342 replies to this topic

[Ghogiel]

Spooky, on 15 December 2013 - 03:05 AM, said:

Yes I know, I only meant that it is simply not known to the public, whether or not there was actually any pressure, or from which party that pressure came from. It's feasible that it was actually CryTek who made that business decision.

Ah, so that is not actually just a rumor anymore now? Interesting to know.

AFAIK Crytek were never involved, however it's clear that would have been another thing to add that would have been looming over them.

It's just kinda a weird conflict of interest. PGI licensing CE3. MWLL devs working at Crytek. MWLL using IP that's now licensed to PGI. Yeah kinda messy.

I'm surprised it went down as well as it did with only some minor bumps XD. PGI could have been actual {Richard Cameron}.

Karl Carver, on 15 December 2013 - 12:22 AM, said:

So again, Its not unreasonable to suspect that the reason MWLL shut down was because some of the senior Devs took him up on the offer, and that part of the deal they did was to pull the plug.

And again despite all the obvious clues, we will never know

The MWLL founders did not close down MWLL development to then go onto work for PGI. Everyone knows this because they don't work for PGI and have never done so.

Edited by Ghogiel, 15 December 2013 - 05:52 AM.

[Karl Carver]

As Spooky says PGI did hire talent from the MWLL pool, and hiring Alex was a stroke of genius imo.

Kami and Crim did make the official announcements but its not beyond the realms of possibility this was done to provide cover for the situation, It was obvious at the time from quotes from the Director et al, that there was something else that could not be spoken of.
For the sake of argument how would you feel to learn the plug was pulled and source code flushed because a few of the senior devs jumped ship for a paying job ?
To me it makes perfect sense that if thats what went down, it would be covered up with statements from the founders as happened.

We know PGI said send in those resumes
We know they hired talent in the case of FD from MWLL's team
We know there are aspects to the situation that are not being made public.

I can guess that if the truth was it was shutdown as part of a deal for a paying job in the industry, you (and the other volunteers who devoted so much time to the project) would be furious.

We will never know, which is why the blame game is so pointless

MWO was the one to carry the BT torch, and i personally kinda hope some of the talent that helped make MWLL did get paying jobs like FD did to help carry it forward.

I'm not one of the people who says it was a terrible game, nor do i say it had no playerbase.
It was a great game, and did in its heyday have a decent playerbase.

But there were more people reading certain threads here yesterday than ive ever seen in any server list in previous titles, That alone counts for a lot, as Gouty said players are content.

MWO has the players, and in games thats the measure of sucess.

The King(MWLL) is dead, long live the King(MWO)

I understand the loyalty of those who embraced MWLL, but dont let that blind you to the cold hard reality.

MWO's marketing strategy was the winner in the end.

I honestly believe MWLL would have petered out anyway even if MWO had not been born, you cant blame MWO for its demise.

I'm just glad we have a sucessful, well populated, well made game to carry the BT/MW torch and to play.

Its still early days, but i'm confident it has the momentum to go the distance in ways MWLL was never going to.

This whole MWO killed MWLL sentiment, wont bring it back to life.

Be glad you have a well populated BT game to play, i know i am

[Ghogiel]

Karl Carver, on 15 December 2013 - 01:11 PM, said:

As Spooky says PGI did hire talent from the MWLL pool, and hiring Alex was a stroke of genius imo.

I'll go out on a limb and say hired Alex because he is first a TRO artist and his work for catalyst game labs, not for his contributions to MWLL.

Alex is a special case as he is/was a professional concept artist working on CBT at the time. I don't want to undermine his contributions to MWLL... Let's just say I wish he did more for MWLL

Quote

Kami and Crim did make the official announcements but its not beyond the realms of possibility this was done to provide cover for the situation, It was obvious at the time from quotes from the Director et al, that there was something else that could not be spoken of.
For the sake of argument how would you feel to learn the plug was pulled and source code flushed because a few of the senior devs jumped ship for a paying job ?

Yes, there is more behind the scenes, but it only colors the story. The outline is clear enough imo.
What has been publicly stated>

MWLL founders and Russ met.
Russ had concerns and wanted to discuss the future of MWLL.
MWLL founders and Russ came to an agreement which resulted in MWLL ceasing development and many features being cancelled.

