343 replies to this topic

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 12 March 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

Apologies for the delay but 300: Rise of an Empire premiered in my country today.



The Clan Wolf Sourcebook Pg.21,



the novels Grave Covenant,

(I could just post the main part but instead I will post the entire conversation & underline the part I am referring to.)





as well as the novel, Bred for War (again the part you need to see will be underlined)




As well as Malicious Intent :




As the Ice Hellion Khan said, the Jade Falcon attempt to absorb the Wolves was bungled & misguided. Here is why:

A Trial of Refusal cannot be just turned into a Trial of Absorption. As you can see in the picture there is a process. ALL the Clans have to meet in the Grand Council Hall & a proposal is made. A vote is then taken & ONLY if it passes unanimously does it get ratified. After that the Clans bid & fight among themselves for the right to do the actual absorbing. Clan Wolf has the one thing all the other Clans desire, the Kerensky Bloodright. Do you mean to tell me all the other Clans just gave up on acquiring the most sought after Bloodright in Clan history?

The reason this was not done was because considering the state of Jade Falcons at that time, they knew if they tried to call for a legal Absorption right there & then, they themselves most likely would end up being the target, So what did they do? What do all weak Clans do to cover themselves? They turn to politics & trickery. They turn a Trial of Refsual into an Absorption then not having defeated all of the Wolf forces they decide to Abjure the remaining Wolves (Phelan's forces). Why? Well Vlad explains it in Malicious Intent






As I have shown you, no they did not.

P.S. This is all canon & cannot be disputed.

This is what people in canon said happened, not what canon says happened. And there is a subtle but defining difference in that.

I will not dispute that both sides of the scenario put forward their own versions. I can also quote you were Comstar and Clan Wolf say Clan Ghost Bear had a draw on Tukayyid but Clan Ghost Bear claim a narrow victory. Canon is filled with different views depending on what side you're on. There are Canon personalities that claim Sun Tzu is the defeater of the Clans on the basis he was the Star Lord and ultimate authority of the Star League during operation Bulldog.

It is still in canon the Grand Council did approve the absorbtion (and yes there are conflicting expressions of it's validity subsequently) but just because the wronged party says it ain't so, that don't make it so. Thats what happened on the day. I know people will argue crusader politics and I know subsequent actions throw some some things in a different light but it doesn't change that on the day, the absorbtion was approved by the Grand Council and hence, legal.

One of these passages implies that Clan Jade Falcon approved the abjuration too, which is simply not possible in Clan Law. Abjuration is something only the Grand Council can approve. The fact is that Phelans Wolves (as being the last rememants of Clan Wolf) were abjured ergo, the Grand Council approved it.

Notwithstanding that, Clan Wolf still lost the Trial to a stronger Clan, in the sense that they lost.

This is my whole point by the way, that long held cherished ideas are not supported in canon by the facts.

PS, was the movie good?

Edited by Craig Steele, 12 March 2014 - 05:38 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 07:39 AM, said:

Technically speaking Clan Wolf won the refusal war? Firstly my mind is boggled that there even is a technical definition for "winning" but seeing as they did actually lay down their weapons and surrender I am kinda thinking that between two combatants, one knew they were beaten and the other knew they were victorious.

Yes they did. First off the charge of treason was never formal. It was not even on the damn indictment handed to Ulric. Ulric took care of the previous two charges (the formal & legal ones mind you) & then Dalk Carns concocted the third charge from thin air. Vlad almost had a fit.

Quote

The ilKhan spun and stared at the Loremaster. "I believe, Dalk Cams, that this conclave can be brought to an end."

Watching Marialle and Vlad, Phelan thought they looked like two people twelve days into a fortnight's artillery barrage.
In presenting their case to the council, they'd obviously hoped to use the conclave as a bully pulpit to win converts to
their Wolf supremist position. Ulric had ambushed them, and they didn't like it. Neither did Dalk, but Phelan thought that
was less because he supported Vlad than because he didn't like losing control of the conclave.

As Dalk's head came up, Phelan realized he was wrong. Where he'd expected to see anger and embarrassment, he saw sinister confidence. Somehow, somewhere, while Ulric was ripping the supremists' case apart, Cams had found something to use against him.

"I am afraid, ilKhan, that I cannot call a close until we address the third charge in the indictment."

Natasha's eyes blazed. "Third charge?"

"You heard me, Khan Natasha. If you will, ilKhan, please explain how you could order that charge dismissed out of hand."

Ulric hesitated for a second and Dalk began to smile. Ulric took control by surprising Dalk, and now Dalk has turned the tables on him. Ulric exploded the other charges, so he will be expected to do that with this one as well. He cannot avoid dealing with it.

The ilKhan slowly shook his head. "There was no third charge in the indictment I was given."

"No?" Dalk's oily smile broadened. "Clerical error, then. I suppose a Trial of Refusal is in order with my clerk."

"And this charge is, Loremaster?"

"That you willfully entered into a conspiracy to destroy a Clan's genetic heritage."

Natasha gasped out loud and even Marialle and Vlad looked aghast.

But even putting aside that, let us look at the "Trial of Absorption" & the Trial of Refusal itself. Since Ulric was the initiator of the Refusal itself, killing him would end the Trial. However even with the prospect of fighting against high to medium odds & no guarantee of zellbrigen since a Trial of Refusal does not have to have it, there is the matter of honorable conduct. Let us see what happened with Ulric's death:

Quote

Ulric's voice boomed through his helmet's speakers. "Greetings, Vahn."

