625 replies to this topic

[mania3c]

Don't get me wrong.. I would love if clan tech would be stronger as is supposed to be..and clan players would have less mechs but from gameplay perspective and game design perspective...most suggestions here are not doable .like..at all..

We are already in balance hell...and we wont be out of it anytime soon. Adding tech which is clearly better and uneven teams for clan..oh gosh.. do you think you current forum is whine heaven? What would happen after is unimaginable...

I have no idea what will they do with clan tech.. but at this point.. I agree that clan mechs and weapons should be just different..maybe gimmicky ..but not better..

[Karl Streiger]

There is a funny part (or it may be funny if it isn't so sad) about balancing technology and the technology that still has to come.

Take for example my favorite part
The Clan LRM 15 -> this weapon weight 0.5t more as a IS SRM 6 - it think its a given fact that PGI can't change weight or crits at the current stat.
So how should this Clan LRM behave?

• Like standard LRM - 180min range ....1000m max?
  
• Like Clan LRM 0min range 1000max?
  
• Like Clan LRM 2 -> 0min no lock on no indirect fire max range 640m?
  
• Like Clan LRm 3 -> 180min and 640max?

And now comes the interesting part

• the Clan LRM still weight only half...so you can mount 2x the missiles of a IS counterpart...can AMS deal with 4-6 salvos of LRM 20s?
  
• same as part 1 AND -> SRM will distinct - maybe even SSRM
  
• what about MRM - shouldn't MRM work like this? Would be the same nice as the LBX
  
• clearly underpowerd but maybe a good trade of for the decreased weight and crits (but a lot of people will cry)

Next: the Clan ER-M-Laser

• 1t 5 heat 7dmg 450/900 ~ the firepower of a Large IS Laser for 1t and hardly the heat
  
• 1t 6heat 6dmg 360/720m -> where do you want to place the IS-ER Medium Laser
  
• 1t 6heat 4.5 dmg 450/900 -> you need two to deal the damage of a IS-Large and you have 71%more heat (cry baby cry)

LB 2 X - 2500max range.....for pellets? really if at least one pellet should hit the target at 2500m it means both shots will be a single shot at ranges below 1500m


LB 5 X -> same as above

The best chance for those small caliber LBX is to fire multiple pellets with much reduced damage (but would you use a weapon that may be able to strike at such ranges only to deal 0.2 dmg to a single hit zone?
AC 2 Ultra? How could a weapon fire even faster as the AC 2
MachineGun....0.25t weapon weight....(time for 0.5t ammunition?)
What about A-Pods (ok both points mean we will never see a Hellbringer)

And last not least i hardly have any clue how they will make a difference between OmniMechs and BattleMechs.
Lets predict they make OmniMech Variants like BattleMechVariants:
The TimberWolf wouldn't be dangerous for the Balancing - the DireWolf B would be dangerous:
5 ballistic Hardpoints plus 3 energy hardpoints and full modification? Clan Tech don't have to be better at all:

Lets predict 5x UAC 10 -> 10t, 4crit 2.5sec RoF - double tap enough place and weight for 13t of ammunition (even with ES and FF and XL) what Mech could last only 2.5sec - even when the Unultra the UAC10 we are talking about 5 shots of 50 alpha damage. (not using the 3 energy hard points)

So what about Medium Mechs or Light Mechs? Don't even want to think about the Nova running > 120kph with 12 Small Laser

[seija]

Dont nerf Clan Tech, just make Clan a faction and make them fight by the rules of Zellbrigen. If you actually had to play like a clanner this wont be a problem.

[Thorn Hallis]

Karl Streiger, on 10 December 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

So how should this Clan LRM behave?

How about it behaves like one big missle that does pinpoint damage wherever it may hit (if it hits)?

seija, on 10 December 2013 - 02:31 AM, said:

Dont nerf Clan Tech, just make Clan a faction and make them fight by the rules of Zellbrigen. If you actually had to play like a clanner this wont be a problem.

That wont change anything.

[Karl Streiger]

Thorn Hallis, on 10 December 2013 - 02:38 AM, said:

How about it behaves like one big missle that does pinpoint damage wherever it may hit (if it hits)?

