540 replies to this topic

[Triordinant]

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

When so many of the knuckledragging epeen players are trying to roll up their stats and dropping in 4man teams of Stalker, Highlander, Highlander, DDC Atlas or some variation of the above and then sync dropping their 4mans.

Played in a match last week where our 4man was teamed with 2 other 4mans, facing 3 other 4mans. and those 5 4mans in the drop were all sync dropping trying not to face each other but to roll pugs. All were in assault/heavy lances all were ppc/gauss/uac5 builds with a few mass LRM builds for giggles.

This is why MWO definitely needs a premade-free, PUG-only queue. Everyone would benefit, except for the sync-dropping "knuckledragging epeen players" described above -and all would benefit from their leaving.

[Craig Steele]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2014 - 06:23 AM, said:

I don't see it that way though.

We are entering ourselves into a random match generator.
With multiple variables.
So if I lose to 8 Assaults and 4 heavies in a mixed weight team, well the military axiom is Military Intelligence... isn't! We want to play a fighting game that is supposed to be LIKE military combat. It's got a fair amount of random in it, and I like it like that. I don't wanna know my enemy is hand picked to be an even fight for me! Where is the WOW factor in that?

Because we think we are meant to have a 50/50 chance of winning many get mad when success does not come their way, cause the deck was randomly stacked against them. What are they going to do when they want to attack a planet the Law is protecting and we don't play nice cause we don't want to give them a chance to win it from us?

Seriously, why do we have to give you a chance to take our stuff?

Except not everyone plays games for the same reason you do Joseph (or me for that matter). A Lot of people play for a sense of entertainment and challenge and rightly or wrongly, our scenario's is not everyones cup of tea. Games are not life and death and people play for entertainment. If the PGI want to provide an environment where players are challenged and entertained they will be successful. If they don't, their player base is going to be very small.

Its about having the broadest possible base of customers, and giving them a tool that can play with to suit their own entertainment needs. Wanna play 240 tons vs 960, sure. Heres a lobby system and that floats your boat.

But for the casual gamer playing a few hours (which is there preferred market cause they are the ones who pay for wants, not grind for them) the system needs to give them a sense of satisfaction at the press of a button.

NextGame, on 27 January 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

No ownership assumed on my part. I prefer it when people work out how to play games for themselves, rather than get spoon fed. But if others want to show people how to play, then they can go for it as far as I'm concerned.

The point was: *You* are complaining about people being unhelpful towards the OP. How does this assist anyone or address the issue? Some players are probably still going to be {Scrap}, and lose every match, and whine about their own lack of ability. People are going to continue to be bored by this.

The nature of the game modes will not change, certainly not in the short/medium term at least, and a map where a team is 3+ mechs down will generally continue to snowball into a stomp, especially a team where there's 1 disconnect, an afk'er, and some other twit hiding at the back in an assault afraid to take any damage/contribute to the team.

No meddling with ELO/Matchmaker/Whatever is going to resolve the issue for the worst players in the game. It is something that they can only address for themselves.

"Man up & play better" is the only reasonable advice that can be given, as that is what everyone else playing the game has to do in order to avoid being "stomped".

So your view is, it is what is and stop complaining about it, I did the hard way, you should do it the hard way to, why should this game be any better for you than it was for me. If someone else wants to help you out thats up to them, if you don't like the game as is though, don't play? Is that a fair enough summary?

[Joseph Mallan]

But that is exactly the point, no matter what PGI does someone will always complain.

[NextGame]

Nightcrept, on 27 January 2014 - 06:42 AM, said:

NO that is not reasonable advise. That's a good way to lose players.

Some people are not as good as others and never will be. That is the purpose of elo and other methods of matchmaking.
To just throw all players together would be to tell all but the top 20% or so of the player base to quit.

So what you are saying is that online team based multiplayer shooters should not have some element of skill dependence and competitiveness?

I was reading an article today about some school where, during team based sporting events, they take players from winning sides at half time and move them to the losing team to give them a chance. Is something like that what you are after in order that the bads get to feel less bad, and everyone else feels like their efforts at actually trying to win are either wasted or hollow?

