103 replies to this topic

[Amechwarrior]

Captain Hat, on 15 November 2011 - 07:49 AM, said:

It doesn't work for an online game.

No, you missed the point entirely.

The point is not that you need the "brand rcognition" but that if you force people to jump through all sorts of ridiculous hoops to get at what is going to be universally regarded as the "best content" in the game (the Clan hardware, which will be the best in the game if it is reproduced 100% faithfully) then a lot of players will very quickly get frustrated and give up: More than that, they will advise their friends not to bother playing at all. Opening without the Clans is fine, but as soon as you introduce them at full power, that's all a lot of people are going to be interested in. As a result, you can't afford to make them just plain better- you have to make them balanced, but different. You don't have a choice.

The only real question is how you do it.

The way you make them balanced but different is the honor-bound play mechanics. If I have a game, and I want player1 2x as powerful as players 2-4 I would design a mode where player1 has to fight enough lesser powerful players so as to reach a balance of victories. I would stack the odds against player 1 in a way that does not effect their power level, via map design, team play advantages and outnumbering the juggernaut. If I just balanced their stats out all of a sudden everyone is at the same level of power, I would have not reason to have player 1 be teamed against players 2-4. Many games have a "juggernaut" game type, later Halos being a casual game I know does, they balance it. It can be done.

You miss where, when introduced to the "best content" they are equally introduced to the massive downsides of Honor Point play. Clan factions would never attain the "best content" status they had in previous games because some kind of Honor Point system would be as much of a big and inseparable stick to the big carrot of Clan firepower. Yes you will get more firepower, speed and range. But you will never not be outnumbered, never be able to gang up and never be able to run away. The Clans quickly lose favor as "best content" when easy and trivial access to Clan firepower comes at the cost being routinely overwhelmed, outnumbered and out tonned. I do not just want Clan lore players to join the Clans.

I want the type of people who think they can take on 3 or 4 'mechs at once and willing to put their cards on the table and prove it. To use CoD Modern Warfare1, the archetype casual gamer game - Prestige Classes - some people got to 55 and said I am fine, I do not care about prestige. These are your casual players, your hardcore players will go for it, up to 10 times, losing and re-earning the same upgrades just to say "look at me!" To use Halo: Reach they have a game run ranked matching system that resets leaderboards every month or whatever, it focuses on harder gametypes then the regular matchmaking play and most never touch it. The Clans would and should attract those kinds of players, ones that actively engage in the harder types of high stakes play. They key to ensuring the Clans do not gain "favored faction" and "best content" status is to meld the ups and the downs together. Previous games just gave you the ups, no downs. Market Clan factions as extra challenge, inform the players that yes you might be 50% or 100% stronger, but can you use that to beat 2 or 3 players of equal skill at once?

As for "force people to jump through all sorts of ridiculous hoops to get at what is going to be universally regarded as the "best content" in the game" this does not stop WoW players from going into high level, high risk raids for epic loot. Getting to level 80 or 85 or whatever could itself be seen as an incredibly long and boring set of hoops to jump through, yet they are the standard that all MMORPGs must overcome. Jumping through silly hoops is the bread and butter of most massive games.

As for posters wondering "What about when Clan tech gets into IS hands?" - This should never come up as a problem. We know the Clans are coming, we know we can only be IS for now. Clan tech will find its way into the game regardless if we can play as Clan pilots. The developers are forced to answer this question in the stock game already. The problem of Clan tech in IS hands is not the same problem as "Should we be able to play as Clans and fight IS forces?"

@Frantic Pryde - I would like your post (#58) but am out of likes for now. Dishonorable Clan play would actually cause them to slide back down the ranks.

[GreyGriffin]

Amechwarrior, on 15 November 2011 - 11:42 AM, said:

As for posters wondering "What about when Clan tech gets into IS hands?" - This should never come up as a problem. We know the Clans are coming, we know we can only be IS for now. Clan tech will find its way into the game regardless if we can play as Clan pilots. The developers are forced to answer this question in the stock game already. The problem of Clan tech in IS hands is not the same problem as "Should we be able to play as Clans and fight IS forces?"