A big ugly thunderbolt?
It could also be fire 1,2,3,4 LRMs with Streak Mechanics and RnG damage (wouldn't be the first and the last) - give AMS the ability to shoot them all down.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Karl Streiger, on 10 December 2013 - 02:22 AM, said:

There is a funny part (or it may be funny if it isn't so sad) about balancing technology and the technology that still has to come.

Take for example my favorite part
The Clan LRM 15 -> this weapon weight 0.5t more as a IS SRM 6 - it think its a given fact that PGI can't change weight or crits at the current stat.
So how should this Clan LRM behave?

• Like standard LRM - 180min range ....1000m max?
  
• Like Clan LRM 0min range 1000max?
  
• Like Clan LRM 2 -> 0min no lock on no indirect fire max range 640m?
  
• Like Clan LRm 3 -> 180min and 640max?

And now comes the interesting part

• the Clan LRM still weight only half...so you can mount 2x the missiles of a IS counterpart...can AMS deal with 4-6 salvos of LRM 20s?
  
• same as part 1 AND -> SRM will distinct - maybe even SSRM
  
• what about MRM - shouldn't MRM work like this? Would be the same nice as the LBX
  
• clearly underpowerd but maybe a good trade of for the decreased weight and crits (but a lot of people will cry)

Next: the Clan ER-M-Laser

• 1t 5 heat 7dmg 450/900 ~ the firepower of a Large IS Laser for 1t and hardly the heat
  
• 1t 6heat 6dmg 360/720m -> where do you want to place the IS-ER Medium Laser
  
• 1t 6heat 4.5 dmg 450/900 -> you need two to deal the damage of a IS-Large and you have 71%more heat (cry baby cry)

LB 2 X - 2500max range.....for pellets? really if at least one pellet should hit the target at 2500m it means both shots will be a single shot at ranges below 1500m




LB 5 X -> same as above

The best chance for those small caliber LBX is to fire multiple pellets with much reduced damage (but would you use a weapon that may be able to strike at such ranges only to deal 0.2 dmg to a single hit zone?
AC 2 Ultra? How could a weapon fire even faster as the AC 2
MachineGun....0.25t weapon weight....(time for 0.5t ammunition?)
What about A-Pods (ok both points mean we will never see a Hellbringer)

And last not least i hardly have any clue how they will make a difference between OmniMechs and BattleMechs.
Lets predict they make OmniMech Variants like BattleMechVariants:
The TimberWolf wouldn't be dangerous for the Balancing - the DireWolf B would be dangerous:
5 ballistic Hardpoints plus 3 energy hardpoints and full modification? Clan Tech don't have to be better at all:

Lets predict 5x UAC 10 -> 10t, 4crit 2.5sec RoF - double tap enough place and weight for 13t of ammunition (even with ES and FF and XL) what Mech could last only 2.5sec - even when the Unultra the UAC10 we are talking about 5 shots of 50 alpha damage. (not using the 3 energy hard points)

So what about Medium Mechs or Light Mechs? Don't even want to think about the Nova running > 120kph with 12 Small Laser

so the end is nigh, lurms cannot be evaded, although you can take cover and or focus fire them before they can close in for their supreme no min range kill, even though you should be able to out number them. medium laser damage is only effective at nominal range so this max range is like any other weapon, {Scrap} damage output, i'd never recommend firing a LL over 550M unless it's a free shot. nova swarm and such when they're wider than a cataphract {under my scaling} just makes them a tearable barn before it could lay down the damage. plus that particular mech has no torso twist at all! the direwolf and other assault boats are the only tech problem to balance, hense poptart snipers are the ones to worry about, not something twice as wide as an atlas and just as slow.

and all this is now subject to ghost heat, clanners would suffer more of it for sure under PGI. the splat cat days are over. in fact it wouldn't surprise me that ghost heat's intentions was really for clan boaters.


btw first draft of the Zellbriggen idea...

it can be simulated via psychological dicipline hitting where most people whine.

at the moment the game is capable of; the savior kills xp bonus awarded for the damage only you made to a kill, if you didn't get the kill but cause most the damage you get lots xp. we have missle detection from enemies and designations to targets such as C or K. this game has the code to distinguish individual targets damage applications and most importantly judge the rewards accordingly.