What you propose happened, actually never happened, I'm not saying there weren't job offers, but any job offers were not part of some deal they made with Russ or why the founders closed MWLL. I'll bold this part to be more clear.

The MWLL founders did not shut down developement to go work at PGI. They were and still are industry professionals who work at other companies (not PGI).

Quote

To me it makes perfect sense that if thats what went down, it would be covered up with statements from the founders as happened.

Covering up something that never happened?

Quote

We know PGI said send in those resumes
We know they hired talent in the case of FD from MWLL's team
We know there are aspects to the situation that are not being made public.

FD was a contributor to MWLL yes, but he was a professional BT artist first.

Quote

All I can say
I can guess that if the truth was it was shutdown as part of a deal for a paying job in the industry, you (and the other volunteers who devoted so much time to the project) would be furious.

We will never know, which is why the blame game is so pointless

Uhhh...

If that was the case I would be more than happy actually.

Let's say MWLL devs weren't already employed in the industry and didn't have jobs. And we shut down on a deal to get jobs in the industry.

How is that that worse than what actually happened:

MWLL devs, many of whom are already employed in the games industry and have jobs, and many are working on MWLL for experience and more stuff to put on their resume, and they shut down and still had their same jobs as before and still were working in the industry/ None were hired at PGI/ ended up in jobs elsewhere

MWLL was a stepping stone for many developers. If the closure of development was packaged with a deal that led to even more devs getting jobs in the industry, that would be a great success. However the closure had no such deal.

Edited by Ghogiel, 15 December 2013 - 10:16 PM.

[Karl Carver]

Your post seems to assert a lot of "facts"

Quote

None were hired at PGI/ ended up in jobs elsewhere
something that never happened?
However the closure had no such deal

You really can only speak of your own personal experience, ie you were not hired by PGI.
Not sure its possible for you to state as a fact No one was hired, unless of course you are privy to the hidden aspects alluded to by Kingleeruk and others.

But again i'm only speculating based on what we know and drawing conclusions, i would never state my opinions/conclusions as facts, that would be intellectually dishonest Quiaff

Edited by Karl Carver, 16 December 2013 - 12:33 PM.

[Roadbeer]

Ladies, you're both pretty.

[waltonpopz]

Roadbeer, on 16 December 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Ladies, you're both pretty.

Don't always agree with this guy, but man I get a chuckle at some of these quips. Cheers man.

[Karl Carver]

Roadbeer, on 16 December 2013 - 12:38 PM, said:

Ladies, you're both pretty.

I dress in womens clothing and hang around in bars....
I want to be a woman, just like my dear papa.........

(And yes on wednesdays i do go shopping and have buttered scones for tea)

[Odins Fist]

Karl Carver, on 16 December 2013 - 09:44 PM, said:

I dress in womens clothing and hang around in bars....
I want to be a woman, just like my dear papa.........

(And yes on wednesdays i do go shopping and have buttered scones for tea)

I have officially seen it all on these forums...

[Karl Carver]

Yes not an entirely accurate quote on my part



P.S ive never kissed the editor of the radio times

Edited by Karl Carver, 16 December 2013 - 10:18 PM.

[Yellow Kat]

I haven't played MWO in months, but that is because I'm still waiting for the clans to release.

[Ghogiel]

Karl Carver, on 16 December 2013 - 12:32 PM, said:

Your post seems to assert a lot of "facts"



You really can only speak of your own personal experience, ie you were not hired by PGI.
Not sure its possible for you to state as a fact No one was hired, unless of course you are privy to the hidden aspects alluded to by Kingleeruk and others.

But again i'm only speculating based on what we know and drawing conclusions, i would never state my opinions/conclusions as facts, that would be intellectually dishonest Quiaff

Really? I can't figure out if you are being an ****** or just thick.

I know for a fact that every project lead, Ingrater, Defender, Toth, Crim, Kami, et al did not make a deal to get hired by PGI, because I know where all of them work, and it ain't at PGI.

There were 4 people mainly responsible for communications with PGI of they ending of MWLL development. Leer, Kami, Crim, and Toth. 2 of them still work at Crytek, 1 works at Cloud Imperium, 1 works as a software developer in Florida. None made a deal to get a job.

[RiotHero]

When someone says this: "Consoles look just as good as PC's", I tend question the validity of every single other statement they make.