Winning is fun. If it wasn't part of the reason people play, there wouldn't be whining threads about losing streaks. So where is the problem in advising that players put more effort into actually improving their game and trying to win?

Edited by NextGame, 27 January 2014 - 07:06 AM.

[DaZur]

I recall reading an article about conditioned response...

In short, they set up 50 sequential tests where a test subject was given a brief mental challenge. If they won they were rewarded with a cookie... when they lost, a mild shock to the index finger. At the conclusion of the tests the asked the participant how many cookies they ate and how many shocks they received... In all cases (100 participants) had a 100% recollection of the number of shocks received but could not accurately enumerate the number cookies eaten...

Point is... while stomps are definitely happening, I believe players frame of reference is skewed... I think most players at worst shake down a 50/50 ratio and far more likely are winning more than losing but the stark contrast between a good match and bad match leads players to believe there is a larger inequity that there really is...

On a personal note... I've experienced probably the most compelling and enjoyable even-handed matches I ever had since the last Elo / match-making adjustment.

Edited by DaZur, 27 January 2014 - 07:09 AM.

[RF Greywolf]

Something I think that needs brought up with these 'stomps'. I was on the winning side of a 'stomp', AKA 12-1 win. It was on Torm Desert and both teams got into a huge brawl by the stargate. After the brawl was over, 11-1 at that point, someone on our team called out for status. My lance's best condition mech was a Hunchback at 40% (my Wolverine only had the head mounted ML and every location blood red). Most of our team was running on duck tape and some prayer, in fact I think the last remaining mech on the enemy team could've one shot most of us. SO for the enemy team it looked like a 'stomp' but for us it was a really close game. I think they should show health percentage on the end of match screen to show how close of a game the match might have been.

[NextGame]

Craig Steele, on 27 January 2014 - 06:52 AM, said:

So your view is, it is what is and stop complaining about it, I did the hard way, you should do it the hard way to, why should this game be any better for you than it was for me. If someone else wants to help you out thats up to them, if you don't like the game as is though, don't play? Is that a fair enough summary?

Damn right it is. If I was getting zero enjoyment from the game I wouldn't play it. It's really straightforward. Just as I, and everyone else on this board, most likely including yourself, no longer play hundreds of games they own/have owned as their interest in those titles have expired.

Is the game perfect? No, it is heavily flawed and underdeveloped. In fact I am quite irritated that I perceive a need to put forward an opinion that is generally in line with some of the whitest of knights on this forum. However the reality is when it comes to the match gameplay itself; In an online multiplayer shooter there is no substitute for personal ability, and that is something that only comes through effort.

Additionally: what fairer standard to hold up as being good enough for other people than what is good enough for oneself?

Edited by NextGame, 27 January 2014 - 07:11 AM.

[SgtKinCaiD]

As already stated the main problem is not the tonnage, it's the disparity of level between the players of the same team. In every of those boring match, you'll see that the loosing side has nearly a full lance (if not more) of mech that can't break the 10 points mark.

[Joseph Mallan]

Can be kinda hard to get good numbers when your enemy is applying overlapping fields of fire to concentrate death on you.

[C E Dwyer]

NextGame, on 27 January 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

No ownership assumed on my part. I prefer it when people work out how to play games for themselves, rather than get spoon fed. But if others want to show people how to play, then they can go for it as far as I'm concerned.

The point was: *You* are complaining about people being unhelpful towards the OP. How does this assist anyone or address the issue? Some players are probably still going to be {Scrap}, and lose every match, and whine about their own lack of ability. People are going to continue to be bored by this.

The nature of the game modes will not change, certainly not in the short/medium term at least, and a map where a team is 3+ mechs down will generally continue to snowball into a stomp, especially a team where there's 1 disconnect, an afk'er, and some other twit hiding at the back in an assault afraid to take any damage/contribute to the team, making everyone wonder why they bothered dropping in the first place.

No meddling with ELO/Matchmaker/Whatever is going to resolve the issue for the worst players in the game. It is something that they can only address for themselves.

"Man up & play better" is the only reasonable advice that can be given, as that is what everyone else playing the game has to do in order to avoid being "stomped". Think Jump sniping is OP? Use it. Think LRMs are OP? Use them. Think teamwork and premades are OP? Join in.