"And to you, Ulric. When I suggested this duel I had no idea you would bring seconds."

"You can consider them seconds if you wish. For me, they serve as witnesses."

The Jade Falcon Khan laughed. "My gun-camera video will be witness enough to your death."

"Possibly, but such things are often damaged when a 'Mech is destroyed." Ulric's humanoid Gargoyle opened its arms.
"Do you require some sort of formal declaration of intent, or shall we begin?"

"It has already begun, Ulric."

That remark struck Vlad as hopelessly bizarre, then he saw the muzzle of the small laser tucked beneath the
Gladiator's chin begin to vibrate back and forth like the tines of a tuning fork. He reached over and punched a button on
his command, changing his holographic display from starlight to ultraviolet. With that he saw a purplish blade of light
scything back and forth, touching all the Wolf 'Mechs in the circle save himself and Mech Warrior Andrew opposite him.

The small laser is configured for targeting. He's feeding telemetry to missile Stars. "Ulric, it's a trap!"

Vlad never knew if Ulric Kerensky heard him or not as salvo after salvo of long-range missiles arced up over the Ministry of Justice building and rained down upon the Wolves. The explosions came fast and thick, filling the circle with a nova-glare that banished night and burned shadows into the stone where they struck. Angry and boiling, the fire became hotter as air rushed in to feed it. A gout of flame shot into the sky like a fiery demon released from hell.

A supposed duel between two warriors in a Circle of Equals interfered with by outside fire? Let us look at another Trial of Refusal where two warriors faced off in a Circle of Equals many years before:







Vlad later used this to his advantage:





Had there been any Grand Council witnesses, Chistu's actions would have forfeited the Jade Falcons position. They would have been declared dezgra.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 12 March 2014 - 05:53 PM.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

This is what people in canon said happened, not what canon says happened. And there is a subtle but defining difference in that.

I will not dispute that both sides of the scenario put forward their own versions. I can also quote you were Comstar and Clan Wolf say Clan Ghost Bear had a draw on Tukayyid but Clan Ghost Bear claim a narrow victory. Canon is filled with different views depending on what side you're on. There are Canon personalities that claim Sun Tzu is the defeater of the Clans on the basis he was the Star Lord and ultimate authority of the Star League during operation Bulldog.

It is still in canon the Grand Council did approve the absorbtion (and yes there are conflicting expressions of it's validity subsequently) but just because the wronged party says it ain't so, that don't make it so. Thats what happened on the day. I know people will argue crusader politics and I know subsequent actions throw some some things in a different light but it doesn't change that on the day, the absorbtion was approved by the Grand Council and hence, legal.

One of these passages implies that Clan Jade Falcon approved the abjuration too, which is simply not possible in Clan Law. Abjuration is something only the Grand Council can approve. The fact is that Phelans Wolves (as being the last rememants of Clan Wolf) were abjured ergo, the Grand Council approved it.

Notwithstanding that, Clan Wolf still lost the Trial to a stronger Clan, in the sense that they lost.

This is my whole point by the way, that long held cherished ideas are not supported in canon by the facts.

PS, was the movie good?

No no, it does not says X person believes such & such. It is stated as a matter of fact. Show me in the canon where the Grand Council met & ratified the "Absorption" please.

Also they did not defeat all of the Wolf forces which would have been a requirement for an absorption which is why they tried the Abjuration trick.

It WAS good. Not as epic as it's predecessor, but still a damn solid movie. I saw it twice.

[Craig Steele]

Jaroth Corbett, on 12 March 2014 - 05:39 PM, said:

Yes they did. First off the charge of treason was never formal. It was not even on the damn indictment handed to Ulric. Ulric took care of the previous two charges (the formal & legal ones mind you) & then Dalk Carns concocted the third charge from thin air. Vlad almost had a fit (1).



Had there been any Grand Council witnesses, Chistu's actions would have forfeited the Jade Falcons position. They would have been declared dezgra. (2)

(1) Still an internal Clan Wolf matter, still not something for the Grand Council. Still Ulric submitted to to the Grand Council seeking a war with Clan Jade Falcon, a war they lost.

(2) I don't (or more accurately I won't, because I don't support them) defend Christu's action but this thread has never been about Clan Jade Falcon. It is about Clan Wolf. Regardless of what the JF Khan did though, it doesn't change that the Absorbtion and Abjuration were ratified.

Your own quotes of the Khans discussion you posted highlights that while it was 'bungled' it was not unauthorised. The Lore master agrees it was unorthodox (he's a JF by the way) but no one in that room disputes the authority of the Absorbtion. Indeed, Vlad acknowledges it as giving his new Clan distance from the actions of Phelan

Jaroth Corbett, on 12 March 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

No no, it does not says X person believes such & such. It is stated as a matter of fact. Show me in the canon where the Grand Council met & ratified the "Absorption" please (3).

Also they did not defeat all of the Wolf forces (4) which would have been a requirement for an absorption which is why they tried the Abjuration trick.

It WAS good. Not as epic as it's predecessor, but still a damn solid movie. I saw it twice.

(3) It is canon personalities expressing their view. If you want to debate from the same source see above. The Khans acknowledge the absorbtion protected Vlads Wolves from their tainted history. That's your source, it says what I am saying.

(4) In Clan culture, fleeing from the Circle of Equals is a definition of defeat. The Circle of Equals was the Invasion Corridor, Phelan fled (under orders from Ulric / Natasha but he still chose to exercise no initiative and rejoin the fight). Ergo, from the minute they left the Circle Phelans Wolves were already defeated. Only Jade Falcons desire for honour sent them to Morges, they didn't need to go.

