474 replies to this topic

[Charons Little Helper]

Buckminster, on 17 January 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

The large laser has been a god send - it's the focus damage that's saved my tuckus and pulled in some kills. Just this morning I had an Atlas that I was pestering. One of my missile volleys must have hit ammo, because it hurt him bad, leaving him with just his AC/20. He came rushing at me through the buildings (on the peninsula on Crimson Strait), got into my face and landed a couple good hits on me. But that laser right into his center torso meant I was the one walking away.

Why didn't you just run away? Even without tweak - there's no way he was faster than you.

[Tesunie]

Buckminster, on 17 January 2014 - 08:16 AM, said:

So maybe I'm misreading the intent of Victor's commandments. But he's very adamant about the fact that you just shouldn't mount LRMs if you can't follow the rules, and I don't quite agree with that.

That's our problem with him. It isn't with his advice, as he has very good advice (I've said this many times), but that attitude kills any advice with his "must have" commandments or you are "bad". Almost like when he starts to spout "I don't tell people they can't play their build" but he will tell us "but it's bad and can't work"...

As for the Atlas incident, that is exactly why I like to have some lasers or something that can do some pin point work on my LRM mechs. It's that nice combo of LRMs (weakening/armor peeling) and lasers/ACs (pin point, take advantage of weak spots) that can just work so well together, if one knows how to use them together. It's the blend of weapons that can make a build work well, but when you look at each weapon system alone (what Victor does), they suck by themselves. But together, it's a little ball of death most times.

Charons Little Helper, on 17 January 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Why didn't you just run away? Even without tweak - there's no way he was faster than you.

Maybe he couldn't? Maybe he got jumped? AC20 in the back of a running Griffin might have dropped him? Maybe going backwards, he still didn't go fast enough? Maybe he was pinned in by terrain and had to fight? I've had many situations that, either flight wasn't possible at that time, or if I did (or I did) I would die (or I did die).

The Battlefield is a tricky place sometimes. Anything can happen.

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 08:21 AM, said:

Guess what, I made a mech that is as powerful as a Medium LRM boat, and as powerful as a Jenner (what is considered a powerful light) on ONE CHASSIS! And I basically have the armor and health of each of them combined! So, I created a slightly slower mech, that can out preform most lights/mediums at range or up close. That means, I don't need to worry so much about what range you are at with me, as I'll still be able to fight you "as effective as a medium mech" most times, yet take damage like an assault (and, go figure, move like an assault).

No, you created a 'mech that's inferior to a Jenner and a Medium LRM boat, and handicapped it into a chassis.

Let's forget missile boats for a second. Let's take another assault in a similar weight range. Say, a Victor with 2 UAC/5 2 PPC. At what range are you superior to the 5 ton lighter Victor?

In an infight, even with the PPC minimums, the Ultra alone out DPS your entire brawling weapon array. And also because you can't control range/angle/LOS or have TAG, you are virtually defenseless against the Victor if it decides instead to pop & snipe you to pieces, either. The only way you stand a chance of even hurting the Victor in this scenario is to pray it runs right through the open with no ECM nearby, and even then, I suspect the 2 UAC/5s and 2 PPCs would be able to drop your Stalker before your LRMs - onfocused, again, without TAG - would be able to do more than moderately wound the Victor on the charge.

I know you've had success with the design, but it's success based on other people's lack of piloting skill and experience, not on the merits of the machine. It's extremely easy to the rush and it's infighting weapons aren't powerful enough to tangle with something of it's own class.

[ED: That kind of Victor setup is how you actually do a 'mech that can "engage at all ranges."]

Edited by Victor Morson, 17 January 2014 - 08:41 AM.

[Buckminster]

Charons Little Helper, on 17 January 2014 - 08:26 AM, said:

Why didn't you just run away? Even without tweak - there's no way he was faster than you.

He was fairly close to begin with - ~400 meters - so trying to run away would have probably let him get a couple more good shots into me. And frankly, I saw his paper doll (stripped CT, all weapons gone except the AC/20) and knew that I could get the kill as long as I could place the damage where I needed it.

I've also found the LL to be very good to add a little direct fire damage - I've had plenty of targets that I could put an eye on, but knew that by the time my LRMs got to him, he'd be behind cover. A little zap from the laser helps get the job done.

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

That's our problem with him. It isn't with his advice, as he has very good advice (I've said this many times), but that attitude kills any advice with his "must have" commandments or you are "bad". Almost like when he starts to spout "I don't tell people they can't play their build" but he will tell us "but it's bad and can't work"...

That's not an unfair assessment, because it's true.

