540 replies to this topic

[Sandpit]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Pre mades have more experience working together so they are stomping VOiP users still!

They're also getting stomped. I've been rolled just as many times as I've rolled. Premade =/= insta win, stomp, or any other win type. It means I'm usually laughing and joking and having some fun with guys in my unit.

[Ngamok]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 January 2014 - 11:19 AM, said:

Pre mades have more experience working together so they are stomping VOiP users still!

Nah, it's more like pre mades listen to each other where the other people generally ignore it or don't pay attention.

[Joseph Mallan]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

They're also getting stomped. I've been rolled just as many times as I've rolled. Premade =/= insta win, stomp, or any other win type. It means I'm usually laughing and joking and having some fun with guys in my unit.

I was only playing Devil's Advocate!

[Malcolm Vordermark]

Honestly, I hope VOIP never gets integrated into the game. I would rather use teamspeak than to spend to opening minutes of the match muting everyone who wants to complain about cockpit glass or the newest color sale in game.

[Sandpit]

wwiiogre, on 26 January 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Mischief I track my matches so its not anecdotal

uhm yes it is. one player's stats out of the entire population is far from a good sample size...

[wanderer]

Quote

Actually, the solution is stop blaming premades for losses. That's step 1.
Step 2 would be use better teamwork and coordination.

Bull.

I have played in plenty of premades. We laughed, PUGs burned, and the only real challenge was when other premades showed up in the MM.

Then, due to a need for RL quiet (sick people in house), no VOIP chat. PUG time.

My W/L dropped from over 70% (cause I'd PUG when I was just sneaking a game in, otherwise it'd be closer to 85%) to 50%. About 4 out of 5 of those games in PUG Hell are 12-(4 or less) wipes, one way or another.

My KDR dropped from over 3 to .5.

I had one random invite to a premade anyway, recently.

Win-win-win-win-win till people got called off to their unit and I was back to PUG hell. The pattern resumed.

Spend some time in the mud, then tell me it's "skill" that's the real game-changer. The real "skill" is being on a team. Organized forces trump mobs, PUGs are mobs and will always BE mobs.

Armies use mobs for target practice. So does the premade unto the PUG.

Spend a few days in PUGhell and see what it does to your stats, the random insanity to your temperament. Then wonder why the PUGs beg for the premades to just get out of the queue and leave them alone, howling about getting stomped- wonder no more.

[Livebait]

Well, I don't know about PUG or premades being a problem. It's the fact that one team will out weigh the other. You know 6 atlases and stalker on one team and the opposing team has a Dragon as its heaviest mech. The match making is the problem. Battle value should be put in and ditch this ELO junk that never should have been part of match making.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 27 January 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Bull.

I have played in plenty of premades. We laughed, PUGs burned, and the only real challenge was when other premades showed up in the MM.

Then, due to a need for RL quiet (sick people in house), no VOIP chat. PUG time.

My W/L dropped from over 70% (cause I'd PUG when I was just sneaking a game in, otherwise it'd be closer to 85%) to 50%. About 4 out of 5 of those games in PUG Hell are 12-(4 or less) wipes, one way or another.

My KDR dropped from over 3 to .5.

I had one random invite to a premade anyway, recently.

Win-win-win-win-win till people got called off to their unit and I was back to PUG hell. The pattern resumed.

Spend some time in the mud, then tell me it's "skill" that's the real game-changer. The real "skill" is being on a team. Organized forces trump mobs, PUGs are mobs and will always BE mobs.

Armies use mobs for target practice. So does the premade unto the PUG.

Spend a few days in PUGhell and see what it does to your stats, the random insanity to your temperament. Then wonder why the PUGs beg for the premades to just get out of the queue and leave them alone, howling about getting stomped- wonder no more.

So you were running with a group of players that were really good together and then dropped into random nation! Welcome to Random group generation.

[Sandpit]

wanderer, on 27 January 2014 - 11:30 AM, said:

Bull.

I have played in plenty of premades. We laughed, PUGs burned, and the only real challenge was when other premades showed up in the MM.