The Novels relate Phelan regretting what he did and expressing that 'had he known" he would have done something different. I also wished I picked different numbers on my lottery ticket after the results came out last night.

There was no Abjuration trick, Abjuration is a decree of the Grand Council. They found that Clan Wolf leadership was unfit to rule and banished the remaining Wolves (Phelans) from Clans Space.

Clan Wolf (In Exile) Loremaster Daphne Vickers states in her report on the Warden Wolves (pg 153 Warden Clans Field Manual) "Traitors or patriots, Bandit Clan or lost brethen. However we judge the splinter Wolf Clan, exiled to the Inner Sphere first by choice and later by Abjuration, we cannot deny that they are of the Clans....."

If their own Loremaster acknowledges they have been abjured from Clan space (for being traitors to the Clan culture) in their official report (approved by Phelan for release one would imagine) isn't that clear that Clan Wolf (In Exile) have accepted the fact?

[Tesunie]

Craig. Last count, you haven't received a single like in 5 pages (unless something changed). People are now fighting you with non-sarna, pure canon sources.

To be honest, since I started questioning you and your stand point (back on the bottom of page 3, for a reminder), and I started to counter your points with Sarna, you haven't gotten any likes.

I haven't had to say a word for at least a page of posts, and other people with more extensive canon and lore sources have been countering you now.

And you still refute them with a line such as "Well, that was what people said/thought in canon, but that wasn't canon". Really? Need I say more...?

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 12 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

Craig. Last count, you haven't received a single like in 5 pages (unless something changed). People are now fighting you with non-sarna, pure canon sources.

To be honest, since I started questioning you and your stand point (back on the bottom of page 3, for a reminder), and I started to counter your points with Sarna, you haven't gotten any likes.

I haven't had to say a word for at least a page of posts, and other people with more extensive canon and lore sources have been countering you now.

And you still refute them with a line such as "Well, that was what people said/thought in canon, but that wasn't canon". Really? Need I say more...?

Well Tesunie, you probably should say less.

As discussed before, I'm not here to win a popularity contest. I am challenging people of their long held beliefs with fact.

You chipped again with a Sarna source that has very little relation to the canon which I quickly shot to pieces and other people have subsequently posted copies of novel excerpts painting a different picture to the Sarna one you relied upon and argued for.

So yes, you probably should say less until you brush up your knowledge of canon and can make a contribution that has a basis.

If that's the question you're asking, I'm just saying.

Just give another example. You yourself highlighted that Twycross was a defeat for Clan Wolf, they retreated and Natahsa died. But Vlad says in the novel "we won every battle and every world". So again I point that if a canon personality says its so, that don't make it so in canon.

Edited by Craig Steele, 12 March 2014 - 06:53 PM.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 03:51 AM, said:

It doesn't and I have never made an allegation they didn't. I also never said it was Fake, it was Judged a victory (and for that matter, so was every other Clans result)

Fact - Clan Wolf was the only Clan to take both objectives
Fact - Clan Wolf was still fighting Comstar forces around the objectives, the battle did not end because they took the objectives. The battle was by all accounts continuing as a tense and hard fought battle.

If you are implying the battle was over once Clan Wolf seized both objectives my question would be, why were they still fighting? This is arguably the only real lever here so if you have something in canon I'd love to hear it. It will refute one of the several points I have that demonstrate Clan Wolf's weakness. One won't change my mind, but it will certainly tick a box.

Better yet, YOU show ME where it says in canon that the Clans had to do more than to take the two target Cities to win. Show ME where it says that Clan Wolf was still fighting with the Comgards after taking their second target.

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 12 March 2014 - 07:23 PM, said:

Better yet, YOU show ME where it says in canon that the Clans had to do more than to take the two target Cities to win. Show ME where it says that Clan Wolf was still fighting with the Comgards after taking their second target.

I did, scroll up

[Tesunie]

Funny. What I've been reading here and from Sarna seems to match fairly closely...

You, on the other hand, have reused the same old excuse of "It's not canon" worded slightly differently to counteract people who are actually posting from the novels. Then, you also conveniently seem to neglect to see your own resource books back cover for the wolves.

"This sourcebook gives a complete history and cultural description of Clan Wolf, one of the most prominent Clans and the one that bears the name of Kerensky himself."

Let me help farther.
https://www.google.c...nent+definition
http://dictionary.re...rowse/prominent
Key words describing Prominent: Leading. Important.
Some Synonyms:
Celebrated. Famous. Famed. Distinguished.

The back of your own source book says the Wolves are prominent, which means distinguished. In a military sense, Distinguished normally relates to skilled, strong, powerful.

Beyond that, just read the novel quotes posted above. It's worded straight from lore, and is worded better than anything I could type.

For the record, we aren't trying to say your opinion is wrong, whatever that may be about the wolves. What we are saying is, your view on canon seems skewed. You seem to ignore key facts, and try to brush them aside when people present them to you. Wolf is not weak. You can say they lost some major trials, but to call them weak is incorrect.


I'll just stick to the lore that the other people have posted straight from the books. It seems more accurate than your "source books" lore from what I understand of it. (And you still have failed to prove anything about clan wolf getting a free win from Tukayyid... A point you clearly pasted up here often.)