Before the way AMS & ECM were put in, we'd be having an entirely different discussion here. Before AMS, a single LRM/10? Cool beans, did some damage, no downside. Hell, for a while we had some pretty cool 'mechs running single LRM/20s and stuff, and it was a lot of fun.

The problem is post-AMS (with it's ludicrous "AMS blob" ability to cover each other), post-ECM, post flight path changes, post damage nerfs, if you aren't using LRMs in a very specific way you are adding a paperweight to your 'mech that, with the ammo consumption, is heavier than an AC/20.

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 17 January 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

No, you created a 'mech that's inferior to a Jenner and a Medium LRM boat, and handicapped it into a chassis.

Let's forget missile boats for a second. Let's take another assault in a similar weight range. Say, a Victor with 2 UAC/5 2 PPC. At what range are you superior to the 5 ton lighter Victor?

In an infight, even with the PPC minimums, the Ultra alone out DPS your entire brawling weapon array. And also because you can't control range/angle/LOS or have TAG, you are virtually defenseless against the Victor if it decides instead to pop & snipe you to pieces, either. The only way you stand a chance of even hurting the Victor in this scenario is to pray it runs right through the open with no ECM nearby, and even then, I suspect the 2 UAC/5s and 2 PPCs would be able to drop your Stalker before your LRMs - onfocused, again, without TAG - would be able to do more than moderately wound the Victor on the charge.

I know you've had success with the design, but it's success based on other people's lack of piloting skill and experience, not on the merits of the machine. It's extremely easy to the rush and it's infighting weapons aren't powerful enough to tangle with something of it's own class.

[ED: That kind of Victor setup is how you actually do a 'mech that can "engage at all ranges."]

2 Med lasers, 2SSRM2s. Same weapons as a Jenner. Not inferior. Unless you are still under the misconception that "A Stalker can't keep lasers (or a lock) on a fast mech because they can't twist far/fast enough to hit them"? Unto which, I have to say, have you played a Stalker 3F? Not the other Stalkers, as many of them have a lot slower and less torso twisting abilities compared to the 3F...

Okay, that Victor, I'm better inside it's 90m minimum range. I'm also better at it in the 270-180m range band. Either one of those, I start to seriously out preform it. It's also probably running an XL in there for those weapons, so I can probably easily pop a side torso if I can get the chance. I run a Standard, and I will sacrifice a side torso (and half my weapons) to survive longer, so I will probably be able to spread the damage out a little better than him. Basically, I have more "stuff" he has to eat through before he kills me on average, where as I only have to take a single torso piece to probably drop him in return. And if he's running standard engine in there, he's probably as slow as dirt, making my LRMs just that much more effective.

I also preform the same damage at long range (he does 30 damage, I do 33 damage with LRMs alone), but I'm able to also shoot indirectly if I have a teammate spotting him. This means that, but the time he even sees me, if he sees me, I might be in much better shape than he is.

This isn't to say I can "always" win against that Victor, but I have a good chance no mater what range we engage at. The advantage of my build, as I also don't care what range he wishes to engage me at, as I can at least still preform at that range. Thus, I don't need to control ranges as much as you do. But be careful, if I can/do get you into my sweet spot, it's going to hurt you...

As far as LRMs being "unfocused" I have Artemis, which does focus it in by a bit. Most missiles will probably hit the torso, which could be what I want as he's got weaker sides. I also am plenty fast enough to use terrain effectively to control line of sight most times. I'm starting to think you don't know what you are talking about with slower mechs, as I'm thinking you've never played them. They take a different skill set to play over a faster mech, as you have to know where to be a bit more than a faster mech. Position becomes more key the slower you are. Get caught out of position, and any Assault will probably be in trouble.

To your edit: I like my LRMs. I play better with my LRMs than I do other weapon systems. I like being in a more support role and being able to help teammates more readily. That is why I like LRMs, as I don't have to crowd the "LoS" pathways on my teammates, some (many) of whom are probably better at the accurate shooting skills than I am (I tend to be a little too impatient for direct fire weapons, and let off shots too soon).

[Kaijin]

Victor Morson, on 17 January 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

Let's forget missile boats for a second. Let's take another assault in a similar weight range. Say, a Victor with 2 UAC/5 2 PPC.

Ah! The meta! So the meta Assault beats the LRM assault. This is not surprising. The meta heavy beats the LRM heavy. The meta medium beats the LRM medium. The meta light (Spider) beats the LRM light. I'm not sure why you wrote the commandments at all now, Victor, since the meta is better than LRMs.

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

2 Med lasers, 2SSRM2s. Same weapons as a Jenner. Not inferior. Unless you are still under the misconception that "A Stalker can't keep lasers (or a lock) on a fast mech because they can't twist far/fast enough to hit them"? Unto which, I have to say, have you played a Stalker 3F? Not the other Stalkers, as many of them have a lot slower and less torso twisting abilities compared to the 3F...