Note: amongst the battles CW is supposed to offer there will still be house and territorial issues sorted out between ISvsIS by house.

The following applies to IS vs Clan battles or clan vs clan

what we need is an cbill/money related "honour system" here is some theory crafting for what it’s worth.

Condition 1: any damage/kill made on another targeted mech incurs 25% deductions to the earnings.

Condition 2: any damage/kill made on another targeted mech incurs 75% deductions to the earnings.

Condition 3: failier to kill the mech targeted means all earnings regardless are deducted by 50% only if you die in battle do you get no condition 3 deduction.

the scenario IS:

IS mech targets clanner.
clanner is informed of being targeted
small window pop up {no worse than trying to use the battlegrid}.
Accept Freebirth offer.
Y/N
Choose N means the target is available for anyone else and you do not know who targeted you. You have fortfieted the zellbrigen and your damage inflictions are rewarded under condition 1 Carry on as normal
The IS mech keeps the target lock and the fight carries on as per usual.
If… Y is triggered
Honour system is engaged and the IS mech receives a Y/N window
If N is triggered the clanner keeps the target lock and the IS continues normal battle, the clan mech however can go after the target

the scenario CLAN:
clan mech targets IS mech or clan mech in clan vs clan
small window pop up {no worse than trying to use the battlegrid}.
Engage zellbrigen?
Y/N
N means the target is available for anyone else and you do not know who targeted you. Carry on in a neutral position although you may end up engaged in interference.
If Y then you must kill that mech or incur condition 3.


…. Interference ….
If someone else claims a target then the hud warns of dishonour in battle, both combantants can choose to disengage {untargeting the mech} the original claim will not be punished for continuing the engagement but the second will incur condition 2 if he/she carries on the attack, the more attacking the less potential earnings the second clanner makes.

So for example a clanner earns;

1 mech kill; mech was fired upon without being targeted – usual earnings however negative 25% for lack of honour

1 mech kill; targeted mech already claimed before hand but you got the kill – usual earnings negative 75% for complete dishonourable tactics

1 mech kill; targeted and taken out alone – usual earnings comparable to IS.

These percentages of course applies to damage output – assists, savior kill points ect in accordance to the conditions.

it would show in the score card

premium time would earn you xxxxxx amount

dishonourable combat has deducted you xxxxxx amount

this system encourages obeying the rules for rewards comparable to IS earnings or lose battlefield functionality {this system encourages targeting and controlling targeting too} and rewards for playing “dishonourably” and there you are. PGI’s limited little rewards system and existing trigger functions utilised for Zellbrigen whilst also pushing discipline play or go back to rabble IS all done WITHOUT ruining clan mech functionality. wanna make money without these rules staggering your playstyle? play IS. that is how to retain an IS playerbase, your earnings can/should be transferable to your clan account but of course clan economy is much more expensive so you’ll be playing a lot of IS then to buy and build clan mechs. Simply cause people consider playing a game to be “grind” there would be little clan side hording like everyone dreads and sales for clans should be stable considering you get the looks and the tech, but you have to earn it in game by tactics. Zellbrigen.

here’s some additional things to consider…

Weapons however shouldn’t be mixtech. The only consession could be that you have to pay for hardpoint changes to omni {have no idea if pgi could program that… proberbly not} but you could only change IS hardpoints to omni by sacrificing 2 of the same weapon class hardpoint for 1 omni.

Eg: a victor VTR-9B could have 1 B hardpoint and 3 omni points for a steep price, so essentially it would become an close to being the best mech in the game with clantech... but it would still use IS engines, heatsinks, endo etc which would weigh it down, there will be NO clan equipment applicable to IS chassis.

The most clan tech an IS mech could carry is 4 clan weapons in case of mechs like the JM6-S and I doubt you could stack clan material in this fashion when weighdown by IS equipment.

However These mechs belong to what would be the CW all house loyalty faction bonus account the wolfs Dragoons account.
To balance this wolfs dragoons ability of best profile and agility mechs with limited amount of clan gear Dragoon mechs would have their own special drop limit system:

This system is a quick example of figures and of course can be tweaked.