Then, due to a need for RL quiet (sick people in house), no VOIP chat. PUG time.

My W/L dropped from over 70% (cause I'd PUG when I was just sneaking a game in, otherwise it'd be closer to 85%) to 50%. About 4 out of 5 of those games in PUG Hell are 12-(4 or less) wipes, one way or another.

My KDR dropped from over 3 to .5.

I had one random invite to a premade anyway, recently.

Win-win-win-win-win till people got called off to their unit and I was back to PUG hell. The pattern resumed.

Spend some time in the mud, then tell me it's "skill" that's the real game-changer. The real "skill" is being on a team. Organized forces trump mobs, PUGs are mobs and will always BE mobs.

Armies use mobs for target practice. So does the premade unto the PUG.

Spend a few days in PUGhell and see what it does to your stats, the random insanity to your temperament. Then wonder why the PUGs beg for the premades to just get out of the queue and leave them alone, howling about getting stomped- wonder no more.

I have, I have spent the majority of my time playing this game AS a pug. My experience was different. I maintained a positive KDR and about even on the W/L side of things.
Does that count as spending time in PUGhell? That's about a year's worth of time in nothing but PUGs

[Joseph Mallan]

I have 6 months as PUG ALT after Elo and a positive W/L & KDR to match you sir.

[wanderer]

Quote

So you were running with a group of players that were really good together and then dropped into random nation! Welcome to Random group generation.

Random House Liao drop groups -> PUG Hell, actually.

---

And gents, you're the cream of the PUG crop. And you'd be even better if you got out of PUGing. Joseph, what's your main's stats vs. your alt's? I'm assuming your premade stats take a big steaming dump on your PUG alt's by comparison. Go ahead, post em.

To everyone else:

If you only PUG, find a premade group.

If you only premade, go PUG instead.

Note the difference. You are the same player- the difference is having organized backup. Me?

My W/L goes from 1 in 2 wins to 4 wins out of 5 from PUG to premade. My KDR goes from killing one opponent every other match to 3 kills per round.

That magnification of your skill via team play is the reason PUGs and premades never, ever will properly mix and do not belong in the same queue.

Edited by wanderer, 27 January 2014 - 11:55 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

wanderer, on 27 January 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

Random House Liao drop groups -> PUG Hell, actually.

...
...
...
So up o 12 man teams?

Is PUG Hell close to constantly ringing doorbell hell?

[Nightcrept]

NextGame, on 27 January 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

So what you are saying is that online team based multiplayer shooters should not have some element of skill dependence and competitiveness?

I was reading an article today about some school where, during team based sporting events, they take players from winning sides at half time and move them to the losing team to give them a chance. Is something like that what you are after in order that the bads get to feel less bad, and everyone else feels like their efforts at actually trying to win are either wasted or hollow?

Winning is fun. If it wasn't part of the reason people play, there wouldn't be whining threads about losing streaks. So where is the problem in advising that players put more effort into actually improving their game and trying to win?

The problem is in your get better or suck it up attitude.

As You yourself say winning is fun. By using a proper MM and elo type system players can be matched by skill allowing more balanced games then just throwing them to the wolves and saying suck it up.

[MischiefSC]

Pugging about 4k games. WIn/loss 1.2 (which is only 55% win) and KDR of 1.6 average.

When I premade, it totally depends who I'm with. It's rarely too much better than that.

Now, back in the pre-Elo matchmaker days you'd drop in a 4man and have a win/loss of 3.0 or 4.0 and have a KDR of 4 or 5.

Elo and the matchmaker work on the average, even including the premades.

How they do that however is by balancing premade teams on both sides I suspect.

I'd love to know how they fit into the matchmaker. I've PM'ed Paul and asked for a bit of a Matchmaker update on the specifics.

