625 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Unrecognizable? 'Mechs are recognizable by their appearance. If you mean, "having the same capabilities as tabletop," that's just silly. You've either completely failed to understand how balancing can be done, or you're just refusing to consider alternatives that don't support your point of view. In the interest of charity, I'll assume the former - particularly given your... inadequate... handling of my argument. Let's see...

First, you've simply ignored important data in your theorycrafting. Not all Omnis come with maxxed armor, for example, so they're not likely to be "ahead" on survivability. - most, in fact, will be more fragile, Daishis notwithstanding. But the largest problem is that you're ignoring the very things PGI explained to you already about how they plan to go about balancing Clan tech. The only variable you're even considering is damage. You're ignoring all the other variables; heat, heat scale, range, beam duration, tonnage, etc. You're going to have to improve your argument quite a bit before you can even ask me to take you seriously after that.

Then of course we have the really bad comebacks to my earlier posts. You announce rather defensively that you're "fully aware of the difference" between sidegrades and upgrades, yet earlier you conflated price and quality - which you ought not to do if you understood the issue. You also misrepresent my position on this issue, as well: you claim that I don't "like" tabletop format because I don't accept that it's compatible with this game format. That you find it likely others argue from emotion instead of reason may tell us something about how you arrive at your own opinions - it certainly says nothing about mine. This brings me to your closing demand that I defend a position I've never taken - I'm not talking about how many c-bills Clan tech should cost, or why; I'm pointing out the simple fact that price doesn't determine the quality of persistent gear. If you're going to refute someone, you have to actually refute an argument they've made. I will offer you a correction, however: basic math will tell you that Clan 'mechs are likely to be roughly 50% more expensive, not double.

Finally, if you cannot even accept reality enough to realize that PGI is selling (not attempting; they've got sales) precisely the kind of balanced Omnimechs I'm trying to explain to you. The fact that these Omnimechs are the established Clan models does not change how PGI will be implementing them into the game - a fact that they have already explained to you.

[Autobot9000]

In my opinion there are two ways of dealing with clan mechs:

Opportunity one:
Nerf clan mechs to balance them against inner shphere mechs. This makes sense, if the game wants to be a classic shooter (12 vs 12 etc bla, standard shooter game)

Opportunity two:
Dont' change anything, keep the game true to its spirit. In this case, because this is a computer game, balance has to be achieved through game modes, i.e. dropping fewer clan mechs, handing out unique motivations for each faction (otherwise playing the faction that gets beat up wouldn't be fun). This isn't a classic shooter game anymore, it has stronger flavor of character playing (here: faction)/MMO.

I strongly favor the second opportunity. I never liked pure shooter games, they are dull and boring to me.

[CyclonerM]

Shmo0o, on 20 December 2013 - 03:48 PM, said:

Don't nerf Clan, just force them to use Omni. All their hardpoints can carry any weapon, but aside from weapons and a few things like BAP, they cant change anything(just engines cause gyros and stuff are not changeable in this). Oh and BTW, if you want a well-made mechwarrior game, play Mechwarrior 4. You can download it for free at some places like clancoyote.com. MekTek has dropped all support for MW4 though, so don't look there. MWO is essentially still in development right now because of all the "imbalances".
EDIT: Also, naturally, Clan weapons will produce more heat and cost much more than IS tech.

I still play MW4 sometimes because it gives me a much better immersion in the universe but the Clan tech implementation was totally wrong. BattleMechs were almost the same of OmniMechs and viceversa. You could use every Clan weapon you wanted without any trouble and it was always a better choice than IS weapons.

That is the easiest way but also the worst one IMHO.

To respect the lore (or at least the spirit if not the number) you just need TRUE OmniMechs which are balanced by themselves, 2 Stars to reflect Clan organization and bidding (a very important part of Clan military doctrine) and some necessay tweaks to the mechanics of the Clan weapons (except maybe for CLRMs the way PGI chose is better than i dared hope) plus a revised Ghost Heat and maybe DHS. Stop, you are fine. You could feel you are really the Clan warrior you ever dreamed while not having that huge advantage many feared.