This absolutely is the same question.

If Clantech is available to all, but only Clan players are bound by some kind of honor/grief system, then how is that fair to the Clan players? Or, if just by using a Clan 'Mech, you are bound by honor rules, how is that true to the lore? It's lose-lose.

In a competitive multiplayer game of this kind, you can't use boundaries for entry as a game balancing mechanism. As a gameplay carrot? Absolutely. But the gameplay carrot can't be "winning," not and be able to retain a robust environment where all players are able to meaningfully contribute to a match. Economy is not the answer, and for the same reason, slowing advancement for dezgra behavior is not the answer. The end result is the same, it's just more annoying to get there for both sides.

Furthermore, to argue lore, Zellbrigen is a courtesy. It is etiquette that is extended to honorable opponents, and abiding by the rules of zellbrigen is essentially a way to argue in court that your trial was fair and honorable - in Clan society, honorable actions are correct actions. However, much as bidding and batchall have a frequently overlooked component (the winning bidder has available as reinforcements a number of troops equal to the difference between his bid and the second-lowest bid), the breech of zellbrigen and the invitation for a free-for-all as a tactical maneuver has a lot of historical precedent - witness Aidan Pryde's first Trial of Position, as one example. Breaking zellbrigen is an admission that you can't win the combat honorably, but it is more dishonorable to lose a trial for your Clan than to double team an enemy 'mech.

As an aside, I would not be opposed to slower overall advancement for Clan characters in exchange for bonuses for conducting battle by the rules of Zellbrigen, but that has nothing to do with the core gameplay mechanics within the sim. And the nature of zellbrigen in Battletech fluff is an argument for another thread.

We have to break this down. At its core, MWO is not a Battletech Universe Simulator. It is a giant robot action game with heavy simulation elements. Within that gameplay paradigm, the game has to be fun, balanced, and polished. Forget, for a moment, the conceits of planetary level strategy or interfaction conflict: it is neither fun nor balanced to have one side that is massively OP in an action game, barring extraordinary exceptions (again, L4D). The meta game should emerge from the gameplay, not vice versa, and players should not be hamstrung for playing the way that they want to.

[Canned Heat]

UncleKulikov, on 13 November 2011 - 04:04 PM, said:

Lots of people in WOT utilize teamspeak to win.

Saying that, Clan weapons being better is fine. As long as the balance for both teams takes that into account, namely that better things are more "expensive' to bring onto your team.

Bringing anything about WoT here should be agaisnt the rules unless its about how bad it is. From what i gather in terms of history and clan protocol no one will have clan stuff.

[Amechwarrior]

"What about when Clan tech gets into IS hands?"

GreyGriffin, on 15 November 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

This absolutely is the same question.

If Clantech is available to all, but only Clan players are bound by some kind of honor/grief system, then how is that fair to the Clan players? Or, if just by using a Clan 'Mech, you are bound by honor rules, how is that true to the lore? It's lose-lose.

Then are you suggesting no Clan weaponry will never ever make it into the hands of MWO players? However they choose to balance Clan salvage either by high stakes "If it is destroyed during match it is gone for good at the end, regardless of respawns or win/loss conditions" or high expense "it is astronomically expensive to repair" or any other method they must balance it for play somehow or leave it out forever. I do not think they moved the timeline up to 3049 if they did not think they could handle that issue. This applies regardless if the Clans are not playable, or playable. They still have to tackle Clan tech Balance for IS/IS fights or never give them it.

GreyGriffin, on 15 November 2011 - 08:11 PM, said:

In a competitive multiplayer game of this kind, you can't use boundaries for entry as a game balancing mechanism. As a gameplay carrot? Absolutely. But the gameplay carrot can't be "winning," not and be able to retain a robust environment where all players are able to meaningfully contribute to a match. Economy is not the answer, and for the same reason, slowing advancement for dezgra behavior is not the answer. The end result is the same, it's just more annoying to get there for both sides.

