511 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

I know what you are saying, but I get awestruck when I see a good 4man fighting in formation picking a target and eliminating it. It makes me want to drop with my fellow Lawmen, but most are off on Tatooine.

I get it, and that would be fine if every time we dropped, both sides had that kind of 4 man on their side.

But it really doesn't seem to be happening that way.

Also it would help if PGI would institute some social tools in the game that weren't from the 1980's. That would encourage grouping and make it more convenient. I realize there would still be people who want to play solo.

But EVERYTHING about grouping in this game is fubar, from the queue's to the friend's list, to the crappy group tools, to no VOIP integration and the lack of any kind of chat room/meeting area in game so you can actually find people.

[Iskareot]

wanderer, on 29 January 2014 - 07:10 AM, said:

If the "elitist" doesn't have his buddies via sync drops, the problem is considerably lessened. Thus that earlier suggestion to put a small random delay on queue entry. You can't match up reliably, you don't get your snowball maker.

He's just a better PUG player and the bigger the game size, the smaller his impact becomes when he doesn't have buddies to roll with and has to deal with the same random everyone else does.

Agreed and logical. I feel us getting closer to some sort of system but who knows...

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

I know what you are saying, but I get awestruck when I see a good 4man fighting in formation picking a target and eliminating it. It makes me want to drop with my fellow Lawmen, but most are off on Tatooine.

Not me, I get awestruck when I see one real good pilot. Concentrated fire is easy and a no skill solution. There is a reason i stay pug. What I win/score is mine. Need no crutches. Not to say I don't appreciate good team work because i do. But team work based on instinct and intuition not comms. No way to tell if a premade is doing one or the other.

[Khobai]

exactly. anyone can do good in a premade. I get so sick of people that play 4-mans, roll a bunch of pugs, then brag about being elite.

whats difficult is carrying an entire team of 11 other ******* by yourself. thats what impresses me.

[CrashieJ]

I believe that premades should drop with and ONLY with other premades.

It's like playing a game of American football with a group of friends on your team along with a stranger and his friends with you:
you can kinda figure out how to synchronize to their steps if you have the right mindset.

now lets add a few strangers who've only played Golf, a game that is damn near "every man for them-self".

now you have people who don't know how to AM Football doing golf things on the grid...
----

*Smack*

----

[Joseph Mallan]

Iskareot, on 30 January 2014 - 07:26 AM, said:

Well sadly this is a whole other issue in it's own right. Honestly this is more towards, game design then game balance though. Sure I wish we had more of the real game in this... but I don't see it going so overboard it becomes a risk vs reward system. Too much issues with that in a game..... Permadeath, Perma loss of a item.. Oh yeah that does not work well in video games.... I know I was in those.. they went bad after a while. So in the end you need the base... at least show balance choice at the start then build on it. Last night I went up against a drop that we were so destroyed it was not funny.. .within about 90 seconds this thing was over. It was so imbalanced the other team was saying sorry and they had NO idea how this could be so bad. (They had three people score over 800 to give you an idea... we were lucky we had one guy with 400) the rest was wayyyyy ugly. I mean it was stupid and clear we had new people and trials and they were a good premade team... like really good.

I shrugged it off but then I just realized this is stupid. Why did that have to waste 8 mins of my time just to see and KNOW that it was over before it started. - All of that could be avoided too

Hey I am good with keeping my Mech, but there is nothing stopping the DEVs from giving your team an Atlas-D, except need and greed. But I could handle the Mech being given out like this. You and I are fighting Darklord (A cataphract). You are up to 70% of the kill, I drop Dark! You get the Need/Greed for the chassis. You "need" I get my 7,500C-bill bonus and Maybe an Ultra5. If you greed, I get to Need, and you'd get the 7,500 an the Ultra. Plus the damage done bonus as well.

[Pyrrho]

Khobai, on 30 January 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

exactly. anyone can do good in a premade. I get so sick of people that play 4-mans, roll a bunch of pugs, then brag about being elite.

whats difficult is carrying an entire team of 11 other ******* by yourself. thats what impresses me.

Most of the time, if you brag about being elite, it is because secretly you know you aren't. An exception:

[Joseph Mallan]

Mudhutwarrior, on 30 January 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Not me, I get awestruck when I see one real good pilot. Concentrated fire is easy and a no skill solution. There is a reason i stay pug. What I win/score is mine. Need no crutches. Not to say I don't appreciate good team work because i do. But team work based on instinct and intuition not comms. No way to tell if a premade is doing one or the other.

Sorry man but you know the benefits of overlapping fields of fire. An saying it is a no skill solution... You sure you are retired military? Cause I have yet to hear one dismiss a combat staple.

What I Win/Score is mine as a Lawman as well. My Kills are mine, my assists are mine, the team wins if we work better together than your team. I take credit for my part of that win.

[Navy Sixes]

Mudhutwarrior, on 25 January 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

I agree but if the base is as small as I think it is it could be bad on everyone. Now when you say that on any other thread the same people tell you tour wrong and its growing. If it is growing then I agree it would be great. I think ingame voip would at least give pugs, noobs and casuals a chance in the meantime. It certainly will let us help the noobs better in match.

