top of that, we decided to ghost heat the hell out of the larger launchers."

ECM needs to at BEST stop missile lock on the ECM mech. Though my preference is still that it makes lock times slower.

AMS also needs to be ONLY for the owner of AMS. The assist system is bad.

Once you do that, you can balance LRM's on their own.

Because right now here is all the different things you need to balance.

LRM 5
LRM 10
LRM 15
LRM 20

2 LRM 5
2 LRM 10
2 LRM 15
2 LRM 20

3 LRM 5
3 LRM 10
3 LRM 15
3 LRM 20

LRM 5 + Art
LRM 10 + Art
LRM 15 + Art
LRM 20 + Art

2 LRM 5 + Art
2 LRM 10 + Art
2 LRM 15 + Art
2 LRM 20 + Art

3 LRM 5 + Art
3 LRM 10 + Art
3 LRM 15 + Art
3 LRM 20 + Art

LRM 5 + Art + TAG
LRM 10 + Art + TAG
LRM 15 + Art + TAG
LRM 20 + Art + TAG

2 LRM 5 + Art + TAG
2 LRM 10 + Art + TAG
2 LRM 15 + Art + TAG
2 LRM 20 + Art + TAG

3 LRM 5 + Art + TAG
3 LRM 10 + Art + TAG
3 LRM 15 + Art + TAG
3 LRM 20 + Art + TAG

LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay
LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay
LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay
LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay

2 LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay
2 LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay
2 LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay
2 LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay

3 LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
3 LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
3 LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
3 LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM

LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM

2 LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
2 LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
2 LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
2 LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM

3 LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
3 LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
3 LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
3 LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM

LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS

2 LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
2 LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
2 LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
2 LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS

3 LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
3 LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
3 LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS
3 LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + AMS

LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM
LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM

2 LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + 2 AMS
2 LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + 2 AMS
2 LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + 2 AMS
2 LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + 2 AMS

3 LRM 5 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + 2 AMS
3 LRM 10 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + 2 AMS
3 LRM 15 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + 2 AMS
3 LRM 20 + Art + TAG + ADV Decay + ECM + 2 AMS

And all of the various other combinations. And UAV. And BAP. And how fast the target moves messing things up.

It's a giant CLUSTER to balance.

Here is a PPC.

PPC...


Here is a Laser...

Laser...

Here is a AC...

AC....

It's a lot easier to balance when you don't have 50 thousand different things that change how an item works.

[KnowBuddy]

mogs01gt, on 24 February 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

There is a whole thread contradicting this post. As a Med pilot, I find LRM's to drive me the craziest due to that ******* light Mech I have to take care of first as LRM's ran on my head. If I could effectively take out the Lights, then I wouldnt find much hate for the LRMs.

I dont find AC's and PPC's to be an issue since I dont play the poptart game. I know not to lol.

I've been around these here forums a long time. There's at least one whole thread contradicting everything. That doesn't mean the sky is falling over every little thing.

Well, could be a bracket issue causing us to see different things, or it could be that things have settled pretty well and are more or less balanced. Everyone will have something that drives them crazy, usually the thing which plays to their weaknesses. STK pilots probably dread the drone of light swarms, lights probably hate getting legged and mediums with streaks and/or good aim(well, light pilots are crazy folks, so maybe everything makes them laugh maniacally), medium pilots have to squeeze every ton out of their 'Mechs and balance everything. This is actually a good thing. The problem is that when something irks us, we see it everywhere even if it's not overwhelmingly prevalent. Noone can actually argue that currently brawling is somewhat infrequent and long range combat is the norm with mostly direct fire weapons.

Edit: note that I pilot a range of 'Mechs, and different things are my bane depending on type and loadout. I recognize my weaknesses and compensate. And when I do use LRMs, it takes quite a bit of skill and luck (mostly luck, I recognize I'm not particularly skilled) to be effective in my experience. This indicates to me that everything is working more or less okay.

Edited by KnowBuddy, 24 February 2014 - 09:21 AM.

[Tesunie]

mogs01gt, on 24 February 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

There is a whole thread contradicting this post. As a Med pilot, I find LRM's to drive me the craziest due to that ******* light Mech I have to take care of first as LRM's ran on my head. If I could effectively take out the Lights, then I wouldnt find much hate for the LRMs.