That was my point about prestige classes and league rankings in CoD and Halo. They are not worth anything. They are as some poster put it "e-peen", "I am better then you, this list says so!", yet enjoy thriving, dedicated participants where winning and moving up is the carrot. The Honor Points are the Ranking, economy, and all of that rolled into one variable. I would see dishonorable infractions not slow character progress but reverse it, drop them in total Honor Points and repeat offenders dropped from the rolls(this may be too far, but the meat is the IS). Yes it is not perfect, but it can be modified, it can be balanced.

As for barrier to entry as game balancing mechanism. Barrier for entry was never about game balance, it was for meta-game context faction balance. To prevent mass exodus to Clan factions leaving the Great Houses desolate. The actual gameplay balance is dealt with the Honor Point system in combat. Which is not perfect, but something like it can be tuned. Tuned like weapon stats or armor values, but without the downsides of nerfed Clans and straying from established concepts about Clan/IS combat power.

This brings us to Zellbrigen as a courtesy. As others have posted, the internet is not courteous. Gamers are never kind in competitive play. This is why I have stated that the incredibly strict (by TT rules) system outlined should never be turned off. You must never give them a hole to escape the loss of Honor Points.

Lets say a Clan Star is losing, if they keep playing by the rules they are doomed. If they all broke Zell and combined fire they would lose points but "win" the match. The results would be a loss of the IS side going home with broken machines and angry players. On the Clan side they get a "Win!" even if their individual ranking has gone down. How do you prevent this?

You disconnect the teams win from the personal win for the Clan side. The Clanners only "Win" is a positive return on the Honor Points. "So he only has to kill one guy then he can die honorably?" Not if you ad a lucrative "Still alive at the end" bonus to Honor Points(you could even give lights a bigger bonus and assaults a lesser). This bonus would be forfeit if they personally engaged in dishonorable play. Each player would be driven by personal greed and the urge to level, two things we can count on in massive competitive play. You could also add meta-game ramifications to this. If the Clan team engages in dishonorable play, the Clan side forfeits all salvage rights, allowing the IS to still walk away with Clan tech even if the Clans play dirty.

"What if a guy plays so much that he has 1,000,000 points and wants to mess around, it would only cost him a few thousand?" Simply make the multiplier for Honor lost go exponentially up as they rise in total points. This encourages top level players to be as perfect as possible. This can also be explained fluff wise as "You are a dang Star Colonel, you should know better then a green warrior!" This can drastically alter the standing of top warriors, a top 10 with all the same people in it every day no fun.

All in all, examples like these show it can be adjusted and balanced at the match combat level, and at the meta-game level as much as any weapon or 'mech design. It however adds little bit of "Battletech Universe" to the giant robot action game with heavy simulation elements, without trampling on top of preexisting concepts.

[Captain Hat]

You really don't get how this works, do you? You simply cannot afford to take stuff away from people for breaching a set of rules that they will see as an arbitrary imposition to start with. It will kill your playerbase, especially if doing the arbitrary crap is necessary to get ahold of the nice toys in the first place. Yes, you know and I know that it's not arbitrary, it's a reflection of the rules of the universe it came from et cetera et cetera, but most of the players this game needs to attract in order to succeed will neither know nor care.

And if you're doing a "domination map" style overarching campaign thing, which will pretty much all be high-level "endgame" content, do you think people there are going to care any more about honour or monetary losses? There's a lot more at stake once you get to that level, and most people will just completely ignore it and take the hit. It may not be how the Clans would work, but it's how people work, and you can't change that by fiddling with the numbers a little.

The honour system, to put it bluntly, is a really silly idea.

It won't balance the game because the Clan stuff will still be the best and the twinks will still all ignore the IS tech trees because of that.