(I do want to say, you do present a lot of canon facts, but then you also ignore a lot of canon facts to. So, you can not say you are simply posting up unbiased canon facts.)

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 12 March 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

Funny. What I've been reading here and from Sarna seems to match fairly closely...

You, on the other hand, have reused the same old excuse of "It's not canon" worded slightly differently to counteract people who are actually posting from the novels. Then, you also conveniently seem to neglect to see your own resource books back cover for the wolves.

"This sourcebook gives a complete history and cultural description of Clan Wolf, one of the most prominent Clans and the one that bears the name of Kerensky himself."

Let me help farther.
https://www.google.c...nent+definition
http://dictionary.re...rowse/prominent
Key words describing Prominent: Leading. Important.
Some Synonyms:
Celebrated. Famous. Famed. Distinguished.

The back of your own source book says the Wolves are prominent, which means distinguished. In a military sense, Distinguished normally relates to skilled, strong, powerful.

Beyond that, just read the novel quotes posted above. It's worded straight from lore, and is worded better than anything I could type.

For the record, we aren't trying to say your opinion is wrong, whatever that may be about the wolves. What we are saying is, your view on canon seems skewed. You seem to ignore key facts, and try to brush them aside when people present them to you. Wolf is not weak. You can say they lost some major trials, but to call them weak is incorrect.


I'll just stick to the lore that the other people have posted straight from the books. It seems more accurate than your "source books" lore from what I understand of it. (And you still have failed to prove anything about clan wolf getting a free win from Tukayyid... A point you clearly pasted up here often.)


(I do want to say, you do present a lot of canon facts, but then you also ignore a lot of canon facts to. So, you can not say you are simply posting up unbiased canon facts.)

OK, NP.

You keep making acqusations about me personally and fail to offer anything based on Canon to the argument but I'm skewed from what canon is.

You read what you want into my posts and argue points that are irrelevant to refuting what I have put forward.

I still think that saying 'You're a nasty pasty and I don't believe you' is a weak argument to counter the canon I have submitted.

I never claimed that Clan Wolf was the weakest cripple of a Clan, I did present that it was weak compared to other Clans. I also supported why I thought so with stuff that actually happened in canon, and I avoided any statements by canon personalities on either side of the argument.

You got no counter to that, no problem.

On your last post you represented that Ulric was "assassinated" by a surprise attack. You quoted a Sarna source which demonstrated that there was no trial, no batchall and the battle took place within Circle of Equals between declared opponents. Looking at that dispassionatly, Ulric could not have been assassinated, he was just incompetent for putting himself in a position where he could be engaged by superior numbers in a declared combat zone.

Subsequently you want to jump on the other Canon sources to beef up your argument. Nice try, but not what you said originally.

I'll play this game though and tell you want I think about that particular engagement.

It was a grudge match. Two sides hated each other and they wanted to kill each other. There was no new trial, no new batchall, no new circle. Christu said you and me big boy, I'm gunna hurt you bad and Ulric said you just wait right there, I'm on my way.

Ulric got there with his escort and Christu stood there alone and they spewed a bit of venom at each other before Chritu took out Ulric with indirect fire. (we could argue that seeing as Ulric had his star it's completly relevant for Christu to have his star also but lets not)

I'm going to call this as I see it, it was dishonourable. It was not the Jade Falcon style and Christu should be ashamed of himself for bringing in extra forces to a duel he called for. He was within his rights of the Trial as declared, but it was dishonourable.

Now let me tell you about another battle.

On a planet called Morges Phelan led his Warden Wolves faced against Clan Jade Falcons Vau galaxy (from memory, Peregine maybe?). They hated each other, they wanted to kill each other. There was no batchall, no trial, no Circle of equals. It was a grudge match. The JF commander said I'm gunna rip out your heart and Phelan said you want a piece of me you come get some. The Falcons got the engagement and found Phelans Wolves had been reinforced with 200 battlemechs of the Kell Hounds (both regiments), they lost.

Was Phelan within his rights, well he was kinda fighting for his survivial so hard to argue. Was it a 'fair fight' between declared opponents, no chance.

So we have two battles here, identical in their format (albeit the size of the combatants are different) but I don't know of a single Wolf fan boy that will admit that Phelans actions on Morges were no different to Christu's actions on Woton.

So please, lets not compare Christu to anyone and argue that is proof of Clan Wolfs superiority, they are quite capable of stooping just as low. It doesn't make either side better.

[Uncle Totty]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 07:27 PM, said:

I did, scroll up

No, you did not. I even went back a few pages and I still can not find where you quoted canon saying:

"To win, each Clan must capture two objectives as well as defeat all Comgards on the battlefield."

...or:

"After securing their second target, Clan Wolf still continues to fight Comstar forces around their objectives."

Edited by Nathan K, 12 March 2014 - 08:11 PM.

[Tesunie]

Nathan K, on 12 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

No, you did not. I even went back a few pages and I still can not find where you quoted canon saying:

"To win, each Clan must capture two objectives as well as defeat all Comgards on the battlefield."

...or:

"After securing their second target, Clan Wolf still continues to fight Comstar forces around their objectives."

I haven't seen that key piece of information either... but I shall admit that I stopped actually reading his posts a while back, as he has been using the same rebuffs to try and discredit people. Me. Fine. I don't use one of his special "canon" sources when dealing with an internet conversation. Other people quoting from their source books and novels...

As I said before...

Tesunie, on 12 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

And you still refute them with a line such as "Well, that was what people said/thought in canon, but that wasn't canon". Really? Need I say more...?