I dont find AC's and PPC's to be an issue since I dont play the poptart game. I know not to lol.

You mean, indirect fire and team work/support? It's one of the few things that LRMs can do and continue to do well. They are suppose to be a high support system. But, being on the LRM user's side, I also have to depend upon that light keeping a solid lock and not losing the lock, for the whole time my LRMs are in the air to actually help him.

AMS and/or ECM would still help you prevent your situation there, as well as staying near a group (who might also have AMS or ECM). A group can scare/kill a light far faster than most individual mechs can on their own. Kill the spotter, and the LRMs stop being able to come in. (Or just scaring him away.)

KnowBuddy, on 24 February 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Noone can actually argue that currently brawling is somewhat infrequent and long range combat is the norm with mostly direct fire weapons.

Actually, in lore, most fights stayed at longish ranges (med laser range or farther out). Of course, lore does not equal game... Personally I'm happy that the face hugging isn't being used as much as before. I don't mind the longer range engagements happening now. (And I still find I can get close if I wished to, I just don't normally wish to is all.)

[KnowBuddy]

Tesunie, on 24 February 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Actually, in lore, most fights stayed at longish ranges (med laser range or farther out). Of course, lore does not equal game... Personally I'm happy that the face hugging isn't being used as much as before. I don't mind the longer range engagements happening now. (And I still find I can get close if I wished to, I just don't normally wish to is all.)

True, and I have no problem with that. I notice that I'm usually engaged recently at quite a bit further out than med laser range though. My point in jumping into this thread was to wave the "we've been there and it wasn't pretty" flag when ideas of how to make LRMs even less useful/new-player-friendly/PUG-friendly get thrown out. If we were all fighting with feathers which didn't cause bad feelings or anxiety in our opponents, we'd get bored pretty quickly and the game would die.

[Kjudoon]

And of course, so many think there is no skill to running an LRM boat... yet they cannot be effective at it if forced to play one..

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Kjudoon, on 24 February 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

And of course, so many think there is no skill to running an LRM boat... yet they cannot be effective at it if forced to play one..

That bugs me a lot too.

It takes much more spatial awareness to play an LRM boat than any other mech. Suddenly position becomes of the utmost importance.

And due to the fact that your weapons act so much differently than any other weapon in the game, you have to make decisions on whether to stay with the team and potentially get into a position where you can't bring your weapons to the fight.

Or to stay back, end up potentially with no support, so that you are able to do the most damage possible.

It's one of the reasons I feel like the 55 ton mechs are probably the best LRM mechs currently. A combination of the larger launchers not being very good right now and the ability to dictate range better.

On top of all that, you can literally make no defensive manuvers while using LRM's. You have to stare at your opponent and worst case keep TAG on them to keep ECM from breaking lock.

Which means no torso twisting or anything.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 24 February 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[KnowBuddy]

Kjudoon, on 24 February 2014 - 09:54 AM, said:

And of course, so many think there is no skill to running an LRM boat... yet they cannot be effective at it if forced to play one..

Nicholas Carlyle, on 24 February 2014 - 10:08 AM, said:

That bugs me a lot too.

It takes much more spatial awareness to play an LRM boat than any other mech. Suddenly position becomes of the utmost importance.

And due to the fact that your weapons act so much differently than any other weapon in the game, you have to make decisions on whether to stay with the team and potentially get into a position where you can't bring your weapons to the fight.

Or to stay back, end up potentially with no support, so that you are able to do the most damage possible.

It's one of the reasons I feel like the 55 ton mechs are probably the best LRM mechs currently. A combination of the larger launchers not being very good right now and the ability to dictate range better.

On top of all that, you can literally make no defensive manuvers while using LRM's. You have to stare at your opponent and worst case keep TAG on them to keep ECM from breaking lock.

Which means no torso twisting or anything.

Absolutely. When I see anyone use the "LRMs take no skill because all you have to do is get a lock" argument, it just illustrates to me that they have only ever been on the receiving end of a skilled or lucky LRM user, and haven't tried to use LRMs themselves. Just getting a lock is difficult enough, not to mention usually needing to be within 400-700m with direct line of sight, tracking with a TAG, maybe pinging with a PPC, and taking everything full in the CT because it's an all or nothing wait... for... it......... aww, they all went into that hill and did nothing.