It won't stop people in Clan mechs being complete dicks half the time because even if you make the honour loss proportional to total honour, there will still be people who can afford it.

It will drive players away from the game- it will simply not be any fun to be in an IS lance that comes up against a couple of Points in the game you describe and a lot of Clan players will eventually get narked off enough at the daft rules they have to follow to just leave the game, even if there isn't anything else there to irritate them.

It will stop more people from playing who might otherwise have done so than balancing the Clan tech ever will.

There is simply no argument to be had here- you're barking up completely the wrong tree.

Edited by Captain Hat, 16 November 2011 - 02:00 AM.

[GreyGriffin]

Captain Hat, on 16 November 2011 - 01:57 AM, said:

You really don't get how this works, do you? You simply cannot afford to take stuff away from people for breaching a set of rules that they will see as an arbitrary imposition to start with.

...

The honour system, to put it bluntly, is a really silly idea.

...

It will stop more people from playing who might otherwise have done so than balancing the Clan tech ever will.

Seyla.

[Amechwarrior]

Alright, I will drop it. Clearly we will not see eye to eye and I would rather not escalate our blood pressure any higher. I, like the OP saw the countless anti-clan threads, calls for not letting them be a playable superpower and posts about how Clan players must monitor other Starmates. I thought that was silly and posted an idea that tried to address that. One that tried to balance the competitive technological edge and shifted the concept of what a "Win" and "Loss" were for the player. Maybe it is a silly idea, but I looked for new concept instead of just dumbing them down. Innovation will be preceded with a mountain of failures, if this is judged as one of them by this forum them so be it, I am not married to it. At least I tried something new.

[Woodstock]

My problem with this whole 'Balance the clans' topic is that they shouldn't be balanced! They should kick our collective IS Ar*es!

The clans were better and thats what makes the clan invasion so scary! The entire Free Rash£%&$^&£$^ republic got pretty much wiped out!

The issue here is not so much balance the clans but make the clans a 'boogie monster' for the game. Sure let players play them but make sure only the most skilled players get the chance. Cos even clan tech wont help if the player can't hit a barn door. The idea hear should be to make the players AND the tech superior.

The 'trial of position' option is a great idea.

Or maybe open it to everyone but until they win a trial of position contest they cant fight against inner sphere players (only other clan people)

[Captain Hat]

Heh, woodstock, like I've said- if that wouldn't drive people away from the game I'd agree.

But it would. And no matter how good it is, if the game is unsuccessful we won't see another MW game for a while yet. So compromises have to be made.

Hence- this thread. It's not about treading roughshod over the background lore, it's about trying to find a way to balance the game while staying as consistent as possible with the stories and not driving players away from the game.

AMW- while I do (as I have made clear) disagree with your suggestion, I do respect your reasons for composing it and your decision to step your argument down. You have acted honourably throughout the debate, and I respect you for it.

As it stands, we don't know how the game will be set up or what decisions the devs will make. Maybe they're paying attention, maybe they're not. We shall see.

Edited by Captain Hat, 16 November 2011 - 03:41 AM.

[Woodstock]

you say it would drive people away but would it really?

Say we take my second option ... Anyone can play clans but they only have access to clan v clan battles. Until they win a trial of position contest. At this point they can join the clan invasion battles and really enjoy kicking IS but*.

This would remove the need for balancing, as clan v clan is already balanced. And then when they are fighting in the conquest mode of the clan invasion they would be meant to be hard.. so again no need to nerf them (which would also potentially drive people away). Also they would be some of the better pilots in the game so the feel of those battles would be maintained.

IT would also allow the DEV's to introduce the clans earlier than 3050 as they would be fighting ... err ... TRAINING against each other before being selected to join the invasion forces. Which would begin in 3050.

The devs would then not need to balance clan tech.