Edited by CyclonerM, 21 December 2013 - 05:20 AM.

[990Dreams]

Void Angel, on 20 December 2013 - 03:33 PM, said:

Clan tech will have a higher c-bill price; that's why the Clan Package is more expensive - but you can't make it a "tier" system without both destroying the monetization of IS tech (and the game needs money to continue) and increasing the value of MC to the point where it really feels like pay to win. In order to avoid destabilizing the game, both as a game and as a business, Clan tech needs to be organically balanced with IS tech.

Why pay 50k more for 3 extra damage? If they are adding a high price then I want a high tier weapon.

[CyclonerM]

DavidHurricane, on 21 December 2013 - 08:06 AM, said:

Why pay 50k more

Why pay 24 millions for a Timberwolf?

[990Dreams]

CyclonerM, on 21 December 2013 - 08:13 AM, said:

Why pay 24 millions for a Timberwolf?

Far better chassis than the IS alternatives. The clan weapons are no longer 'far' better so I am sticking with the IS. Lose 1 dmg and save

[CyclonerM]

DavidHurricane, on 21 December 2013 - 08:18 AM, said:

Far better chassis than the IS alternatives. The clan weapons are no longer 'far' better so I am sticking with the IS. Lose 1 dmg and save

It reflects the obvious difficulties an IS unit would have to acquire and maintain Clan tech..

[Tannhauser Gate]

I think the devs have it right. Clan tech should be "better but require more skill to use". Leaving Clan tech OP as per the lore is a complete fail. It would instantly obsolesce all IS tech and all the content players spent millions real money on. It would destroy the game finacially, destroy the community, and end MWO. The only way to do this is make Clan tech better but not OP and make it require more skill and more resources to use such as more DHS or requiring longer damage over time etc.

[Rocket2Uranus]

Don't Nerf Clan Tech Mech.

Make Clan Tech Mech available though CBills.

Or this game will turn out to be another "pay to win" games.
All/most "pay to win" games do well while players BUY the items. But player numbers will drop and game will die.

Don't make this into a "pay to win" game please.

[CyclonerM]

Rocket2Uranus, on 21 December 2013 - 09:07 AM, said:

Make Clan Tech Mech available though CBills.

Have you even read their posts? These Clan 'Mechs will be relesead for everyone after June 17 with a still unknown schedule.

[Gladewolf]

Void Angel, on 21 December 2013 - 12:50 AM, said:

Finally, if you cannot even accept reality enough to realize that PGI is selling (not attempting; they've got sales) precisely the kind of balanced Omnimechs I'm trying to explain to you. The fact that these Omnimechs are the established Clan models does not change how PGI will be implementing them into the game - a fact that they have already explained to you.

I read the explanation...did you? Each instance of "Balance" still results in the newbiehammer mechs you claim not to want(especially in the area of missile tech)....of course these decisions aren't final...lol, but if you do the math....at all, you'll find that there simply is no way to take the established mechs without turning the sales pictures....into something else.

[Void Angel]

AGAIN, a "newbie hammer" is an overpowered piece of equipment that requires little skill to use effectively - like un-nerfed Clan tech. You've been given, in the link you quoted, very good reasons why tabletop-copied Clantech newbie hammers won't be implemented in MWO. I've also explained to you that changing how the weapons work in the game doesn't change what the 'Mechs are - a Mad Cat is still a Mad Cat. This last is an extraordinary claim that you have yet to support, in any case.

At this point I have to seriously ask: do you have a learning disability? You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but if you have something that causes you difficulty in understanding the written word, let me know so I can cut you some slack - otherwise, you're just being obstinate and ignoring my arguments. Restating your error does not make you less wrong - but it does show you to be less sane.