IS;
12 mechs
Weightlimit 850 tons
Class designations 3 light 3 medium 3 heavy 3 assaults

Dragoons;
10 mechs
Weightlimit 700 tons
Class designations 3lights 3 mediums 2 heavies 2 assaults

Clans;
8 mechs
Weightlimit 625 tons
Class designations 2lights 2mediums 2 heavies 2 assaults

That would be the price of having a few clan weapons on IS chassis. Comparable Drop limits.
Clanners could also have “enhanced imaging” by way of the target systems showing all the installed equipment on the mech. Where the ammo is how many heatsinks are installed and or destroyed etc. of course freebirths you’d know when you’re launching against trueborns and when you play with the dezgra so that little ammo in the small armoured legs trick will still be applicable, just remember to change it in the mech lab before dropping in with clanners.

PGI can do this, they’ll just choose not to and would rather shoot themselves in the foot by not bothering to programme these functions but rather strip back clans to a mediocrity so that they’re no different to IS mechs. Quick cheap and nasty is the way, quality and immersion doesn’t happen around here.

As for the equipment we’ve seen it for ourselves.

4ppc stalker vs 4 ppc awesome which would you choose?
2ac5 2ppc highlander vs 2ac5 2ppc battlemaster which would you choose?
Ac20 hunchback vs ac20 shadowhawk which would you choose?

The equipment is just a part of the puzzle, and it’s proven to not be as good on an average chassis compared to superior chassis. Ecm is a rare exception where if a chassis can have it it must carry it. That is a general mechanic issue not IS vs Clan issue. so apply better equipment to clans but also make the clan chassis overly large and without pilot tweaks ie: stock standard and they’ll be balanced if not inferior to IS. You don’t have to ruin the mech building and game mechanics/weapon values to balance clans. Tweaking component values should be only a last resort. Without pilot tweaks mechs will be limited to the biggest engine they can carry which limits the tonnage the mech can carry. You want the equivalent of speed tweaking on a chassis you’ll have to sacrifice the tonnage when building a clan mech which further turns them into paper armour feather duster offensive mechs.

Clans can be balanced without destroying the equipment, it’s the only attraction they have aside from vain looks, when pgi nerf them they’ll have completely ruined their last chance cashcow. There’ll be an initial spike of sales for desperate clanners and then the game will fall over exhausting all PGI can offer.

So If you want to worry about clan balance then worry about jump jets and information warfare heat across weapons etc, the same **** the forums moan about IS battlemechs, cause clans will just highlight the old problems, they certainly won’t be made to cause new ones. The devs are determined to nerf them {wrongly} to ensure nobody will want to buy them except for vain and eccentric role players.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 10 December 2013 - 02:49 AM.

[Thorn Hallis]

Karl Streiger, on 10 December 2013 - 02:41 AM, said:

A big ugly thunderbolt?

Sure, why not? If PGI intends to make the Clans feel different this would be one way to start.

[CyclonerM]

GalaxyBluestar, on 10 December 2013 - 02:48 AM, said:

btw first draft of the Zellbriggen idea...

....

I would change a few thing to make it smoother. I would eliminate all the popping windows. Instead, Clanners at the start of the match use Zell by default and by default the "target" key triggers instead "tag" mode.

scenario:
Clan 'Mech 1 uses "R" as tag (different colour on HUD) to choose his target. When he chooses it, holds R for a few seconds to start the "duel". Once the duel is started, you can tag more opponents for the duel but no one else may tag yours.

Clan 'Mech 2 can tag Clan 1's enemy (it would be explicitely targeted by another one) but doing so the whole team has a high penalty on honor and all duel modes are suspended. A Clan Star Captain (team commander) can declare a melee if the opponents fight too dishonorably, but doing so he reduces the team honor earnings as well. So he has to balance the potential gains of a honorable victory and the risk of losing a humiliating defeat with even less honor won (maybe even loss of honor).

In either case duels are suspended and the battles turns to a standard battle where Clan players can use every mean necessary to defeat their enemy, including artillery. Tag mode is now the regular target mode.