I really do want to completely agree with what you have said, the cadet bonus sponges, the hide away assaults, the deliberate disco jockey's which crept into the game from last summer, but telling people to man up..^^


Match maker went to hell the moment the big maps and the 12v12 came into the game, the issue stems from population being to small to support big maps and 12 a side, every single attempt to make this game better, comes in a year late and a dollar short.

This all falls into PGI's lap as people got bored and frustrating waiting on things that were promised a year ago and are still not here and won't be for another 10 months.

Teams get dropped with more noobs than ever because the population forces the elo to add people eother to low or to high for the skill level.

I do sometimes fall into the WTH is wrong with your people out of sheer frustration, but antsy attitude and telling people to man up is only going to cripple the population further

[TWIAFU]

IceCase88, on 26 January 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

It is not matchmaker or ELO. It is the vast majority of people in the game or devoid of any semblance of military tactics. Ideas of taking, and holding, advantageous territory, cover, concealment, covering fire, dynamically taking territory, etc are lost on most of the players. They usually see the first red blip on the screen and 3/4, or more, of your team is chasing it down to get the kill. Many times hitting each other as much as they are hitting the enemy. Then they are way out of position and giving the opposing force the advantage.

You sir, speak the truth.

Those that understand and employ basic combat tactics and communicate are the ones that win.

[Craig Steele]

NextGame, on 27 January 2014 - 07:06 AM, said:

Damn right it is. If I was getting zero enjoyment from the game I wouldn't play it. It's really straightforward. Just as I, and everyone else on this board, most likely including yourself, no longer play hundreds of games they own/have owned as their interest in those titles have expired.

Is the game perfect? No, it is heavily flawed and underdeveloped. In fact I am quite irritated that I perceive a need to put forward an opinion that is generally in line with some of the whitest of knights on this forum. However the reality is when it comes to the match gameplay itself; In an online multiplayer shooter there is no substitute for personal ability, and that is something that only comes through effort.

Additionally: what fairer standard to hold up as being good enough for other people than what is good enough for oneself?

All very valid, but my point is and remains, more people seem to be NOT enjoying the game in its current format and the "lump it or shove off" attitude that PGI and others seem to have adopted will kill the game faster than anything.

I am sorry, but your world is your world and more people seem to be wanting a lot more than what you are happy with. I am not saying your wrong, I am saying its not sustainable.

[C E Dwyer]

SgtKinCaiD, on 27 January 2014 - 07:12 AM, said:

As already stated the main problem is not the tonnage, it's the disparity of level between the players of the same team. In every of those boring match, you'll see that the loosing side has nearly a full lance (if not more) of mech that can't break the 10 points mark.

its not the skill levels pure tonne differences is the major reason for stomps 6 assaults 2 heavies 2 mediums 2 lights

are all ways going to win again 1 assault 1 heavy and 10 mediums.

unless the ELO is so bad that all the assaults in team 1 are straight out the box, and half the mediums in team 2 are very high elo skilled players.

and these are the weight differences i'm being in or face over and over again, if MM gets tonnage within 250 these days its a stunningly well balanced match

[Craig Steele]

TWIAFU, on 27 January 2014 - 07:27 AM, said:

You sir, speak the truth.

Those that understand and employ basic combat tactics and communicate are the ones that win.

Absolutely, and given these are such critical factors to the games entertainment its irresponsible PGI have not made it a core aspect of the game they provide instead of assuming the population will take it up.

[C E Dwyer]

DaZur, on 27 January 2014 - 07:04 AM, said:

I recall reading an article about conditioned response...

In short, they set up 50 sequential tests where a test subject was given a brief mental challenge. If they won they were rewarded with a cookie... when they lost, a mild shock to the index finger. At the conclusion of the tests the asked the participant how many cookies they ate and how many shocks they received... In all cases (100 participants) had a 100% recollection of the number of shocks received but could not accurately enumerate the number cookies eaten...

Point is... while stomps are definitely happening, I believe players frame of reference is skewed... I think most players at worst shake down a 50/50 ratio and far more likely are winning more than losing but the stark contrast between a good match and bad match leads players to believe there is a larger inequity that there really is...