Apparently, I did need to say more.

And I'm not even going to try and prove anything more to him. I have. Other people have. I used Sarna. They used Source Books and Novel Quotes. I think I'll leave it to people who have better resources to argue this point, as they have been doing a much better job than I was. (Because "Sarna is so close, but it isn't canon approved". )

[Craig Steele]

Nathan K, on 12 March 2014 - 08:08 PM, said:

No, you did not. I even went back a few pages and I still can not find where you quoted canon saying:

"To win, each Clan must capture two objectives as well as defeat all Comgards on the battlefield."

...or:

"After securing their second target, Clan Wolf still continues to fight Comstar forces around their objectives."

Yes, I did, its very clear with page numbers and everything.

You don't want to read the canon then you want me to make your argument for you?

If you have a point based on canon, make it. I'm happy to debate.

But I have already put up the canon references that quite clearly show the Wolf Warriors were still fighting, that Comstar had gathered reinforcements but before they could join the battle that the campaign was declared, in Comstar's favour. All results from Tukayyid were "judged".

@Tesunie, just because I argue points of canon, that doesn't mean I am ignoring it. I have never ignored anything canon based that people have submitted but I will agrue its merits to the point being discussed, or I will concede the point. It's called debating.

[Tesunie]

Okay.

The two posts made by Jaroth Corbett at the very top of this page. You denied it as canon as:

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

This is what people in canon said happened, not what canon says happened. And there is a subtle but defining difference in that.

Basically, as I summarized for you:

Tesunie, on 12 March 2014 - 06:38 PM, said:

"Well, that was what people said/thought in canon, but that wasn't canon".

So, anything you don't like, you seem to shout "It's not canon". That's not debating. That's refusing to see the evidence before you. You are like someone who is seeing a giant explosion, and saying "That's not an explosion, it's an exothermic reaction." Guess what an exothermic reaction curtails mostly of... (Hint: It's explosive, or at least a heat producing chemical reaction.)

[Craig Steele]

Tell you what, on the off chance that you are not a Troll and genuinly want to debate the point I will repeat myself.

This is the description of the battle in total after the Wolves had taken the objectives from the Clan Wolf Source book, pg 51.

"Clan Wolf gradually broke off individual battles to regroup for the final engagement in the mountains. The fighting began amid a raging Thunderstorm. Clan Wolf moved forward slowly, feinting and thrusting to maintain their advantage. The links to their supply bases held, and Comstars few attempts to disrupt these lines were quickly smashed. Even with this advantage, what little ground was taken was won at a heavy price, Khan Garth Radick was slain commanding Beta Galaxy.

Clan Wolf inflicted heavy enough damage on the Comstar forces that the 13th Army was committed to the mountains. Before the new Comstar force could join the engagement, however, the battle for Tukayyid ended."

So these passages relate a story where Clan Wolf warriors were fighting as hard as ever after taking Brzo and protecting their lines of supply. They were taking heavy knocks but giving pretty good too. As with virtually every other battle on Tukayyid, Comstar assembled a force for a counter attack but that force did not join the battle being raged because the campaign was "ended"

Key word is join, ie, the battle was still going at the time that Ulric (and Focht) agreed to terminate the campaign.

@ Tesunie, so the fact that I can quote a canon source that says one thing happen, and the fact some some else can quote a canon source where a personality says it didn't happen, you don't see the difference there?

To use your example more accurately, If someone sees an explosion and someone else says "nope, no explosion there". Does the big hole in the ground tell you it did or didn't happen?

Edited by Craig Steele, 12 March 2014 - 08:51 PM.

[Tesunie]

Okay... did they by some chance have an agreed upon time limit for this trial? Capture your targets before x date? Could Comstar (who also agreed with Wolf, and the clans agreed with wolf) have wanted to prevent farther losses for an already won trial (Comstar already won). Not to mention, every time Comstar did press, they got repelled... By your own quote there (if it is accurate, which I still am presuming it is still, strangely enough).

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

Key word is join, ie, the battle was still going at the time that Ulric (and Focht) agreed to terminate the campaign.

And you JUST proved our point for us. Comstar AND Ulric both agreed to end the trial. Together. Ulric didn't call the trial. Neither did Focht. THEY called off the trial together, ending it. Can you not see this? This means that Wolf was awarded a victory at the end of the trial. They also were the only clan force to actually manage to take their two objectives...

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 08:33 PM, said:

@ Tesunie, so the fact that I can quote a canon source that says one thing happen, and the fact some some else can quote a canon source where a personality says it didn't happen, you don't see the difference there?

To use your example more accurately, If someone sees an explosion and someone else says "nope, no explosion there". Does the big hole in the ground tell you it did or didn't happen?

Problem is, the oh so great Grand Council agreed with Vlad, which means they passed it in the above statements. Also, it appears as though Vlad did not see Ulric as a traitor, and neither did it appear that most of the other clans did. As, if they really did, Clan Wolf would have been on the "to be annihilated" list, just like Clan Wolverine.

Question for your example: Does that mean that when someone says it's canon, and quote it from several novels and source books, that it isn't canon? Cause, they did quote it, and you said it wasn't canon...

And we haven't been saying your information isn't cannon either, unlike what you have been doing to us. However, you only seem to want to tell the parts of the canon that you want, and not give the whole story. Hence, I call it a skewed view of canon. You tell just enough to be believed, but not enough to say what is really going on. Wanna know what I call it? A half truth.