[Void Angel]

Autobot9000, on 21 December 2013 - 12:59 AM, said:

Opportunity two:
Dont' change anything, keep the game true to its spirit. In this case, because this is a computer game, balance has to be achieved through game modes, i.e. dropping fewer clan mechs, handing out unique motivations for each faction (otherwise playing the faction that gets beat up wouldn't be fun). This isn't a classic shooter game anymore, it has stronger flavor of character playing (here: faction)/MMO. [emphasis added]

Even with how heavily you slanted your second option, you still couldn't avoid admitting that the non-Clan factions are going to get beat up. That's the major issue with tabletop Clan tech for MWO. Because you only have one 'mech per player at a time, the metagame balancing options you're suggesting will have to be applied to such an extreme that broad-based appeal will greatly suffer. Which do you enjoy more, after all: A match where you slipped up and got murdered two minutes in, but your team won? Or a match where you lost, but had a good fight on both sides? With as-is Clan tech, every IS match v. the Clans will be the former case - but you won't always even win.

At the end of the day, we have to accept the difference between MWO and a BattleTech LARP accessory. This game is not and cannot be a vehicle for re-enacting the Clan Invasion; it cannot be a Battletech MMORPG. That MMORPG could be fun; heck, I'd try it! But it's not this game.

It can't be.

Edited by Void Angel, 21 December 2013 - 09:18 PM.

[Mr D One]

I said this from the very start in closed beta.

Clan tech will completely unbalance the game.

If physical combat was allowed then the IS mechs with hatchets etc would have an advantage as clans do not like physical combat and prefer to dispatch their enemies from range.

However this game does not permit it. Clan tech is lighter, less occupying space, more durable and more damaging at further ranges.

The only way to be fair is make all the advancements in clan tech available to IS mechs.

For example I know my Boar's Head is dead with a 400 XL IS engine if either the LT/RT/CT is destroyed. If however I had my engine upgraded to an Clan 400 XL then I know that my mech can at least survive a LT or RT destruction.

Mechwarrior Online should be regarded as it's own universe based loosely on bits and pieces of Battletech.

In that regard the timeline should just be sped up because waiting 15 years in real life until IS catches up to clan level tech (3065 I believe) would just be a joke.

Instead of being a sheep and following an unrealistic and being honest PGI, un-achievable goal with the 1 for 1 timeline, let's write our own version of MWO. Let's change the rules to keep the fun and balance intact first. Capcom had one main design goal balance with Street Fighter 4, All characters are capable of defeating each other if used the right way at the right time. No one character should be Over Powered.

MWO Mechs should have the same game play design philosophy.

[CyclonerM]

Void Angel, on 21 December 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

I've also explained to you that changing how the weapons work in the game doesn't change what the 'Mechs are - a Mad Cat is still a Mad Cat.

I hope i have not a learning disability because i want to object this.
You say a 'Mech is recognized by its appereance and this is true. BUT for someone who has played with a 'Mech before MWO - in MW2-4 or in BT - has an idea of the feeling a Timberwolf whould give him, especially who played past MW game. If you make even a slight change to the mechanics of the weapons or heatsinks they may feel this difference.

Do not get me wrong, i would change how a weapon work (look at PGI's idea for SSRMs) rather than its numbers (which sometimes should get changed) but i also want to feel a Mad Cat is the Timberwolf i always loved.

[Gladewolf]

Void Angel, on 21 December 2013 - 08:45 PM, said:

AGAIN, a "newbie hammer" is an overpowered piece of equipment that requires little skill to use effectively - like un-nerfed Clan tech. You've been given, in the link you quoted, very good reasons why tabletop-copied Clantech newbie hammers won't be implemented in MWO. I've also explained to you that changing how the weapons work in the game doesn't change what the 'Mechs are - a Mad Cat is still a Mad Cat. This last is an extraordinary claim that you have yet to support, in any case.

At this point I have to seriously ask: do you have a learning disability? You don't have to answer if you don't want to, but if you have something that causes you difficulty in understanding the written word, let me know so I can cut you some slack - otherwise, you're just being obstinate and ignoring my arguments. Restating your error does not make you less wrong - but it does show you to be less sane.