Which player here would really not LOVE the idea of being considered one of the BEST of the BEST? currently the clans are by some considered to be cheaters or over the top roleplayers or wannabe aces ... this system would give the clans back some SERIOUS bragging rights! No one would really be able to sy that the invasion clanners were not seriously good opponents. It would also make beating them even more impressive.

The suggestion that this would drive people away only makes sense if those people (the ones driven away) were also the ones that just wanted to have an edge over other people ...(all the roleplayers and the ones who just like clan mechs would either have a more superior gaming experience or still get to do everything they want.) The ones who want an unfair edge ... the ones who would exploit a clan advantage unfairly are people you need to force balance onto to keep the game working ... cos failing to balance or being perceived to have not balanced the game would surely drive away even more.

[Captain Hat]

The problem that we have is, it doesn't matter who you drive away, what matters is the numbers. You would drive IS players away because seriously, who would want to be an IS pilot in those circumstances other than the serious "hardcore" guys? And it would drive Clan players away because most will never get to use their superior kit against "soft" IS targets. Besides which, not all of the really skilled MechWarriors will *want* to go Clan. If Clan 'tech is superior, then what better proof of your skill than taking down a Mad Cat in an Urbanmech? That's bragging rights, right there.

For this kind of business model, numbers is everything- and it doesn't matter if you have a thousand really cool guys or a thousand feces-throwing chimps as long as you have a thousand of them. The model doesn't work once you start making a huge portion of the game's content more exclusive.

In an ideal world, I would agree with you absolutely. This is not an ideal world.

[Sam Slade]

As I said from the outset, take all preconceptions about the games derivative fiction and bin them. The tech power balance cannot be a lore related discussion.

[Woodstock]

Captain Hat, on 16 November 2011 - 05:09 AM, said:

The problem that we have is, it doesn't matter who you drive away, what matters is the numbers. You would drive IS players away because seriously, who would want to be an IS pilot in those circumstances other than the serious "hardcore" guys?

For this kind of business model, numbers is everything- and it doesn't matter if you have a thousand really cool guys or a thousand feces-throwing chimps as long as you have a thousand of them.

I think the clan front battles will be EPIC ... And as you said who would not want the chance to take down and madcat in a urbanmech! I think that the IS will be pretty heavily populated with people who love the idea of taking on the clans even under these unbalanced circumstances.

You mentioned making a huge paert of the content exclusive. But really is it? Anyone can take part on the IS v IS battles. Anyone can take part in the Is v IS conquest mode .... Anyone can join the IS side of the clan conquest mode. Anyone can take part in the clan v clan rivalry battles ... anyone can enter the trial of position contests ... the only thing that would be limited would be the Clan side of the clan conquest mode.

How limited depends on the DEV's ... the frequency of the trials would need to be pretty high to maintain the numbers on the clan side of the battles. So I can see a decent number of people having access to that rather limited section of the game.

Someone mentioned that:

Kay Wolf, on 14 November 2011 - 01:12 PM, said:

An estimated twenty-five million people have played a BattleTech or MechWarrior game or read a BattleTech or MechWarrior novel since the property’s inception in 1984.

• More than eleven million copies of MechWarrior PC games have been sold to date.
  
• The BattleTech®/MechWarrior® story line is one of the most successful science fiction lines ever created. More than seventy full-length BattleTech or MechWarrior novels have been published by Penguin Books and translated into more than fifteen languages.
  
• Over three hundred and fifty different BattleTech/MechWarrior game and toy products have been produced to date; several products, such as the Technical Readout series, the core rulebook and base box set, have been in continuous print (in on form or another) since publication.
  
• Ten million people have played the BattleTech/ MechWarrior virtual reality game.
  
• More than eleven million MechWarrior: Dark Age Collectable Miniatures Game figures are currently in play on tabletops all over the world.
  
• More than five thousand World Wide web pages have been created to date by the exceptionally loyal, vocal and well-connected BattleTech/MechWarrior community.

with such a huge interest in the CANON behind the game then surely the idea of alienating such a rabid fanbase would be more concerning than pandering to a 'x' number of people who want to only play battles they can win easily?