Jalik, on 26 January 2014 - 01:54 AM, said:

the number of players really could be a problem. we don't really know the numbers but PGI seems hesitant to separate the queues (they also were after introduction 3rd person view) so maybe they see a problem here. I also agree that playing against well co-ordinated groups every now and then can only improve your gameplay ... if you don't get frustrated when its happening all night and finally rage quit. After all, PUG players should not just serve as cannon fodder for the premades to provide fun just for them. Eventually, with growing player base (maybe somewhere in community warefare) they should consider to add an option to separate the queues. Maybe this is in the works anyways for leages and stuff. who knows.

As already mentioned, premade sometimes just means some friends casually playing together. they don't want to get stomped either.

I'm gonna push back on this. PGI introduced skirmish, and a LOT of players no longer play assault/conquest. I play "any," and I never have a problem finding an assault/conquest match. I think the community is large enough to survive a split.

The PUGs would be fine. The real problem is that there may not be enough premades to support their own matches. Which is funny, because they keep telling us that they play the game the way it's meant to be played, but the fact is there are way more PUGers than there are team-players. What's more, many prem members drop solo often, when they can't get with their team.

While I think it would be better to separate PUGs from prems, I think the best way to make a prem-only matches viable is positive reinforcement: make the xp/cbill bonuses in prem-only matches more robust. Making new and inexperienced solo players take a pounding at the hands of coordinated prems in the PUG is a lousy way to encourage more team-play. After a few nights of drubbings, a new player is more likely to quit than sign up on TS.

Give us an environment where rewards are limited, but players can learn and grow and perfect their individual skills. Then give us a "next level" of team-play, where "the way the game is meant to be played" is rewarded by bigger in-game rewards, not by providing new and uncoordinated solo players to easy-smash.

I don't think prems are evil or a "problem." I think most are good peps dropping with their buds, which sounds like fun. A few are heel-dragging, KDR-padding a**hats that are as much of a hazard to their teammates as they are a threat to the enemy. Even then they are not evil; they are pathetic.

[wanderer]

And I honestly think that giving people some carrots for premading along with putting those same premades into their own queues is a good idea.|

Give people a small XP/larger C-bill bonus for dropping in premades- best being 4-man. 1.1 exp/1.2 C-bill multiplier for 2-man, 1.2/1.3 for 3-man, 1.25/1.33 for 4-man. 12-man groups get 1.25/1.33 as well.

Then use that premade queue for making 12v12s. I'd rather see 3 premade lances per side for those, then if and only if a wide-ELO sweep fails to find premades to glue in lone wolves to fill in gaps.

PUGs should never see a premade unless they're being used to fill in a gap, and their effective ELO should be reduced by 20% or so to represent the lack of organization a "tag-along" would provide. Add a small, random delay to queue entry to disrupt sync-dropping stomps. PUGs that -are- stuffed into a premade queue as filler also get an exp/C-bill bonus: if there's two of them "filling" it's 1.2 exp/1.3 C-bills, one 1.1/1.2. Call it a bonus for being target practice.

[Joseph Mallan]

I know what you are saying, but I was happy when I was a PUG vs up to 8 man teams. We were supposed to be facing everything from Greens to Elite and Legendary playes. Random + Random= What the Heck was that?

You should not know what the opponent will be like. As MW:O stands now. here is no game, You are not winning a planet, factory or secret designs for a Heavy Gauss. SO what we have been doing is merely data collection. How we could get our jimmies in a twist when battling for nothing but reputation, is just beyond me.

[Xtrekker]

WHOA.

Whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. I ain't twistin' no jimmies.

[Dracol]

Iskareot, on 25 January 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

So what would happen if pugs actually could fight their equal other solo players and premades had to fight their own equal premades?

What would be so bad about that balance of play?

Obvious pros are equal or at least MORE balance then we have now based on logic....

But would the matches go longer? Would the pugs be mad that we were more or less organized?

Would the premades be mad they could not farm the pugs? OR that they would have balance forced on them?

Why is this still not in the game? NOBODY should lose any options.. make that clear.. both sides should be able to keep their fun. But shouldn't new people and current players have a choice of the way to drop to help balance the matches?

What is so wrong about this? Not enough people? (IF this Is the case we have bigger issues).

Just a thought concerning the basic nature of a pre-made only drop.... how do you fill open slots?

with the current 4-man or less option, would you:
-Require all groups to be 4 man groups?
-Leave open one spot for the 4/4/3 team
-Increase wait times so there are more chances to finding the right sized group at the right Elo?

Maybe a combination?

And that is only in the current situation. It has all ready been stated by the devs that the option to drop in any sized group is in the works.

What would you do about the 11-man team? Always make them drop a man short?


IF the player base ever wants group sizes between 5 and 11, then lone wolves will always be dropping with pre-mades to fill the gaps.

[Xtrekker]

Typical night last night...

VS 1 premade

Spoiler

VS PUGs

Spoiler

Now, I did take issue with one of those Victors when I jammed him up against a wall pumping 3xLL into his red CT after stripping all armor from both legs, RA, RT, and CT and he suddenly stopped taking any damage, but that's another story.