The new consoles can't even compete with a mid range PC. At least when the 360 and PS3 game out they gave PC's a run for their money. Look at how many new console games are running at 720p and 1600x900. Even if they get the max resolution it is only going to be as high as the television set it's plugged into and that is 1080p with very little AA. This current gen is such a small incremental jump compared to the last gen. If you are lucky enough to get the right game you end up with what is the base standard for PC gaming 1080p @ 60fps, albeit with less overall effects, AA, tessellation etc.

A PC can just as easily plug into that same tv as well as use a control from either console, not to mention do the hundreds of other tasks a computer is designed for that a console can't do. Of course it costs more, generally things that are better do. Saying the games look just as good is almost hilarious though.

[psihius]

I can say that for me, living in a GTM +2 zone, things got somewhat better, but the real game starts at around 21 UTC when central and eastern Europe hits the MWO. Queue almost disappears and game transforms from "a lot of stupid pugs and tons of facepalms" to "Oh yeah baby, BRING IT ON MO*******S!". I think this is due to my weird ELO bracket that has formed because of me playing on the edge between Russia and their neighbours players and EU zone. Before the EU zone hits, I'm most of my time placed with absolutely worthless players, 80% of games end up with me and guys on my lance trying to slug it out under 2x pressure - teamwork is practically non-existent outside of our lance and for the most part it's an assault mech's party (most of the days we end-up frustrating ourselves to a boiling point when we just drop into our assaults and roll over everyone - a 4 man Atlas lance with voice coms and good tactical commanders are deadly. Carrying an Arty and Air strikers each just adds to the chaos we create ).

EU zone is much much different - I see lot's of heavies and mediums with a few Assaults mixed in (it's like there are tonnage restrictions or EU players run what they like, not what is most effective). The game feels balanced and people try to play together - if someone flanks, usually a few guys help him out (most of the time with great success), you don't see people piling up into a 12 mech ball of death and other horrendous and stupid things. Sometimes guys from my unit, despite their Moscow (or worse) timezone stay beyond 2 o'clock in the morning just to enjoy this EU prime time gameplay. The weird thing: EU zone does not use as much artillery and air strikes as guys playing earlier do. And I'm not meaning "slightly less", I mean it's just as bad as in any 12 vs 12 - everyone has one and makes it a mission to drop it on you But not in EU zone

I can say this, if you think that MWO is broken and you play in EU prime time - try playing 3-5 hours earlier than usual. You will be amazed how the game can become almost unplayable for anything besides poptart Highlanders, Atlases, Stalkers and AC/20 Jaggers/Firebrands (usually 2 or 3 - an alpha strike kill party).

So, to answer the question - no, I do not think that the population of the server is declining. If anything, the EU zone is much more alive than it was and gives me a lot of satisfaction. But GTM +5 - GTM +3 zones are horrible and many in my unit are not playing as much as we used to, some play only 12 vs 12 (and those usually start only late in the evening when EU starts to flow in).

Edited by psihius, 17 December 2013 - 01:47 AM.

[Karl Carver]

Ghogiel, on 17 December 2013 - 01:14 AM, said:

Really? I can't figure out if you are being an ****** or just thick.

I know for a fact that every project lead, Ingrater, Defender, Toth, Crim, Kami, et al did not make a deal to get hired by PGI, because I know where all of them work, and it ain't at PGI.

There were 4 people mainly responsible for communications with PGI of they ending of MWLL development. Leer, Kami, Crim, and Toth. 2 of them still work at Crytek, 1 works at Cloud Imperium, 1 works as a software developer in Florida. None made a deal to get a job.

Sure but IF, a deal was done, don't you think they would tell you they are working somewhere other than PGI ?
Or perhaps rather than a job, there was simply a one off payment to grease the wheels of a shutdown.

http://en.wikipedia....ieces_of_Silver

Its not uncommon in an out of court style settlement for one of the conditions to be, not to disclose the nature or size of any compensation. Perhaps thats the mystery element.
Both sides have said there was no C&D, many in MWLL want to keep developing. But it's not going to happen, for reasons we are not privy to.........

There is a piece of the picture thats still missing, It remains a firm possibilty in my mind that the shutdown was not because they had to, but because they were made an offer that they didnt refuse......

Pure speculation though

Edited by Karl Carver, 17 December 2013 - 06:15 PM.

