190 replies to this topic

[ArmandTulsen]

Sandpit, on 23 March 2014 - 06:22 PM, said:

Sure, I get your opinion is that they're "op", mine isn't. No amount of you saying otherwise changes that. No amount of "well I don't like em so they should be nerfed" has yet to explain why a weapon that now does just as much damage and is just as viable as EVERY other weapon in the game now is somehow "op"

It doesn't do more damage than other weapons
It has the ONLY hard counter (ecm) in the game to a weapon system
It requires time before and after achieving lock

But the only things I've seen offered as "proof" it's "OP" are:
It's "easy" to use
4+ mechs running dedicated LRM tubes make it "op"
It counters poptarts so it's "op"

Nowhere in there does it show how a weapon doing just as much (note, not MORE) damage as other weapons when used in good coordination and teamwork, is "op"

Proof and arguments aren't the same thing. Not even close.

Nobody has proof of either side of the argument.

The "easy to use" argument is a legitimate one. Right now, if you take a LRM boat and any other mech head to head in an open match, the LRM mech wins without contest. Even the poptart will have a tough time, because you can just keep him pinned and then flank for clear LOS and dump salvos into them.

[MischiefSC]

ArmandTulsen, on 23 March 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Proof and arguments aren't the same thing. Not even close.

Nobody has proof of either side of the argument.

The "easy to use" argument is a legitimate one. Right now, if you take a LRM boat and any other mech head to head in an open match, the LRM mech wins without contest. Even the poptart will have a tough time, because you can just keep him pinned and then flank for clear LOS and dump salvos into them.

Here's the problem -

Field performance doesn't bear that out. I've helped low/non LRM teams *crush* LRM teams, repeatedly. All the top performers in the contest as well as 12mans don't use LRMs. When you move beyond anecdotal evidence to actual top tier metrics you see that it's not that bad.

[Ghogiel]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

Here's the problem -

Field performance doesn't bear that out. I've helped low/non LRM teams *crush* LRM teams, repeatedly. All the top performers in the contest as well as 12mans don't use LRMs. When you move beyond anecdotal evidence to actual top tier metrics you see that it's not that bad.

Wait for the tourney to be over and then come tell me that LRMs don't hold a spot at the top level of PUG play. It MIGHT die down and it just being the 'hey PGI changed something lets all play the crap out of it effect'.. but I get the feeling lurms are sticking around for a few reasons.


The scoring methods in the tourney will still favor direct fire for more consistent solo play, so pointing to eglar or who ever and saying> look epic assault mech JJ pilot is still epic therefore no one uses LRMs at top tier is flawed.

[Dark Aura]

As a dedicated spider 5D pilot I love the new meta, where all I have to do is hold a lock on the dam Jenner chasing me and watch it melt to lrms, it's brilliant.

My observation is that, lrm deaths appear to be occurring at a greater rate because of the increased volume of lrms in the air rather than their increased effectiveness. Pre-patch people whined just as much if the random draw put enough lrms on the enemy team. Also randoms often tend to be indecisive when faced with lrm rain.

In addition Lrms effectiveness will vary with the average skill level, as a veteran pilot hitting 90% of the time with direct fire will out damage an lrm boat with it's 50% accuracy. In low level elo matched where direct fire accuracy is 50% or less, lrms will totally dominate the battle field, because of significantly higher dps, and due to poor teamwork, and lack of tools/knowledge to counter lrms.

I like the fact I can stick a total noob in an lrm boat and have him add dps to the unit instead of being a liability.

The primary victims of the change are non ecm light pilots, who've yet to adjust to new Paradigm in which they can no longer out run lrms on open ground.

I am encouraged that for once balancing is being addressed with buffs rather than nerfts.

Edited by Dark Aura, 23 March 2014 - 11:14 PM.

[AlmightyAeng]

Varent, on 22 March 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Play a smart brawler that advances using cover.

