Jaroth Corbett, on 14 March 2014 - 08:06 PM, said:
Sorry but I have to refute a lot of your points.
That is incorrect based on the timeframe you are using. During the invasion they captured more worlds & at a faster pace than any other Clan (1). The Wolf Sourcebook confirms this.
True but that was an uphill battle from the start seeing as they were the only Clan to disapprove of the invasion. Ulric himself killed both of the Ghost Bear Khans (Nornian Tseng & Ursula Jorgensson) during that Trial. Invading Clans Pg.17
It also says they knew they would lose. (2) You have to understand that a Trial of Refusal suspends all normal fighting practices. Zellbrigen is not used. The Jade Phoenix Trilogy - Book 2 - Bloodname explains this best. The Wolves faced four sets of Elite Clan forces that could team up on them & as stated in the Wolf sourcebook, sheer numbers prevailed.
But as I mentioned before, Phelan never surrendered (3) therefore all the Wolf forces were not defeated. Ulric was ambushed & murdered & the Falcons broke the rules with their Absoption/Abjuration trickery. As far as the Wolves that remained surrendering, they did so because they were told Ulric was killed by Chistu in an honorable duel, suggesting Chistu was more skilled & bested Ulric. Had they known Ulric was ambushed & the only thing Chistu did in that fight was paint the mechs for missile Stars, they NEVER would have surrendered (4).
That has nothing to do with weakness. (5)
Invading Clans Pg.17
Incorrect. They were the front runners. As I mentioned before they captured more worlds than the other Clans & at as faster pace & according to The Clans: Warriors of Kerensky Pg. 96: (6)
They were assigned a zone. They did not get a chance to win a spot because they never participated in Trials. They were given a spot by the vote of the Grand Council as well as told where they would invade by ilKhan Leo Showers. (7)
Wolf Sourcebook Pg.26
Jaroth Corbett, on 14 March 2014 - 08:11 PM, said:
But the Tukkayid scenario pack states that: (8)
&
(1) But an objective review of the data tells us a different story. At the time when all 4 Clans were unhindered by any rivalry and given free reign to explore their own military touman capabilities, the numbers how us
Now lets look at some numbers for the primary phase of the Invasion (R= Regiment Oppostion or greater). I contrast to JF only because the source books are very detailed (down to names of pilots in touman) and they are the primary antagonists.
Wave 1 CW 10 worlds R 3, JF 9 worlds R 7
Wave 2 CW 6 worlds R 0, JF 12 worlds R 5
Wave 3 CW 11 worlds R 5, JF 5 worlds R 1
Wave 4 CW 16 worlds R 3, JF 16 worlds R 5
Totals CW 43 worlds R 11, JF 42 worlds R 17
So these numbers (direct from the Clan Wolf and Clan Jade Falcon source books) show that at the end of wave two Clan Wolf was measurably behind Clan Jade Falcon (16 worlds vs 21) and had faced regiment strength opostiton on 3 worlds compared to the Falcons 12. - cut and pasted from thread
Ergo, apples to apples comparison the claim that Clan Wolf was taking more and faster is not supported.
(2) Are you suggesting that the Clan Wolf warriors fought knowing that they would all die for no reason? That sounds implausiable at best and not my understanding of Clan culture. Either Clan Wolfs leadership was weak to pick a fight their touman could not win, or Clan Wolfs touman was too weak to win the fights their leadership required.
(3) But they did leave the CoE and hence by custom, are defeated. I get the argument they could have come back to contest the "Absorbtion" but they could come back and retest the "Refusal" as they left the CoE. I use the word 'fled' but freely acknowledge they had orders. I use the word 'fled' because Phelan knew he could go to Woton and assist Ulric and his history of obeying orders is not exactly stellar. Also, Clan Wolf culture talks up and praises the initiative of their officers. The "right" decision was to win the trial and prove Clan Wolf's dominace (assuming a military objective viewpoint), he chose to follow his orders and fled the CoE, ergo was defeated.
(4) But they did, and again had their command structure been sufficiently robust the loss of Ulric would have seen them fight on. It was not and they did surrender. Ergo, they were weaker on this day to their opponent.
(5) It does in the sense that people portray the 4 primary Invading Clans as the top four Clans in Clan space. Hence it is important to note that from a military viewpoint, Clan Wolf was not first, or second, or third, or fourth or even fifth in the contest for the right to invade the IS, they were gifted a spot by virtue of Nicholas's legacy.
(6) Yes, that source is ostensibly Phelan Kells report to the IS and hence has an interested stake. As above an objective view of the numbers conclude that apples to apples, Clan Wolf was only keeping up against significantly weaker opposition. Ergo, not evidence of any superiority.
(7) Exactly, the point is they were given the least preferred zone as the Clans which fought for zones claimed the ones against stronger oppostion. Pg 26 of Clan Wolf Source book specifically says this zone "...seemed to offer the least potential for claiming glory and honour", in effect, the zone that was defendest by the weakest opposition.
(8) Yes, it does. But the key point is that the Clan Wolf was still fighting (Tukayyid says what it does but does not refute the Clan Wolf Source book that states the 13th army was not yet engaged. Indeed, looking at the Tukayyid canon it specifies 13th was deployed to the sector but then is silent on when they two sides actually made contact (which correlates to the CW SB), So in terms of mechs actually fighting, Clan Wolf only saw action against the full 9th and 10th and the burnt up 11th which is no more than some other Clans. Had they made contact / engaged the 13th then undoubtably they would have "faced' more opponents.
We know that Novacat destroyed more enemies than Clan Wolf and that Clan Jade Falcon did significantly more damage to Comguard than they took so these Clans alone have a contest to the claim of most effective against the forces they opposed.
None of which changes that Clan Wolf did seize both objectives and were adjudged as the only Clan to acheive a victory. But heres the key point with this. There were only three definitions of trial outcomes, Loss, Draw and Win. This was judged on a Clan taking and holding their 2 assigned objectives. The opponent was Comguard.
Now whether people like it or not, Comguard still had a huge military potential at their control and we now know that Clan Wolf was the only Clan left on planet. There was no timelimit on the battle that we know of so both sides needed to keep fighting until the others force is rendered done.
Had Clan Wolf actually engaged the 13th army they would most certainly have 'engaged' the most opposition in combat, it also would mean that their ability to hold the objectives would be tested.
This did not occur, the battle 'ended' and hence Clan Wolfs warriors did not prove either vistorious or defeated in combat, their victory was a judged one. (Awarded)
6
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