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 12 March 2014 - 08:58 PM, said:

Okay... did they by some chance have an agreed upon time limit for this trial? Capture your targets before x date? Could Comstar (who also agreed with Wolf, and the clans agreed with wolf) have wanted to prevent farther losses for an already won trial (Comstar already won) (1). Not to mention, every time Comstar did press, they got repelled... By your own quote there (if it is accurate, which I still am presuming it is still, strangely enough).



And you JUST proved our point for us. Comstar AND Ulric both agreed to end the trial. Together. Ulric didn't call the trial. Neither did Focht. THEY called off the trial together, ending it. Can you not see this? This means that Wolf was awarded a victory at the end of the trial.(2) They also were the only clan force to actually manage to take their two objectives...




Problem is, the oh so great Grand Council agreed with Vlad, which means they passed it in the above statements. Also, it appears as though Vlad did not see Ulric as a traitor, and neither did it appear that most of the other clans did. (3) As, if they really did, Clan Wolf would have been on the "to be annihilated" (4) list, just like Clan Wolverine.

Question for your example:(5) Does that mean that when someone says it's canon, and quote it from several novels and source books, that it isn't canon? Cause, they did quote it, and you said it wasn't canon...

And we haven't been saying your information isn't cannon either, unlike what you have been doing to us. However, you only seem to want to tell the parts of the canon that you want, (6) and not give the whole story. Hence, I call it a skewed view of canon. You tell just enough to be believed, but not enough to say what is really going on. Wanna know what I call it? A half truth.

(1) So if you want to make an argument based on Canon, go for. I only know what the canon says but those are plausible scenarios. I don't see it in canon, and if its just a fantasy scenario then we can disregard it from a canon assessment, but you make your point. Go for it. Until then, What canon says is that Clan Wolf warriors were denied a firm and final outcome from their efforts on the field one way or the other.

(2) Something that I never suggested otherwise. Can you not see THATS NOT THE POINT. The point is and remains that some people point to the fact that Clan Wolf was the only Clan that was AWARDED a victory at Tukayyid as proof of Clan Wolf's military superiority. They say they were the only Clan seizing both objectives without acknowledging the objectives were the easiest ones to take. What Canon says is that they were awarded the victory, BUT THE BATTLE WAS NOT FINISHED. What canon says is that it was the ONLY BATTLE NOT FINISHED. Therefore, I say that arguing the military superioirty on the basis of a battle Clan Wolf did not actually finish IS NOT PROOF of Clan Wolf's superiority.

(3) After the event, many people had different views. ON THE DAY the leaders of Clan Wolf where unfit to rule (or dead) and hence their absorbtion was conducted in the Clan manner. Some people think Widowmaker got a bum run (lady by the name of Natasha Kerensky) but it doesn't change the outcome of that trial.

(4) They were Abjured, which is the same thing in many ways.

(5) No, you still reading what you want to read. If a Canon Sourcebook says the sky is Blue, I think the Sky is Blue. If a Canon Novel contains a guy saying the sky is green, I think the sky is still Blue, and he's got something wonky going on with his eyes.. If the Novel says the guy is looking at a Green Sky, I would call that a conflict in canon and something to debate (ie, why is it Green there and Blue there, time of year, funny clouds, etc etc).

Novels are stories and obviously different characters in those stories are going to have conflict going, its the BT world. My point (which is far from ignoring anyone) is that just because someone says its true, that don't make it true.

(6) Seriously, I make a statement of view and back it up with canon and I'm a douchebag because I don't put up every other single canon reference? Did you think about that. If you don't agree with my Canon, I have invited time and time for you (or anyone) to offer something up. No one has on the key points. If you don't have canon to support your view it means one of two things. Either there isn't any and your view is not based on Canon or there is some but it's not available to you or I think it's not supportive of the point. It's not really my job to argue against myself is it?

All of this is kind of more of your "attack the poster cause I have nothing to dispute him" and I get that making me look silly is for many people a way to counter an argument. They cannot prove their point, but if the other guy is silly then they must be right.

I think Clan Wolf between 3048 and 3058 is weak (not the weakest as some have suggested) and not the military 'top dog' that many people claim it be in Canon. I make this claim not on what canon personalities say or do not say, I make it on the canon events that are recorded.

Clan Wolf Lost major interclan trials between 3048 and 3058, dare I say they lost all major interclan trials they partook in. I gave examples (Refusal of Invasion, Refusal War) If you think they didn't, show me the major interclan trials they won.

Clan Wolf did not earn its place in the Invasion corridor. All other Clans had to bid and trial for a spot but Clan Wolf was appointed one as the holders of the Kerensky legacy. Got a canon source that disputes this, happy to review it.

Clan Wolf's Invasion corridor was opposing the weakest of the IS armies the Clans would face during the Invasion, evidenced by virtue of the number of major (regiment plus) defenders they engaged (they simply did not fight as many large battles as other Clans). Got a Canon source that refutes that, happy to hear it.

Clan Wolf did not progress significantly quicker during the primary stages of the Invasion even against the weakest IS opposition. Refer my table of planets and attacks from Canon sources. Got a canon source that refutes that, lets hear it. (and please, telling me they took more planets after Ulric set 4 clans against each other and gave Clan Wolf a free run is not going to be a winning argument here)

Clan Wolf suffered from poor leadership, specifically a Khan that was set upon his personal goals and using / manipulating Clan Wolf to things they would not normally undertake. Also, this same Khan would go on as Il Khan to prove to a traitor to the Clans and sabotage their Invasion of the Inner Sphere. Got some canon to dispute this (and I'll concede some people have presented some good stuff on this subject so far). bring your canon on.