The same weapons on a 'mech that is too slow to dogfight, yes.

Also, this means you've reduced your 85 ton 'mech to being a poor man's 35 ton 'mech. You don't have a huge problem with that?

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

Okay, that Victor, I'm better inside it's 90m minimum range. I'm also better at it in the 270-180m range band. Either one of those, I start to seriously out preform it.

The thing is, you won't. The 2 UAC/5s offer far, far more on-target damage (since the Streaks aren't on-target) and higher DPS than your entire close range load out. Add in the Victor's likely jets to keep getting that minimum...

The 270-180m range area is the ONLY overlap you have, and there is zero way to maintain that in an assault. That's not even easy to maintain in a light. Any missiles you fire in that range are likely to be inside minimum before they even clear the tubes.

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

It's also probably running an XL in there for those weapons, so I can probably easily pop a side torso if I can get the chance.

Not really, no. Most of the good AC/5 + PPC builds are standard engines, outside of the Shadow Hawk.

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

I also preform the same damage at long range (he does 30 damage, I do 33 damage with LRMs alone), but I'm able to also shoot indirectly if I have a teammate spotting him. This means that, but the time he even sees me, if he sees me, I might be in much better shape than he is.

30 damage alpha; the UAC, however, is likely to get 3 good shots off per pass at least, so those numbers are way off.

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

This isn't to say I can "always" win against that Victor, but I have a good chance no mater what range we engage at. The advantage of my build, as I also don't care what range he wishes to engage me at, as I can at least still preform at that range.

The disadvantage of your build is while you can "perform" at any any range, you will also be outperformed at at any range.

[Charons Little Helper]

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

2 Med lasers, 2SSRM2s. Same weapons as a Jenner. Not inferior.

What jenners have you seen? Try 4 mediums & 2 SSRM2s.

[Kaijin]

Charons Little Helper, on 17 January 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

What jenners have you seen? Try 4 mediums & 2 SSRM2s.

Previously, the build was stated as 4 ML, 2 SSRM2s, & 2 LRM15s. Same as a JR7D + 2 LRM15s.

[1453 R]

Victor. Tesunie. Enough.

Victor, you know bloody well where Tesunie is coming from. You’ve run into this sort of thing face-first before, more than once, and I’m honestly surprised you never seem to see it when it comes up. She’s a player in the game’s general populace, down here in Puglandia next to all the rest of us, and individuality, personal style and flair are more important to most of us than bleeding-edge competitiveness. Go read the Timmy/Jonny/Spike thing again, man. She’s never going to admit that your Shadow Hawk or my Trebuchet are a fit match for her Stalker, either in a missile duel or as a missile delivery system in a team setting, because she’s never fought anyone who’s shown her that it’s possible.

Her Stalker works just fine against the sorts of pilots we all fight down here in the sticks, man. Four medium lasers and two SSRM launchers on a Stalker are enough to give most light units pause down here (by the way, Tes, that’s 28 damage, not thirty. 2.5 damage SRMs have, sadly, not been a thing for a while now), and you and I both know that two LRM-15s is enough to get the job done, even if her tubes are awkward for it. Given that typical pilots down here in Puglandia are scared spitless of LRMs and the light pilots are almost universally junk, there’s no real reason she isn’t right, insofar as her own section of the game goes.

Tesunie. Victor is a high-level pilot involved in as close as this game can currently get to the top levels of organized cutthroat competition. His arguments are not simply about effectiveness, though he’s phrasing it that way because I doubt he’s honestly thought about separating effectiveness from the concept he’s really arguing for, which is efficiency.

For a pilot in Victor’s section of the game, effectiveness and efficiency are the same thing. An effective ‘Mech that isn’t efficient is not, in fact, an effective ‘Mech. Victor’s JR7-F pilots can hold all six of their Jenner’s medium lasers on the same single component of the target for the entire duration of the beam (target’s defensive twisting and such excepted, for the moment), at the Jenner’s full speed and while jumping. When he’s saying his compatriot light pilots would tear your Stalker to bits in minutes (and not many of them), he is neither joking nor indulging in hyperbole. Players like you and me don’t see the sort of pilots Victor faces off against, Tes. Those sorts of pilots will capitalize on any/all inefficiencies in their enemy’s team composition and rip that team to shreds. He can’t afford inefficiency, and whatever else you can say about your Stalker, you cannot argue that it is an efficient design.