You know that if you take the shell of a Ferrari and put a Pinto engine in it...it's not a Ferrari anymore right?....You can't understand why I keep mentioning cost...you do realize PGI has taken money for Ferraris, but is about to pass out Pintos don't you(If they actually do what the said they'd do)? You've read the so-called balance suggestions in which the clans get for instance 7 ton LRM-20s.....now...let do some math 7 is 3 tons less than 10 see? That wasn't hard at all! A clan er medium laser does one point of damage less than a IS large laser...so if we apply the changes in the same fashion as has been done to the er large....i'll wind up with a weapon slightly less powerful than large laser.....that ONLY WEIGHS ONE TON(The Black Hawk only carries 12 of those, I'm sure it won't be an issue). Total lack of any sort of ability to actually consider what others are saying, failure to actually RESEARCH the proposed change ideas........ I can understand talking to the rest of the world must be frustrating for you, after all your parents told you that you were special...so obviously everyone else must have it wrong.

[Void Angel]

PGI simply isn't "taking the shell of a Ferrari and putting a Pinto engine in it." As I have already pointed out to you, PGI isn't claiming to sell us over-powered, tabletop Clan mechs and then somehow switching them when we're not looking. They're being very up-front with what we're getting from Clan 'mechs - you cannot deny this, since your entire complaint stems from this fact.

So this part of your argument is unarguably incorrect - to insist on it is to repeat a lie.

Second, as I have, again, already explained to you, price has nothing to do with whether or not Clan tech should be implemented. Real-money price points can be adjusted - given the sales rate of the Phoenix package, I was largely unsurprised to see that the prices for the Clans are higher.

So this part of your argument is also incorrect.

C-bill price points, on the other hand, simply regulate the rate at which players progress through the game and how quickly equipment can be acquired. If Clan tech comes with greater difficulty of use as part of its balancing, it makes sense to make it more expensive, if only to encourage inexperienced players to choose less skill-dependent gear. So this part of your argument, like the previous point, relies on conflating balance questions with monetary/c-bill price. As I have shown you, these price points are not directly related to game balance. Not only are your facts incorrect, you are attempting to use them in a fallacious way.

So this part of your argument is also incorrect. I'm sensing a theme.

Now we come to your wildly inappropriate treatment of "why balancing can't work." This is a frankly silly argument. You begin by citing the LRM example, apparently believing that pointing out weight differences and deliberately ignoring increased heat requires no justification. Heat-limiting a lighter weapon system is a viable way to achieve balance - it doesn't matter how many weapons you have if you can't fire them all effectively. Ask the 6 PPC Stalker pilots. As you were told in underlined text, the exact numbers given are for demonstration purposes only - the actual numbers will be determined by testing and tweaked after release just like everything else. Therefore, since you can make the weapons hotter to compensate for their advantages, they can be balanced via this mechanic.

So this part of your argument is incorrect.

Next you offer up an even worse argument: you try to use the mechanics presented for the ER Large Laser as an argument that ER Medium lasers cannot be balanced - simply because the mechanics proposed for the ER wouldn't (you think) balance the medium. Completely escaping your notice is the fact that PGI has been giving you specific examples of the general kind of changes which will go into actual balance. Like all the existing weapons, balance is done on a per/weapon basis. It's unsupportable to claim that you have to do the same things to every weapon of a given type in order to balance them. Do some research on laser beam durations, for example. (You also fail to mention one the balance 'mechanics (beam duration,) and existing game mechanics such as Heat Scale, but why quibble? Your argument has failed before we even discuss your omissions.)

This part of your argument is incorrect as well.

So not only is your entire argument wrong, it is wrong in ways which show:

• "Total lack of any sort of ability to actually consider what others are saying,"
  
• "failure to actually RESEARCH the proposed change ideas........"
  