However, case in point, here's what one premade lance can do to a typical PUG team.

And the next point, why am I in the same queue with some of these poor newbies?

Elo is broken. Premade stomps my team, my Elo goes down. Then poor newbie has to face me in the PUGoff. It's a mess and premades are borking the system.

Edited by Xtrekker, 30 January 2014 - 11:45 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Iskareot, on 25 January 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

So what would happen if pugs actually could fight their equal other solo players and premades had to fight their own equal premades?

What would be so bad about that balance of play?

Obvious pros are equal or at least MORE balance then we have now based on logic....

But would the matches go longer? Would the pugs be mad that we were more or less organized?

Would the premades be mad they could not farm the pugs? OR that they would have balance forced on them?

Why is this still not in the game? NOBODY should lose any options.. make that clear.. both sides should be able to keep their fun. But shouldn't new people and current players have a choice of the way to drop to help balance the matches?

What is so wrong about this? Not enough people? (IF this Is the case we have bigger issues).

They would complain that my weapon load was unfair for some reason. Or my Paint made me hard to see and therefore I was cheating. Something like that I would think.

Trekker in both examples the team that worked best together won. And your first PUG example was a bigger blow out than the Vs Premade.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 30 January 2014 - 11:52 AM.

[Xtrekker]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Trekker in both examples the team that worked best together won. And your first PUG example was a bigger blow out than the Vs Premade.

My point is that even a very good pugger (I presume I am) can't typically carry a team against even a small group working together on comms. Look how consistent their damage is...all working as one, all putting damage on a target, screening their damaged wings from further damage. Pugs can't fight against that. When they do, it's rare. I promise their win ratio is high, built on the backs of PUGs. That means people like (99.99% PUG) me are pushed lower into the Elo pool, and even on level ground (PUGs vs PUGs), new players are screwed.

Pull premades out of the mix, the PUG Elo pool settles and premades are given a fair challenge in their own arena.

[Mudhutwarrior]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 January 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Sorry man but you know the benefits of overlapping fields of fire. An saying it is a no skill solution... You sure you are retired military? Cause I have yet to hear one dismiss a combat staple.

What I Win/Score is mine as a Lawman as well. My Kills are mine, my assists are mine, the team wins if we work better together than your team. I take credit for my part of that win.

Benefit? Depends on how your fighting. Most 2nd generation warfare will benefit but in 4gw you have a problem. Not many understand that but many fighting where I was do. We can send thousands of rounds downrange to match an insurgents 20 rounds in overlapping and concentrated fire. If your not on target he escapes to get another thousand rounds. In a short war that's fine but in prolonged conflict you have a real problem without massive resupply. I heard it to many times to count. Units short on ammo after a quick engagement with no kills to show for it.
Here in this game its smart to concentrate fire but its a low skill solution and a good sniper can counter it. Issue is a premade with comms has advantage but I am sure in your group matches you have encountered a good sniper team with comms. Does concentrated fire help then past suppression? Group think can kill and does regularly on the field.

Like I said I would rather have a team of marksmen than four guys who can aim at the same designated target. Concentrated fire is an easy button.

[Abivard]

What about 1 in a 1000 matches will have solo's on one side and a single premade on the other.


There is nothing in this game that tries to match solo players to premades. (BTW a PuG is pick up group, so if you are pugging, you are in a premade)

It will match 1st drop newbies with the most skilled and elite pilots however, and it does this on a regular basis.

MM does not do anything more than try and find 24 people for a drop. It is rumored that players are matched by Elo, which is real, but may or may not exist in MWO.

Empirical data suggests that while all players have an Elo, it is rated in such a way that it often bears no correspondence to the players actual skill.

The parameters for matching also insure there can be huge gaps between the low skilled and high skilled players in a match, basically it can span the whole range of Elo, from top to bottom in a single drop. Premade groups actually exacerbate this situation,

If each mech and variant had it's own Elo rating, maybe it could improve somewhat. but the old saying of garbage in garbage out is well established by MWO's MM based off what they loosely term 'MWO Elo system' another place where MWO has garbage in and garbage out.

So it should be no surprise that the drops are all mostly garbage drops?

Don't treat the symptoms, cure the cause.

[Abivard]

p.s. the only thing that would change is that the whiners could not blame the 'others' for losing so much. And lots longer wait times,the solo grievers will simply sync drop solo in massive numbers. if they get on opposite teams they will often ignore each other and concentrate on the other players, using voice com to betray their non-aligned team mates... Pretty much the same thing when they sync drop in premades.

But this is a tiny fraction of players who do this. But that's what will change, the word 'premade' will drop fromthe whines and be replaced with 'sync dropping newb farmers'

As so many will be constantly using that term, and it runs to more than 4 letters, expect an abbreviation for it to soon surface.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Here is my thing. PGI likes to say that ELO works, the matchmaker is great, and premades aren't constantly stomping PUGs.

If that's the case, bare MINIMUM, indicate premades on the startscreen.

Even better would be, show us not only premades but ELO and let the math wizards here do their work.

If it's all fine and dandy, do this and shut us up.

But I think they know better and are scared.