Your Stalker is probably just as effective as my Trebuchet inasmuch as contributing to a team’s victory via LRM pummelings go. My Trebuchet, however, is much more efficient. I can deliver the same LRM poundings you do for not much more than half your Stalker’s tonnage, while your Stalker does not, can not, and can never match the sort of preposterous direct-fire damage another assault ‘Mech could put out. In Victor’s lofty world up there, LRMs are a waste of space on any ‘Mech, and a criminal one in an assault ‘Mech slot.

Look at it this way: trading a Boomjack for my Trebuchet is a lot less of a loss in a medium slot than trading a Highlander for your Stalker is in an assault slot. That may not be how our matchmaker works anymore, but it’s still how the competitive units do it, and the competitive units are pretty much all Victor does. You and I can pull down similar damage/kill numbers in our respective LRM ‘Mechs, making them equally effective in a team sense…but I’m doing it in a Trebuchet, and you’re doing it in a Stalker. You’re expected to pull those sorts of numbers in an assault ‘Mech; pulling those sorts of numbers is a much bigger deal in my much smaller machine, eh?

That’s why Victor is so adamant about Lurmishing mediums being the way to go, and why I’m backing him up on it. You pilot that Stalker of yours just as much as you like, and I’m honestly happy you enjoy it as much as you do – but would it really kill you to admit that maybe Victor’s got a point here, and that we aren’t wasting our time in Lurmisher mediums?

[Buckminster]

It's the unspoken caveats to all advice given on these forums

• "in my circumstances" - be it competitive 12-mans, solo PUGs, or somewhere in between
  
• "for why I play" - to be the best, to have fun, to troll
  
• "for how I play" - we all have different styles

All are valid reasons to play, and I hate it when people come in here and tell others that they're having fun wrong. Maybe you get a thrill out of being tops in the competitive 12-man circuit, but I like to come in with a Raven 3L full of flamers and an LRM20 in the NARC tube, because it makes me giggle. Either is a perfectly valid reason to play the game, but the same build will not work for both players.

Edited by Buckminster, 17 January 2014 - 11:07 AM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

1453 R, on 17 January 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Victor. Tesunie. Enough.

Thank you for including Victor in that BTW.

The big problem I think Tes is having is that (like you said) Vic isn't willing to admit that those other areas of the game play differently.

I may have given up trying to beat that idea into Vic's head - but Tes is a fair amount more stubborn than I.
Add to that the fact that, at my Elo anyways, people who do not have those high level builds work as an auto I-WIN! button the way that Vic tends to treat them - tend to be the same individuals who come into the forums and whine about how crappy PGI and the game are.
^That is why I fought Vic about his attitude at first - and that is why I still do not point people toward this thread.

[Tesunie]

Victor Morson, on 17 January 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

The same weapons on a 'mech that is too slow to dogfight, yes.

Also, this means you've reduced your 85 ton 'mech to being a poor man's 35 ton 'mech. You don't have a huge problem with that?



The thing is, you won't. The 2 UAC/5s offer far, far more on-target damage (since the Streaks aren't on-target) and higher DPS than your entire close range load out. Add in the Victor's likely jets to keep getting that minimum...

The 270-180m range area is the ONLY overlap you have, and there is zero way to maintain that in an assault. That's not even easy to maintain in a light. Any missiles you fire in that range are likely to be inside minimum before they even clear the tubes.



Not really, no. Most of the good AC/5 + PPC builds are standard engines, outside of the Shadow Hawk.



30 damage alpha; the UAC, however, is likely to get 3 good shots off per pass at least, so those numbers are way off.



The disadvantage of your build is while you can "perform" at any any range, you will also be outperformed at at any range.

Victor, I'm going to continue to stand by the evidence, you don't know what you are talking about with the Stalker... It seems like you never touched one, and are making false "presumptions". I have made my 85 ton mech do the same damage as a 35 ton mech AND a 50-65 ton mech. Basically, I am covering the same abilities (though not roles) of 90 tons worth of mechs, in a single mech. That's what Assaults can do, and I have the armor to get away with it. So, no, I don't have a problem with being able to protect myself and other nearby teammates from fast light mechs with my SSRMs and 4 med lasers, while at the same time being able to preform like a 50-65 ton mech in the LRM support role.

Jump jets increase speed? Nope. Sorry. JJ might throw off my aim, maybe. And his UAC5s can jam. And he probably is running an XL, with adds more weaknesses for me to take advantage of. I'm not saying I will win, but I have a chance of winning.

Once more, you probably haven't even played a Stalker. I wont even begin to say it's easy to keep people in my "kill zone", however, I tend to choose targets that are distracted with my teammates, and by the time they realize there is a problem, I've already hurt them.

You didn't say AC5, you said dual UAC5. Dual UAC5 (18 tons, 9 tons a piece) plus ammo (4-5 tons), plus 2 PPCs (14 tons, 7 tons each), plus heat sinks for it all... If it's going to have the speed most people expect and want, it's going to have to go XL... Unless it's really slow.