Clan Wolf was absorbed and the warriors who represented the 'best' Warden Wolf had to offer fled a Circle of Equals and were found unfit to be part of a Clan society and abjured. Got some canon that refutes that, happy to reconsider.

No where in these views do I make a claim that any other specific clan is superior, nor do I say that Clan wolf is 17 out of 17. What I do say is that Clan Wolf is weak, not as strong as others.

What I do say for the OP's benefit is that if you want to join a Clan that loses a lot to other Clans, struggles to keep up the pace against 5th grade oppostiion, will never promote you on your merit unless you suck up to the boss and he might throw you into a battle you don't want to fight because he doesn't want to defend himself, then Clan Wolf is for you. They also have Timberwolves and a snazzy emblem and in 3058 they get a real leader who is trying real hard to make something happen.

Edited by Craig Steele, 12 March 2014 - 09:55 PM.

[Tesunie]

Okay. Can't even admit that you posted evidence that stuffed your own canon view point?

Also, the Abjure was them being Clan Falcon, and being abjured from Clan Falcon, after/as the absorption story came out. The absorption was deemed by the grand council to be false. This also means that Falcon abjured no one, as the people they abjured was not actually part of their clan. Go back up, and read those novel quotes. Vlad's Wolves did not recognize that Abjured result, so if it was a trial of Absorption, it was not complete till the remaining Wolves could be beaten. Thus, also, another reason why Wolf was not absorbed.

Read the "canon" information the other people posted. They are using sources I do not have available to myself. I'd have to use Sarna to prove any points at the moment, as I'm not about to go searching through my Novels when, you yourself, have proven my very point for me.

PS: Clan Wolf is considered to probably be as strong as Jade Falcon. Seen as they were considered to be the champions of their cause (and thus strong enough in military and political strength to be champions in clan society), I'd have to say those two clans were in the top echelon of the clans as a whole. I'd say they are one of the top 4 clans, if not the top two.

PS: Also, Vlad seemed to have great respect for Ulric... at least that is the vibe I get from the quoted passages above. I'd much rather read the whole book to really find out, but I do not own those mentioned books. Too bad they are out of print. Otherwise, I'd be spending my Warhammer 40k fund on Battletech books!

[Craig Steele]

Tesunie, on 12 March 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

Okay. Can't even admit that you posted evidence that stuffed your own canon view point? (1)

Also, the Abjure was them being Clan Falcon, and being abjured from Clan Falcon, after/as the absorption story came out. The absorption was deemed by the grand council to be false. This also means that Falcon abjured no one, as the people they abjured was not actually part of their clan. Go back up, and read those novel quotes. Vlad's Wolves did not recognize that Abjured result, so if it was a trial of Absorption, it was not complete till the remaining Wolves could be beaten. Thus, also, another reason why Wolf was not absorbed. (2)

Read the "canon" information the other people posted. They are using sources I do not have available to myself (3). I'd have to use Sarna to prove any points at the moment, as I'm not about to go searching through my Novels when, you yourself, have proven my very point for me.

PS: Clan Wolf is considered to probably be as strong as Jade Falcon. (4) Seen as they were considered to be the champions of their cause (and thus strong enough in military and political strength to be champions in clan society), I'd have to say those two clans were in the top echelon of the clans as a whole. I'd say they are one of the top 4 clans, if not the top two.

PS: Also, Vlad seemed to have great respect for Ulric... at least that is the vibe I get from the quoted passages above. I'd much rather read the whole book to really find out, but I do not own those mentioned books. Too bad they are out of print. Otherwise, I'd be spending my Warhammer 40k fund on Battletech books!

(1) Becasue it didn't. You're referring to Comstar being rebuffed right? Well they were. The passage still goes on to describe heavy fighting and the battle still raging. It was going so strong that reinforcements were sent to join (not re initiate or another fancy word, to JOIN). The passage does not refute what I submit, try again.

(2) What I suggest you do is get yourself a canon resource and familiarise yourself with the difference between abjured and absorbed. Tell you what, I'll be helpful with some hints like you were on the explosion thing.

Abjuration is when a Clan (or subject, it can be done to an indivdual) is ejected from Clan society, stripped of rank and all priveledges. If your saying Clan Jade falcon was abjured (as your sentence seems to suggest) you are miles away.

And on this point, just cause he say it ain't true, don't make it not true. The Khans also make reference that had it not been for the absorbtion, the Crusdaer Wolves would have been abjured with the rest. So which do you want it to be, were they absorbed and saved from abjuration, or were they abjured and have no place in Clan society (hint, Canon says the former cause they are still in canon)

(3) Then make your statements accordingly.

(4) But you (seemingly) have no basis for this claim bar your non canon world that you prefer. Nothing wrong with that and hey, you might even be right. But if you're going to represent that as the canon world, then people should be able to ask you to support why you think that is so with canon examples.

I on the other hand can show multiple examples where Clan Wolf was measurably weaker than other Clans with canon sources.

[Jaroth Corbett]

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

(1) Still an internal Clan Wolf matter, still not something for the Grand Council. Still Ulric submitted to to the Grand Council seeking a war with Clan Jade Falcon, a war they lost.