On a personal note... I've experienced probably the most compelling and enjoyable even-handed matches I ever had since the last Elo / match-making adjustment.

I've watched ghost busters to

I know what your saying its like driving on the roads, you never remember the person who let you out a junction, but you all ways remember the butt hole that pulled out in front of you or cut you up.


However I started to roughly record wins loses weights etc and the bad games are nearly all ways caused by poor tonnage differences, yes some do fly in the face of what looked the likely outcome, obviously looked at after the match ended, because your opponents are hidden, but those games are rare

Edited by Cathy, 27 January 2014 - 07:35 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Cathy, what is the weight mismatch that seems to be the tipping point? I know what I consider to be a "lopsided" battle is higher than what many would call one. Once I see a 20-25 ton per Mech advantage, That is what I would consider a tough match to have won.

[Magna Canus]

Interesting thread, here my 2 C-bills:

My definition of a stomp: 12-3 or less in under 4 minutes.

Premade limitations: It would be nice compromise when the MM would limit each team to 1 premade per side, if one team has one then the other does too or both have none. This would eliminate the issue with Sync-drops in 4-man teams, but I guess epeen strokers would then try to mass drop solo. That is a hard issue to handle.

Weight limitations: Some people are going to suck no matter what chassis they drive. I have seen negative ELO matterial driving all sorts of Assults and some seriously glorious ******** driving lights and visa versa. Weight matching though is kinda important, though honestly on most days, 1vs1, a Jenner will tear appart some Assaults.

Game satisfaction & "easy mode": I think that a lot of people are used to playing single player games with "easy mode" on and are not used to working on improoving their game. "Hey, this game is too hard, let me switch to easy mode....". I get satisfaction out of this game when I know that I personally have done well by my own standards. It is nice to win, but I know that I am not the only factor and am not at fault for all the silly stuff others do, and I know that I am also not always the reason why my team wins. What IS important is that I do good for me, by my own standards, in the heat of combat.

Game modes / objectives; This is a combat game. The main focus IS fighting, damage, kills, and wins. Being able to Cap to get a win is nice. Gathering ressources is nice, but that is not the main focus of the game and never should be. If I want to gather ressources and not fight I can play some Facebook farm game. If I want to jump and run and ninja my way to an objective I can play Mario or some similar. If I want to get in a heavily armed robot and kick a$$, I play MWO.

I also agree to a previous post that said that if you think something is OP, use it. If you want to win, use it. If you are tired of getting stomped, use it. This includes joining a clan and dropping in a group. I PUG and I drop in groups 50/50 so I know both sides of the coin. There are premades out there that are terribad and there are really good ones. There are PUGs out that that suck like black holes and others that are simply glorious to behold.

In the end this is a game, so don't bother getting mad about it. There are other things much more worth your anger.

[General Taskeen]

IGP/PGI decided on WoT random match making, so this is what MWO gets, mostly random stomps.

MW just isn't suited so well to this style of matchmaker. If they had done it like 3025 MPBT where each team basically determined whether it is balanced or not to launch the game (pre-lobby, and also like DoTA for example), then matches might be better. As is, you can't choose your map - so you can't determine the best camouflage or weapon loadouts and you can't decide whether to play in the match beforehand by seeing what the other team has.

MW is best with drop-in/drop-out style server browsers (and modes to support drop-in/drop-out gameplay) and/or lobbies.

[DaZur]

Craig Steele, on 27 January 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

Absolutely, and given these are such critical factors to the games entertainment its irresponsible PGI have not made it a core aspect of the game they provide instead of assuming the population will take it up.

What a steaming pile of horse pucky...

How exactly is it the ability and willingness of a the player environment to put in play some form of fundamental combat tactics the fault of PGI?

[Joseph Mallan]

Craig Steele, on 27 January 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

Absolutely, and given these are such critical factors to the games entertainment its irresponsible PGI have not made it a core aspect of the game they provide instead of assuming the population will take it up.

Well PGI supports NG:NG Server, NA Server and the EU Server for TS. Sure VOiP would probably help, but with random teams dropping against dedicated teams you would still see stomps just as often and the whine would likely continue.