I know, but you can't say when the UAC will jam. Mine still commonly jam after one shot (somehow my luck). And I'm also still not saying that I'm going to always win that fight, but I do stand a change of winning or doing a lot of damage on my way out.

Out preformed depends upon what I'm fighting. As always, situation dependent. How do I engage my enemies? What happens? How does my team work with me? Etc. If I'm fighting a med mech, I probably have a good chance, depending upon their loadout. Another Assault? I'm fairly hard pressed, depending upon their loadout. I also tend to work well within a team much better than I do by myself. I create my builds to do that, and more or less also to play guard to others. Most of the time, my role is to protect other long range mechs, from lights among other things, while still being able to contribute damage to the fight while I am doing so. AKA: If there is an LRM boat, I hang out with them. Then, when people smell "LRM boat" and charge, I can protect myself and my ally. This is one among several roles I fill.

Here, how about this. You have a Stalker 3F you bought, for whatever reason. You want to make it work as it's your first mech you bought (just a proposed example) and you love it. You have a Standard 300 engine for it, DHS, Endo, Artemis, and enough c-bills to alter a few things (but probably not enough for a different engine). Build me a mech. How would you approach this if you where to make a Stalker 3F build? 5 Large Lasers (meta)? Two-four Large, 4 SSRM2s? Two LRM10s, two LRM5s, and a TAG only? What would you do with it.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...18879eec12791fa

1453 R, on 17 January 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

Victor. Tesunie. Enough.

Victor, you know bloody well where Tesunie is coming from. You’ve run into this sort of thing face-first before, more than once, and I’m honestly surprised you never seem to see it when it comes up. She’s a player in the game’s general populace, down here in Puglandia next to all the rest of us, and individuality, personal style and flair are more important to most of us than bleeding-edge competitiveness. Go read the Timmy/Jonny/Spike thing again, man. She’s never going to admit that your Shadow Hawk or my Trebuchet are a fit match for her Stalker, either in a missile duel or as a missile delivery system in a team setting, because she’s never fought anyone who’s shown her that it’s possible.

Her Stalker works just fine against the sorts of pilots we all fight down here in the sticks, man. Four medium lasers and two SSRM launchers on a Stalker are enough to give most light units pause down here (by the way, Tes, that’s 28 damage, not thirty. 2.5 damage SRMs have, sadly, not been a thing for a while now), and you and I both know that two LRM-15s is enough to get the job done, even if her tubes are awkward for it. Given that typical pilots down here in Puglandia are scared spitless of LRMs and the light pilots are almost universally junk, there’s no real reason she isn’t right, insofar as her own section of the game goes.

Tesunie. Victor is a high-level pilot involved in as close as this game can currently get to the top levels of organized cutthroat competition. His arguments are not simply about effectiveness, though he’s phrasing it that way because I doubt he’s honestly thought about separating effectiveness from the concept he’s really arguing for, which is efficiency.

For a pilot in Victor’s section of the game, effectiveness and efficiency are the same thing. An effective ‘Mech that isn’t efficient is not, in fact, an effective ‘Mech. Victor’s JR7-F pilots can hold all six of their Jenner’s medium lasers on the same single component of the target for the entire duration of the beam (target’s defensive twisting and such excepted, for the moment), at the Jenner’s full speed and while jumping. When he’s saying his compatriot light pilots would tear your Stalker to bits in minutes (and not many of them), he is neither joking nor indulging in hyperbole. Players like you and me don’t see the sort of pilots Victor faces off against, Tes. Those sorts of pilots will capitalize on any/all inefficiencies in their enemy’s team composition and rip that team to shreds. He can’t afford inefficiency, and whatever else you can say about your Stalker, you cannot argue that it is an efficient design.

Your Stalker is probably just as effective as my Trebuchet inasmuch as contributing to a team’s victory via LRM pummelings go. My Trebuchet, however, is much more efficient. I can deliver the same LRM poundings you do for not much more than half your Stalker’s tonnage, while your Stalker does not, can not, and can never match the sort of preposterous direct-fire damage another assault ‘Mech could put out. In Victor’s lofty world up there, LRMs are a waste of space on any ‘Mech, and a criminal one in an assault ‘Mech slot.

Look at it this way: trading a Boomjack for my Trebuchet is a lot less of a loss in a medium slot than trading a Highlander for your Stalker is in an assault slot. That may not be how our matchmaker works anymore, but it’s still how the competitive units do it, and the competitive units are pretty much all Victor does. You and I can pull down similar damage/kill numbers in our respective LRM ‘Mechs, making them equally effective in a team sense…but I’m doing it in a Trebuchet, and you’re doing it in a Stalker. You’re expected to pull those sorts of numbers in an assault ‘Mech; pulling those sorts of numbers is a much bigger deal in my much smaller machine, eh?