Spheorids, instead, do not have to do anything. They can just gang up on Clan 'Mechs as they want but if they win while the Clans still use Zell they gain more exp and c-bills.

[Blacksoul1987]

I'm not sure why you guys are all trying to balance with drop numbers and tonnage if clan tech comes out as powerful as lore it will just be clan vs clan so you don't need 8v12 or anything like that. There won't be enough IS players left to really justify doing drops like that.

[CyclonerM]

Blacksoul1987, on 10 December 2013 - 05:17 AM, said:

I'm not sure why you guys are all trying to balance with drop numbers and tonnage if clan tech comes out as powerful as lore it will just be clan vs clan so you don't need 8v12 or anything like that. There won't be enough IS players left to really justify doing drops like that.

But it should be included anyway as part of the Clan organization since the Second Exodus when they abandoned SLDF ranks and military organization and to reflect bidding against inferior opponents

Edited by CyclonerM, 10 December 2013 - 05:27 AM.

[Iqfish]

Simple Answer:

In a Hunchback IIC, With two ultra autocannons 20 (imagine only one AC40 Jager) I could smoke every mech on the field.

Pop out, shoot 40 pinpoint damage, wait 1 second, fire again.

Please dont tell me it would improve anything if you put 10 of these against 12 IS Assaults.


@PGI: PLEASE! PLEASE don't nerf Clans with "Ghost Heat"...

I want to keep the great balance we have, there are some really clever concepts here in these forums, please read them and then decide on your next steps

Edited by IqfishLP, 10 December 2013 - 05:45 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

IqfishLP, on 10 December 2013 - 05:34 AM, said:

Simple Answer:

In a Hunchback IIC, With two ultra autocannons 20 (imagine only one AC40 Jager) I could smoke every mech on the field.

Pop out, shoot 40 pinpoint damage, wait 1 second, fire again.

Please dont tell me it would improve anything if you put 10 of these against 12 IS Assaults.


@PGI: PLEASE! PLEASE don't nerf Clans with "Ghost Heat"...

Well the Hunchback IIC was supposed to be to kill at least a single Mech - and bring a good dead for the warrior inside.
It would be somehow a fail on an epic level when a Hunchback IIC become a top tier Mech.

Edited by Karl Streiger, 10 December 2013 - 05:46 AM.

[Iqfish]

Karl Streiger, on 10 December 2013 - 05:44 AM, said:

Well the Hunchback IIC was supposed to be to kill at least a single Mech - and bring a good dead for the warrior inside.
It would be somehow a fail on an epic level when a Hunchback IIC become a top tier Mech.

you know how great a Hunchie is in MWO, imagine this mech with 2 UAC20s.

We are not talking about tabletop or how it was intended, but you know how good that mech would be.

Edited by IqfishLP, 10 December 2013 - 05:55 AM.

[Blacksoul1987]

CyclonerM, on 10 December 2013 - 05:26 AM, said:

But it should be included anyway as part of the Clan organization since the Second Exodus when they abandoned SLDF ranks and military organization and to reflect bidding against inferior opponents

You should have the capability to do that with private lobbies. I'm just saying you don't need to do 12 IS mechs vs 8 clan mechs or anything like that cause if Clan tech is that much better there won't be enough IS pilots to justify wasting the resources on doing such a mode. If clan tech comes out that strong just change it to 10 vs 10 and both sides will have 2 stars, don't ask the devs to waste their time making an IS vs Clan mode if only a few people are gonna play IS.

[Revein]

Clanmechs cannot be better than IS mechs... Alot of us have spend alot of money on the IS mechs , and if these mechs are getting absolete after clantech come it will ruin the game. Dosent matter if we get 12vs 6 modes, they are still worse and it will ruin the game in the long run. Balance is important, and it will be hard to do that with clantech op.

They should give us money back if clanmechs are OP, cuz i dont see the point of running my misery if we need to be 2-3 ppl take down a madcat. Finding games can be hard as more and more ppl is gonna switch to clans....

A long living and balanced game is more important than the clanwhores getting e-peen (not that i hate clans, i will run them, but i also wanna run my old mechs with same satisfaction).