[Karl Carver]

Back to the topic

Been playing all day, lots of regular names and plenty of new ones.

Patch has been well received for the most part, with great excitement and enthusiasm for the new map and its features.

Server population...... Nominal

[Ghogiel]

Karl Carver, on 17 December 2013 - 05:58 PM, said:

Sure but IF, a deal was done, don't you think they would tell you they are working somewhere other than PGI ?
Or perhaps rather than a job, there was simply a one off payment to grease the wheels of a shutdown.

http://en.wikipedia....ieces_of_Silver

Its not uncommon in an out of court style settlement for one of the conditions to be, not to disclose the nature or size of any compensation. Perhaps thats the mystery element.
Both sides have said there was no C&D, many in MWLL want to keep developing. But it's not going to happen, for reasons we are not privy to.........

There is a piece of the picture thats still missing, It remains a firm possibilty in my mind that the shutdown was not because they had to, but because they were made an offer that they didnt refuse......

Pure speculation though

Incorrect.

They were made an offer they couldn't refuse.

PGI didn't pay MWLL to close down. That's an absurd statement.

All this info you aren't privy to is mainly IP rights and brand protection. The reasons should be obvious why that can't and won't be discussed.

PGI holds the rights to the MW franchise.. MWLL had a noncommercial license (even exchanging money to close development might be a violation of that> the decision to close down was very much about not to violating IP rights on other parties)

And that's all you need to know to speculate more accurately.

[Karl Carver]

Oh dont be naive,
As you your self say a "deal" was made between Russ and the founders.

That a little Baksheesh was involved makes perfect sense.
It fits perfectly, the aspect thats "secret" as posted by kingleer and others fits the bill perfectly

Why was it kept secret ?

Ask yourself how would you feel if it was true the MWLL founders accepted some out of court compensation for shutting down development.
You are a smart guy, It's the missing bit of the puzzle.......... You got sold out for 30 peices of silver.

It's exactly how things are done in this world, you know it makes sense. Think about it. It explains everything........

Quote

MWLL founders and Russ came to an agreement which resulted in MWLL ceasing development and many features being cancelled.

Quote

1. It's much more complicated than that.

3. Some communications must remain privy between the team leadership and the PGI representatives

Yeah

Its standard OP to not disclose the nature or amount of compensation when these things are settled out of court.

If you think about the "i'm going to write a number on this bit of paper" scenario it all falls into place.....

Again we will NEVER know, but it's just as good a theory as PGI killed MWLL

You got sold out for 30 peices of silver..... it's the answer that fits

You wanted to know........ this is a classic be careful what you ask for case

Think about it, they (in your own words) made a deal, aspects of which are hush hush........

You got sold out imo

Edited by Karl Carver, 18 December 2013 - 01:18 AM.

[Ghogiel]

Karl Carver, on 18 December 2013 - 12:56 AM, said:

Oh dont be naive,
As you your self say a "deal" was made between Russ and the founders.

That a little Baksheesh was involved makes perfect sense.
It fits perfectly, the aspect thats "secret" as posted by kingleer and others fits the bill perfectly

Why was it kept secret ?

Ask yourself how would you feel if it was true the MWLL founders accepted some out of court compensation for shutting down development.
You are a smart guy, It's the missing bit of the puzzle.......... You got sold out for 30 peices of silver.

It's exactly how things are done in this world, you know it makes sense. Think about it. It explains everything........






Yeah

Its standard OP to not disclose the nature or amount of compensation when these things are settled out of court.

If you think about the "i'm going to write a number on this bit of paper" scenario it all falls into place.....

Again we will NEVER know, but it's just as good a theory as PGI killed MWLL

You got sold out for 30 peices of silver..... it's the answer that fits

You wanted to know........ this is a classic be careful what you ask for case

Think about it, they (in your own words) made a deal, aspects of which are hush hush........

You got sold out imo

lol you're a {Dezgra} imo

[Lyoto Machida]

RichAC, on 07 December 2013 - 03:21 PM, said:

never even heard of that game lol I heard of MWO on gamespot.com.

Interesting...well, it's the game that is quite possibly going to steal a good portion of the userbase from MWO when it launches.

And Chris Roberts' track record in gaming > PGI's.

2014 is make or break for MWO.

[B E E L Z E B U B]

judging by the amount of people coming into the forums i would guess player base is at tops 2000