Umm... I'm a guy...

(On the part you directed to Victor.)
But besides that, I do actually understand and see what Victor talks about. I'm not saying he is wrong, or his advice isn't good. However, it being the "only" way to do things is what I have a problem with.

I do admit, I play more for fun than to be "cutting edge effective", but at the same time I don't want to be a waste to the team either. I want to contribute to the team in a meaningful way, while still having fun with my mech. If the Meta is "6 PPCs" and I don't like playing PPCs (I will admit I had a 4 PPC Stalker before the PPC meta, as it was a pseudo Awesome, something different from my other Stalkers), then I'm not going to play something I don't like just because "the Meta tells me to".

I'd also like to note, I'm not saying that his build, or your build, could stomp my Stalker. They very well might/can. However, to say one will "always win" is not true. I very well could win, even if the "deck is stacked against me". However, we also are using two different builds with two different intended roles.

(It is? I was going by the mechlab with it causing 5 damage per SSRM2 system... My bad. They've changed it so much I'm not sure what the numbers are, but the point is it can still threaten a light mech... But I think you know what I mean. However, the in game weapon description also says 2.5 damage (per missile). Didn't they recently bump it back up a few patches ago?)

(What is directed at me:)
That is what I've been kinda trying to make the point of. I can be effective without being "super-efficient". I suspect you know what I mean here. There is a difference between those two concepts.

One of my problems is, he didn't "gear" this guide towards "that section of play" but instead at the "newbie players". These are great advice, but I just can't get behind all of it being "necessary" for LRMs to work. If he didn't tell me "you're a bad player" because I don't follow every facet of his guide, I wouldn't have a problem. (I also suggest for new players to bring a few backup weapons, as they aren't as skilled with the game, and thus don't always know where to be and where not to be, and when to be or not be there. Suggest means, I recommend, not that they "have to do it or they are bad", which is the difference.)

As far as Victors mates in light mechs, they might rip me apart, they might not. However, even if they do rip me apart, I'll at least leave my mark on them before I go, which is better than the LRM boat Victor keeps suggesting I be could do. I have a chance of winning, which is better than no chance at all of doing any damage. (I do take you understand what I mean here.)

There is a reason I brought it down to average damage per match per ton. Most people I've talked to on the forums say that a damage per ton of 4.0 is considered good, 5.0 is considered great. I get 5.01 damage per ton per match right now with my new build. Most people would consider this as a good thing, but usually with the understanding that damage isn't necessarily everything at the same time. However, Damage is one of the few stats that can indicate some form of effectiveness that we have access to. I also don't claim to be the best pilot in the game, or to play in the competitive arena, but I have played a few 12v12s. Took a while to adjust to the differences, as 12v12 do play differently than PUGs.

1453 R, on 17 January 2014 - 10:33 AM, said:

That’s why Victor is so adamant about Lurmishing mediums being the way to go, and why I’m backing him up on it. You pilot that Stalker of yours just as much as you like, and I’m honestly happy you enjoy it as much as you do – but would it really kill you to admit that maybe Victor’s got a point here, and that we aren’t wasting our time in Lurmisher mediums?

I'm not saying that LRM Mediums don't work at all. Not by any means. I use LRM mediums myself all the time and have fun with them. As I've said several times, I have no problems with Victor's advice, but I have a problem with the "must or you bad" concept he constantly pushes on everyone. His guide has a lot of good points, and is very good advice overall. But to say one must follow or they suck... is just wrong. That's more so my point. (I think your statement here needs to be passed to Victor, as he does have a point, but it isn't the only way to play...)

Charons Little Helper, on 17 January 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

What jenners have you seen? Try 4 mediums & 2 SSRM2s.

Sorry. Was suppose to say 4 medium lasers and 2 SSRM2s... typo and my bad. My build doesn't have 2 med lasers, but 4...

[Charons Little Helper]

Kaijin, on 17 January 2014 - 09:41 AM, said:

Previously, the build was stated as 4 ML, 2 SSRM2s, & 2 LRM15s. Same as a JR7D + 2 LRM15s.

Oops - my bad. That is the standard Jenner D build. (Though I prefer 4 small pulse with the streaks myself.)

[Tesunie]

Charons Little Helper, on 17 January 2014 - 01:36 PM, said:

Oops - my bad. That is the standard Jenner D build. (Though I prefer 4 small pulse with the streaks myself.)

As I said, my bad. I did a typo. I was caught!