Remember the idea of a F2P game is that you give the max number of people possible the chance to play ...and BECAUSE it is free they often overlook some issue that cause them ... issues. I for one have said many times ... 'WoT is a good game ... but I wish they would change 'x' ...but hey who cares its free!' I have also spent money on WoT ... I only stopped spending money cos it was a nightmare to work through the payment options ... none of which work properly (I live in Poland!)

the way I see things the DEV's have a few major tasks:
1) To create a fun balanced game which makes people wanna play and play and play. Flexible ... not to steep a learning curve ... adrenaline charged etc.
2) To create an experience that truly FEELs like the canon IP that many of us know and love.
3) To introduce canon elements (clans) that do not upset the balance while still maintaining the canon feel.
4) Make it as easy as possible for people of all countries to buy things from the shop ... paypal anyone?

[AcesHigh]

IMHO:

• Clans introduced at full power(when introduced)
  
• Top 10% scored players from the past 30 days can play clan mechs, no one else. (statwhores only)

This insures:

• Clans have the best pilots, making them a real challence 1v3 or 1v5
  
• with the best gear, making them WORTH salvaging (you get the best gear untill it's exploded later)
  
• Clan pilots are unlikely to "feed IS with clantech: that would lowertheir rating and kick them out of their precious clan pilot spot!
  
• Players do their damnedest to be "the best" to earn a clan seat.
  
• Clan playerbase scale with IS playerbase

[Frantic Pryde]

You guys need to give our fellow mindless human a little bit of credit

Not matter what route you choose here you are going to alienate people. That's just the way it goes. Your never gonna get everyone to love something. The battletech ignorant out there who will play this game because "ooh look big stumpy robots!!" are probably going to get sucked into all there variations and interesting things this universe has to offer. I know thats how it happened with me! Once upon a time I was a stupid 11yo kid who got a Mechwarrior game plus joystick for Christmas and totally fell in love with the battletech universe ever since.

Point is: options and variations are always good. Clans and is are two different flavors. Chocolate and vanilla. Some people like both some people only like one or the other. If the devs make this a really immersive game like all the mw2 single player games where...especially mercs... I think people will appreciate this game all the more.

[GreyGriffin]

That is really the sum of it. The Clans should be an option. It shouldn't be an endgame.

[Eegxeta]

I laugh at everyone who think Clan weaponry is completely superior to the IS weaponry. In MW4 I specialize in short range fighting and I can say that the only Clan tech I used was the ballistic weapons. Clan weapons need range too be used at maximum efficacy so what you do more damage per shot with Clan weapons. The IS weapons shoot faster with less heat. Nothing brings out the flaws of Clan tech better than short ranged combat where you can't invest a whole lot of weight into heat sinks. All Clan tech is made for fighting at longer ranges. That is why the Clan SRM is semi guided and the IS SRM isn't at close range you don't need the guidance system. In close combat you need low heat, fast firing weapons everything Clan weapons aren't. Saying all this your wondering why I use any Clan tech at all but ballistic weapons are heavy so I use a Clan ballistic weapons so I have room to pack in extra speed and armor.

Edited by Eegxeta, 17 November 2011 - 04:36 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

Well, Eeg, what you may not be aware of is that Mechwarrior is based on a tabletop game, where the differences between Clan and IS technology were less nuanced. Those kinds of tradeoffs in heat, rate-of-fire, weight and accuracy, are what can be used to define Clan technology in a simulated environment with more nuance than the tabletop game.

[UncleKulikov]

Honestly, for pitched equal battles battle value is the way to go.

For scripted missions and scenarios, whatever goes.

[Nik Van Rhijn]

I think that the maps will be set up to make it difficult to use long range direct fire weapons - no big flat plains - either hilly/mountainous terrain or urban. Just the sort of thing to negate some of the Clan advantages, and ideal for ambush