[Iqfish]

Blacksoul1987, on 10 December 2013 - 05:56 AM, said:

don't ask the devs to waste their time making an IS vs Clan mode if only a few people are gonna play IS.

So you are basically saying "screw every development we made, Clan Tech is the new thing"?

Why should we ever play IS then? The whole game would be senseless. Why throw rocks at each other if we can have grenades? Thats way more fun.

[Blacksoul1987]

Revein, on 10 December 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

Clanmechs cannot be better than IS mechs... Alot of us have spend alot of money on the IS mechs , and if these mechs are getting absolete after clantech come it will ruin the game. Dosent matter if we get 12vs 6 modes, they are still worse and it will ruin the game in the long run. Balance is important, and it will be hard to do that with clantech op.

They should give us money back if clanmechs are OP, cuz i dont see the point of running my misery if we need to be 2-3 ppl take down a madcat. Finding games can be hard as more and more ppl is gonna switch to clans....

A long living and balanced game is more important than the clanwhores getting e-peen (not that i hate clans, i will run them, but i also wanna run my old mechs with same satisfaction).

I also would like a refund on my phoenix pack if clan mechs are OP I only bought the pack after they stated their intent on balancing clan tech. I otherwise would not have wasted my money on Inferior IS trash.

[Jakob Knight]

Actually, they have not nerfed the Clans in MWO at all. Since the Devs hold no conviction that they have to glance at the original material at all or hold to it in any way before making it what -they- want them to be in -their- game, and the Clans have not been introduced yet, they are not nerfing them.....the Clans will be exactly as they should be in MWO. Maybe not as they should be in the original material, but that has little or no bearing on MWO, so why should they care, quiaff?

Also, I think they do not want to put in the time to make a custom modification to the engine to allow preset uneven teams, especially since there is no way to even ensure the proper number of players on on each side as it is right now. Thus, the only way the Clans could appear at all is if they were equal but not superior to other units already in the game.

Finally, the Devs have already said they consider much of the way the Clans were introduced into the original material to have been mistakes. It is probably unrealistic to expect them to not put their own ideas as to how Battletech 'should have been' into MWO. They have done thus so far to date (ECM, weapon firing rates, Ghost Heat, minimum range effects, ect).

The best advice I can give is to simply accept that all Clan units will provide is the unique 'feel' of being Clan without the advantages some players are expecting and relying on. If piloting a Clan model mech is not as important to you as piloting a super powerful unit that provides the upper hand in battle instead of your own skill, then I submit you will only find disappointment in being a Clansman/Clanswoman in MWO.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 10 December 2013 - 06:05 AM.

[Flying Judgement]

i dont mind if they isnt that powerful. But should be still a bit stronger and faster and If should runn 14 mech vs 10 Clan mech
on top this is a battle ower the maps if the Clans take over 80 % of the innersperse its still fine this is the time when all the mercenary and the hardcore groups start to take back everything.
superior tech is one thing but haveing an extra lance in ur disposal is a huge boost
may be the clans would be way to weak to take on the challenge.

but man i signed up to FRR so i can experience the Clan tech superiority on my skin first hand and try my mad suicide skills against them
they can be faster or stronger but i still going to carry my little nameless friends on my back if i can.



Do you think Dark Souls or Mech Warrior Online is popular because its easy ???
No but because both game is Sadistically hard!!!
so i wouldnt take away the the clans superiority and the inner Spears Advantage in Numbers.
but probably the Clans would be in a huge disadvantage.

[Karl Streiger]

Revein, on 10 December 2013 - 05:59 AM, said:

A long living and balanced game is more important than the clanwhores getting e-peen (not that i hate clans, i will run them, but i also wanna run my old mechs with same satisfaction).

See - I hate Clan to the core. Reason I will not use Clan Tech - even when it means I'm the last one playing a IS Mech.

They can make a Clan ER-PPC be as worse as the current IS ER-PPC and still clan tech will be more advantage.
Look at the current "high" ELO Players - they don't give a damn about immersion or lore - when they get there hands on a Executioner / Summoner- they will simple poptart with UAC 20 and 2 ER-PPCs -> more range and better heat dissipation (not to forget about the Clan -XL)

Edited by Karl Streiger, 10 December 2013 - 06:07 AM.