[Kaijin]

I think people approach games differently. In another time and another place, I had this little cafe I'd go to to play chess. I was something of a fixture there, and I wasn't alone in that. Some of us would play anyone. Win or lose, we played because we enjoyed playing. Some others weren't interested in playing unless they were reasonably assured of winning. One guy - I beat him once and he never would play me again. Now I'm not saying that the meta players in MWO are like this guy, but I am saying they're not like me.

I enjoy Battletech and Mechwarrior and all of the aspects of those games. A variety of mechs, each fitted with a variety of weaponry, or at least with the option to do so without crippling yourself, ideally provides for interesting engagements. MWO is far from this ideal at present, what with the ballistic rut we find ourselves in. BT or MW without mechs carrying a mixture of weapon types isn't BT or MW for me. Sure, you could make all manner of 'boats' in BT, and there were even some canon 'boats' too. The Awesome, for example. Most mechs in the TROs though carried a variety of weapon types. That's the game I enjoy playing. I lose. I win. I'm around a 1.00 win/loss ratio now, pugging. It used to be higher, when I was dropping with my unit, but with the vaporware state of CW, there's no point in that anymore, for me. I don't play the meta because winning is not my motivation for playing. Playing is.

So people reading this guide of Victor's: If winning is your primary motivation in playing a game, then you should probably follow his commandments, though as he himself pointed out the ballistics meta mechs are superior winning machines to LRM mechs, so perhaps you should just ignore LRMs entirely and go with ACs and PPCs. If playing is your motivation in playing a game, play the game you want to play, and be happy.

[1453 R]

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Umm... I'm a guy...

Not anymore, you're not. Instructions and materials for swapping out your Man Card are in the mail. Management expects to see you in skirts by next Thursday. No excuses.

Shar: I'm perfectly willing to debate the merits and drawbacks of the Lurmisher playstyle in a reasonable and productive manner. I'm fairly sure neither Victor nor Tesunie are really doing that anymore - the both of them have pulled in their horns and aren't really listening anymore. It's sad; I can so easily see where both of them are coming from, but Victor is Victor and Tesunie's going to defend that Stalker until the entire Internet rusts away.

I'll leave it with just a single point, I suppose. Tesunie: if I was in, say, my JR7-D(S) (yes, the (S) is important. Get 'em good), and you were in your STK-3F, there's a super-cool thing I could do that I couldn't really get away with against a pilot in a Lurmisher medium.

Builds assumed for comparison, for the sake of clarity:

Tesunie's STK-3F: Cap'n Ahab
1453-R's JR7-D(S): Get 'Em Good

Anyways. Looking at Tesunie's Stalker, it's clear as crystal that the 'Mech is intended primarily for bombarding enemies with its LRM launchers. Nobody brings eight tons of ammo for backup weapons. In this instance, the 'Mech is also equipped with four medium lasers and two Streak SRM-2s as personal defense weapons. This allows the Stalker to fight back against lightweight threats, such as my Jenner, and possibly even kill them if the light pilot is sufficiently terrible/Tesunie is sufficiently on the ball.

Here's the thing, Tesunie - that means I don't have to kill you to disable you.

If I can get close to you and just keep harassing you, tossing SRMs and laserfire at you every few seconds whilst ducking around and focusing primarily on avoiding your return fire, then I have effectively taken your Stalker out of the fight. Your LRM batteries - the BattleMech's primary weapons - are going to be going silent because you can't afford to leave me alone to chew up your backplates. I don't even have to focus especially on killing you - simply be being able to threaten you, I can force you into your fallback weapons and remove your primary armament from play. Sure, this means I spend all game playing tag with an LRM battery if I'm insufficiently awesome to finish you off myself, but you know what? I'll trade my 35 tons to keep your 85 tons out of the game any time you'll let me.

A Lurmisher medium moving ninety klicks an hour doesn't ever really need to make that choice. My Treb can scrape lights off on its teammates far, far easier than your Stalker can, and if it comes down to a situation where I can't, for whatever reason, scrape the light off...well, you know what? Trading 35 tons for 50 tons is a whole helluva lot more even than trading 35 for 85.

Edited by 1453 R, 17 January 2014 - 04:21 PM.

[Victor Morson]

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Victor, I'm going to continue to stand by the evidence, you don't know what you are talking about with the Stalker... It seems like you never touched one, and are making false "presumptions". I have made my 85 ton mech do the same damage as a 35 ton mech AND a 50-65 ton mech. Basically, I am covering the same abilities (though not roles) of 90 tons worth of mechs, in a single mech. That's what Assaults can do, and I have the armor to get away with it. So, no, I don't have a problem with being able to protect myself and other nearby teammates from fast light mechs with my SSRMs and 4 med lasers, while at the same time being able to preform like a 50-65 ton mech in the LRM support role.