• Total immunity to irony and your own hypocrisy.

Your complete unwillingness to even deal with opposing reasoning (as I did above) speaks volumes about both your comprehension of your subject, and your ability to come to conclusions which might be correct. This is why I asked you if you had a learning disability. I'm serious about that; some forms of Autism Spectrum Disorder, for example, lead to people having problems conceptualizing ideas via the written word. If you have such a disability, please ask a friend or loved one to play Devil's Advocate to explain things to you verbally before you post long, block-text diatribes on subjects you do not understand - or heap personal abuse on people for disagreeing with you.

At this time, I'm placing you on my ignore list. You have nothing more to say to me; indeed, you have said nothing substantially new since you began responding to my critique of your faulty reasoning..

[Gladewolf]

PGI's currently posted change possibilities DO NOT amount to balancing Clan mechs to Inner Spere mechs IF the changes go in exactly as posted...(I did disclaimer their "subject to change" warning, btw EVERYTHING is subject to change) they also suggest that they wish to retain the "flavor" of the clan mechs...so how much nebulous nonsense will you swallow before you admit that PGI is not exactly tipping their hand AT ALL on what the final product will look like? Here's the problem with that..... We already know what they should look like...so to say there is no possibility of "misunderstanding" PGI's claims is disingenuous. And you aren't surprised at the pricing?....That's funny....Forbes was... but what do they know about money? As for your "ignore list" ....what can I say? Thanks?

[Selfish]

Gladewolf, on 20 December 2013 - 10:24 PM, said:

...It is not possible to balance clan tech without making the mechs in question unrecognizable.

...Why anyone should pay double for a "sidegrade".

Good posits and questions! We ran into these at the start of this game and the MWO Devs took two routes. The first was try and balance all mechs to reduce power creep inherent in the IS. They tried to implement an obscure role warfare scheme to make the four weight classes on par with each other in different ways. They just never came up with actual roles for the classes. This is, imo, mostly the problem of oversight forcing simplification and the resulting increase in mech efficiencies. It made even assaults completely bearable in movement/aiming, which makes their payloads more effective, which reduces the viability of more maneuverable mechs.

The second was to embrace tonnage+technology as a way to ascertain the costs of mechs. This was a business mistake. What we've ended up with is a completely imbalanced pricing system based on tonnage for both CBills and MC that keeps balance from ever reaching lower tonnages.

------------

This is immediately transferrable to Clan mechs. They SHOULD be balanced, or completely broken to fit MWO. MWO needs to overhaul its pricing structure and realize they can charge more for lights, and less for assaults, provided they can deliver on their core concept promise of role warfare. This means cheaper Clan Mechs which are more easily integrated into the game.

They SHOULD break off TT valuation as a means for pricing. This runs deeper than charging 800,000 CBills for a niche LB10X, it causes content development to shift towards heavier mechs that arbitrarily make more money in extreme magnitudes over lighter mechs-- they all cost relatively the same USD to produce. They are constricting themselves with an obscene price point scheme. This not only screws over IS mechs, but the upcoming Clan mechs. It's ridiculous, and players should express their opinions on the matter.

[StormDll]

Why do you think that the damage depends on the direct damage to the rifle? In BT Set relative damage per unit time! For example IS er laser deals 7 damage over 1 second, well ... Then it is enough to make the clan er laser with 7 damage over 0.4-0.5 seconds. Imbalanced? No ... But gives a good advantage of not requiring an increase in weight or heating. And the concept of clans fighting compound includes the stars - 5 mechs. When the balance of 10 vs 12, decrease the exposure time of the laser does not give a big advantage that will keep the classic range - 750 meters. Similarly, other lasers. Pulsed lasers will come as a result of a simple bunch at 0.1-0.25 seconds for small and large laser, respectively. LRM can be balanced as SSRM - shoot bursts of fire 5 rockets chain. And no need to change either the weight or volume or heat. We should not forget that the IS will be a significant advantage in the number of mechs!