[Nightcrept]

Sandpit, on 27 January 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

Sure thing sparky

Show me again where they did a pug only queue? I think your post here shows a lot more than you cared for it to though. It explains a lot to me. If that's what you think then you're not really looking for a s"solution" to anything. You're just looking to make it harder on people who want to group up because, for whatever reason, you don't like them. This is why peoples' ideas get dismissed.
The ulterior motives and bias shows through eventually. You basically just said 4mans want nothing more then to stomp pugs for easy target practice and stated it is a factual truth. This is why I shall now dismiss your ideas for what they are.

You are offering nothing, just stating the usual premades are evil and touched me. You have NO idea what other players are here for. You just get beat and jump on an easy bandwagon looking for a scapegoat. That's ok though. GL&GH to you sir. It sounds like you're going to need it

My attitude?

You're a notorious troll on these forums just like many of the rest of us and you're telling me you don't remember the separate game modes?

Pre-mades could drop with pre-mades only 4 and 12 mans if I recall. I will go back and look just to prove my point.

My attitude towards pre-mades is that they tend to be elitist but otherwise I could care less. So long as theres one on both sides I'm fine with them being in game.

A matter of fact is that I feel that something the game needs is for the groups need to have a more prominent place in the game and on the forums. I.e. my mechwarrior espn idea.

But you can go ahead and disregard my opinion if you wish but it makes you look foolish if you don't even go back to read about things that you say don't exist or didn't happen.

[Lubalin]

Wow this thread blew up. Got busy and couldn't check back until now.

I realize the title is hyperbolic. I do see very even, fun matches where almost everyone types GG at the end. Where I spectate to the end, sitting on the edge of my seat. But, it seems like I only see 1 of these for every 10 hours of gameplay. I want more of that!

For all the weapon / module / weight balancing issues, I think the biggest problem is player skill and coordination.

Coordination and skill trump imbalance every time.

So the biggest focus should be on matching players with similar skill/coordination.

Something is happening that puts higher skilled players or well-coordinated teams up against average players / uncoordinated teams. That makes the game less fun for the latter group, but probably more fun for the former.

A competitive game should give everyone a fair chance to win. Everyone should get to have fun.

The dev team has made intentional decisions that seem to favor some groups over others. I hope they will fix it.

I honestly don't care how it's fixed. I just want to get back to having more fun matches.

[wanderer]

Frankly, I'd love to just see the MM slot premades into every lance, and then and ONLY then add in solo players to fill any gaps. Show premades clearly when sides are being generated, whether 2, 3, or 4-man.

Leave the mass of solo players to play and PUG in PUG hell and the game would be a much more peaceful place.

[DaZur]

For all practical application folks need to get over "my Elo" mentality that there is some magical method to pair your individual Elo with an opposing counterpart... This is a "Team" game and your personal Elo is only brought to bear in terms of defining the average team Elo and the associated business of the MM trying to manifest a similar ranked team to pair against your team.

In the grand scheme of things, the MM doesn't care what your personal Elo is... It's making teams, not making sure you personally have a lovely go of it...

Chaos rules and there is no way to ultimately control the sack of cells between the keyboards and the chair. There are a plethora of environmentals that influence the outcome of a match... player skill, tonnage imbalance, teamwork, voIP..etc..etc. Yes, all that plays a part on stomps occurring... That said, the reality is once a team is down by roughly 1/3rd their force strength... it's almost impossible to rally.

This is true be you playing in PUGs or PMs... The typical result of combat loss grouping is unavoidable. Any attempt by with polar contingency is to refute this is disingenuous... Stomps happen because they are destine to happen.

No amount of game mechanic manipulation can change this. It's functional math... and can be repeated almost at will. Absolutely... there are outlier results. I've been party to both sides of the swing. That said, it statistically far more likely that a stomp will occur than not.

Plain and simple...

Edited by DaZur, 27 January 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Appogee]

Mystere, on 26 January 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

PGI can't and shouldn't fix people, period.

/imagines the horror of a person who had been ''fixed'' by PGI ...

[Ngamok]

Appogee, on 27 January 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

/imagines the horror of a person who had been ''fixed'' by PGI ...

Lobotomy probably.