Despite 1453 R's best efforts (and very well written by the way man!) I see you still don't get it.

A lot of why I've continued to argue this point is because it needs to be said here, for newbies reading the guide, that what Tesunie is talking about doesn't really work well at all.

If you enjoy playing a gimmick or sub-par build, that's totally fine. I own a few myself. I sometimes even drive my Awesome for kicks. It's all good. But I'm not going to attempt to classify it as a "really good 'mech" that's capable of hanging with proper designs, and that's what is going on in these posts.

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Jump jets increase speed? Nope. Sorry. JJ might throw off my aim, maybe. And his UAC5s can jam. And he probably is running an XL, with adds more weaknesses for me to take advantage of. I'm not saying I will win, but I have a chance of winning.

Jump Jet gliding allows you to maintain range. It's not so much the tiny 14kph speed increase that matters at all; it's the ability to point directly away from your Stalker, hit the jets, turn and then proceed to unload all my forward guns while moving away at full speed.

That's why Jump Jets are a huge boon to range control, and evasive piloting in general. It's not about going as high as you can, but rather, the ability to "skate" around the battlefield in these scenarios.

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

You didn't say AC5, you said dual UAC5. Dual UAC5 (18 tons, 9 tons a piece) plus ammo (4-5 tons), plus 2 PPCs (14 tons, 7 tons each), plus heat sinks for it all... If it's going to have the speed most people expect and want, it's going to have to go XL... Unless it's really slow.

I didn't take the time to optimize this right now, but here you go:
Example Victor (Not Slow)

A 300 standard with 2 UAC/5, 2 PPC, and 5 tons of ammo. Again, it's got a tiny bit of left over tonnage because I didn't take time making it a real perfect build, just putting this out there to show you how wrong you are on this.

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

Here, how about this. You have a Stalker 3F you bought, for whatever reason. You want to make it work as it's your first mech you bought (just a proposed example) and you love it. You have a Standard 300 engine for it, DHS, Endo, Artemis, and enough c-bills to alter a few things (but probably not enough for a different engine). Build me a mech. How would you approach this if you where to make a Stalker 3F build? 5 Large Lasers (meta)? Two-four Large, 4 SSRM2s? Two LRM10s, two LRM5s, and a TAG only? What would you do with it.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...18879eec12791fa

To be entirely honest? Not buy a Stalker. Ghost Heat destroyed builds like the 5 large lasers you mentioned (which were awesome and fun), so only the Misery gets used much anymore. To be entirely honest if I were to build a Stalker, it'd probably either run the old 4 PPC standby and setup a macro to time the Ghost Heat, or set it up as an oversized splat cat with some PPCs mixed.

Neither would be be very great, but they would play to the Stalker's strengths.

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

(What is directed at me:)
That is what I've been kinda trying to make the point of. I can be effective without being "super-efficient". I suspect you know what I mean here. There is a difference between those two concepts.

One of my problems is, he didn't "gear" this guide towards "that section of play" but instead at the "newbie players". These are great advice, but I just can't get behind all of it being "necessary" for LRMs to work. If he didn't tell me "you're a bad player" because I don't follow every facet of his guide, I wouldn't have a problem. (I also suggest for new players to bring a few backup weapons, as they aren't as skilled with the game, and thus don't always know where to be and where not to be, and when to be or not be there. Suggest means, I recommend, not that they "have to do it or they are bad", which is the difference.)

I didn't say you were a bad player, and everyone is free to ignore any advice here and run whatever they want. But they will be less effective for it.

This guide was, again, built to give newbies access to information on how to be the most effective. They can take from that what they will.

Tesunie, on 17 January 2014 - 12:24 PM, said:

As far as Victors mates in light mechs, they might rip me apart, they might not. However, even if they do rip me apart, I'll at least leave my mark on them before I go,

I honestly don't know if you'd ever even get the Streaks in play at all.

[Victor Morson]

1453 R, on 17 January 2014 - 04:21 PM, said:

Shar: I'm perfectly willing to debate the merits and drawbacks of the Lurmisher playstyle in a reasonable and productive manner. I'm fairly sure neither Victor nor Tesunie are really doing that anymore - the both of them have pulled in their horns and aren't really listening anymore. It's sad; I can so easily see where both of them are coming from, but Victor is Victor and Tesunie's going to defend that Stalker until the entire Internet rusts away.

Oh I'm listening, and I'm also totally 110% cool with people playing casual "fun builds" if they want.

The only reason I'm still arguing any of these points is I won't concede that the message to give to new people is "Play with whatever style you like and everything will be sunshine and roses."

That's the point I'm sticking by. I'm not going to say those kinds of designs are optimal when they are from it.