Initially yes. But as I said the third charge was bullshit. This was a case carefully prepared by the Crusader element of the Wolves to get Ulric removed as ilKhan but there were only two charges in the indictment. After Ulric dealt with the two, Marielle & Vlad began wrapping up. When Dalk Carns concocted this bullshit charge, because of its serious nature, Ulric could not deal with it as it was. It was he who turned it over to the Grand Council, a right the ilKhan has, in order to give himself & the Wolves time. If the Crusaders had stuck to the formal charges, the Refusal War would never have happened.

Quote

"And it wold be mine to see him slain." Ulric pointed at the podium. "Loremaster, this final charge is the most grave known to the Clans. Were I to refute it here, it would only be taken up again by the Grand Council. That being the case, I direct that you refer the charge directly to the Grand Council."

Bred for War

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

(2) I don't (or more accurately I won't, because I don't support them) defend Christu's action but this thread has never been about Clan Jade Falcon. It is about Clan Wolf. Regardless of what the JF Khan did though, it doesn't change that the Absorbtion and Abjuration were ratified.

The Grand Council never met, there was no proposal, there was no vote & no bidding for who would have the right to do the absorbing. I have shown you proof. I quoted from Grave Covenant to show how an Absorption is done. Show me one piece of canon that shows where the Grand Council met & ratified the "Absorption"? The reason why Taney says misguided & bungled is because by the time a Grand Council is convened, the matter was already dealt with. What he means by bungled is had the Jade Falcons done it legally & correctly they might have had a chance of being granted the right. Remember the Grand Council determines which Clan would best benefit from absorbing the proposed Clan. Now as I said I believe Chistu & Crichell felt that doing it legally would call their own Clan's weakness into question & they themselves might be the ones proposed to be absorbed, however the fact remains I believe what Taney means, is that since Ulric (as far as they are concerned) should have taken the judgement, instead of of turning it into a war with the Jade Falcons & the Jade Falcons won the right to represent the Grand Council in the matter, they more than likely might have been approved with minimal to no opposition.

What is the difference between a bank robber shooting a policeman & a policeman shooting a bank robber? At the end of the day, one person shot another person, however the policeman's action is legal, it is just, it is sanctioned. I am not saying it did not happen, I have never denied it. I am saying it was illegal & unClanlike. The stipulations for an Absorption are clear & the Jade Falcons did not follow them.

Vlad explains it perfectly. Chistu ambushed & murdered Ulric, anyone seeing what happened would have set the Jade Falcons back. He calls for a spontaneous absorption, which he knows he did not accomplish because all the Wolves were not killed or captured, then to prevent Phelan from returning to challenge the claim, he initiated the Ritual of Abjuration knowing that only a Wolf could challenge him & being abjured, Phelan & his forces are no longer considered Wolf or even Clan for that matter & since the Wolves that were not dead are now Jade Falcons, there was nobody to go against him.

The facts are there in plain black & white. Both Bred for War & Malicious Intent state (not from a character's perspective but one of fact for the reader to get) that the Grand Council did NOT sanction, ratify, condone & whatever other synonyms you want to use, the "Absorption".

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

(3) It is canon personalities expressing their view. If you want to debate from the same source see above. The Khans acknowledge the absorbtion protected Vlads Wolves from their tainted history. That's your source, it says what I am saying.

No it is not. It is stated as a matter of fact. No it does not it, it says what I am saying. That matter as far as the Clans are concerned is considered closed. In fact everything that happened with the "Absorption" was actually referred to by the Ice Hellion Clan as ancient history.

Quote

Taney frowned. "We are not discussing the Wolves' past victories, Khan Ward. You yourself severed your Clan's history from those Wolves, in any event. That is all ancient history— we are interested in current events and their ramifications."

The Jade Falcons ****** everything up. They had a Khan killed by a warrior with no Bloodname & the other Khan who was elected ilKhan got killed in the Grand Council Hall in front of the other Khans by that same warrior. Again no other Clan was just going to sit by & let the Jade Falcons lay claim to the Kerensky Bloodright by stealing it in an unsanctioned Absorption, but because of the events that transpired, they wrote off the whole thing.

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

(4) In Clan culture, fleeing from the Circle of Equals is a definition of defeat. The Circle of Equals was the Invasion Corridor, Phelan fled (under orders from Ulric / Natasha but he still chose to exercise no initiative and rejoin the fight). Ergo, from the minute they left the Circle Phelans Wolves were already defeated. Only Jade Falcons desire for honour sent them to Morges, they didn't need to go.

THANK YOU FOR MAKING MY POINT FOR ME. Were it just a Trial of Refusal they would not, but the Jade Falcons said it was a Trial of Absorption so yes they did. The Wolves were not defeated. Chistu & Crichell shit themselves because they knew Phelan could swing back & challenge it which is why they issued the Abjuration.

Craig Steele, on 12 March 2014 - 06:19 PM, said:

There was no Abjuration trick, Abjuration is a decree of the Grand Council. They found that Clan Wolf leadership was unfit to rule and banished the remaining Wolves (Phelans) from Clans Space.

I think you got confused. A Clan Council can call for Abjuration not just the Grand Council. The Falcons claim they absorbed the Wolves, by that he means everyone, Phelan included. They then say because of their actions, Phelan & his group are Abjured. They are not Falcon, Wolf or even Clan. The Grand Council had nothing to do with it initially. AFTERWARDS, when they actually met on Strana Mechty they would have agreed to it because Phelan was working with the Kell Hounds & working with mercenaries well you know the drill.

Edited by Jaroth Corbett, 13 March 2014 - 06:05 AM.