Varent, in fairness, this weekend I saw brawlers doing half that. Using cover. But people advancing was seldom. It was rather frustrating.

[Dracol]

MischiefSC, on 23 March 2014 - 04:51 PM, said:

Just watched an example of where the new meta goes back. Nice combo of NARCing lights and 50-70 tube LRM boats, two or three of them. A guy would get NARCed, then die in literally 3 seconds. I counted. A full armor Banshee, dead before there was even a chance to look for cover.

My big concern? I like the LRM buffs in general but when the teamwork from this starts really playing out it'll make poptarts look tame.

Maybe a little NARC debuff and a little LRM debuff.

We were seeing this happen before the LRM buff.... but it didn't require a spotter. 2 to 4 jumpsnipers would popup and all aim center torso on a slow mover. Atlai and Banshees if caught in the open would die in salvo.

[KKillian]

Auto aim missles will always have kids defending their skillless playstyle. Same reason arty-aim brings in literally hundreds of thousands of dollars per month. They dont admit to themselves they are hindering any type of skill progression they might gain aiming for themselves, they actually pay money for the garbage and consider it a valid advantage.

This article pretty much defines my feelings on modern shooter players http://www.pcgamer.c...ra-2-interview/ and aside from loving the series and universe, I've stuck with mechwarrior so long due to the general age and quality of the community, older more respectful gamers that are leagues above considering any type of aimbot usage. Currently an autoaim based weapon is dominating the battlefield and either ya sit in cover pussyfooting for 10 minutes or your team happens to have a stronger supression force (more lrms) and you stomp them outright. AMS is an ongoing laughable JOKE compared to any actual anti missle system currently deployed in the year 2014 on planet earth.

All of the hardcore players on my friends list I've met throughout the mwo tournys and pugs are on hiatus since the current patch, as am I.

[KKillian]

Dracol, on 24 March 2014 - 06:34 AM, said:

We were seeing this happen before the LRM buff.... but it didn't require a spotter. 2 to 4 jumpsnipers would popup and all aim center torso on a slow mover. Atlai and Banshees if caught in the open would die in salvo.

Even in a 12 man on comms it would be extremely hard to coordinate a 4 sniper hop, let alone all 4 land the same hardpoint. If they did, it would be a beautiful thing and at that point if you're good enough to even be in that type of elo bracket you should know damn well to turn either sholder twards the shooters long before they finish floating to a firing height.

Absolutely does not compare to 4 lrm mechs raining from behind cover on a narced mech they cannot miss.

[Dracol]

KKillian, on 24 March 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

Even in a 12 man on comms it would be extremely hard to coordinate a 4 sniper hop, let alone all 4 land the same hardpoint. If they did, it would be a beautiful thing and at that point if you're good enough to even be in that type of elo bracket you should know damn well to turn either sholder twards the shooters long before they finish floating to a firing height.

Absolutely does not compare to 4 lrm mechs raining from behind cover on a narced mech they cannot miss.

I will admit, I exaggerated. But, you have to admit, in the old meta, if a mech made a poor decision and walked into the middle of a kill field, 2-3 direct fire mechs can take it down quickly. No amount of AMS coverage or ducking into an ECM bubble will help. Those options are only available to those who are narced.

[Sandpit]

ArmandTulsen, on 23 March 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Right now, if you take a LRM boat and any other mech head to head in an open match, the LRM mech wins without contest.

I REALLY wish they had private matches. I'd give you all the proof you needed that this statement is completely wrong and if you can't take an LRM mech 1v1 you REALLY need to adjust your tactics, not expect the game to cater

[ArmandTulsen]

Sandpit, on 24 March 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

I REALLY wish they had private matches. I'd give you all the proof you needed that this statement is completely wrong and if you can't take an LRM mech 1v1 you REALLY need to adjust your tactics, not expect the game to cater

Tell you what, when private matches are here we'll set this up and settle this. I'll take the LRM mech, and you bring your best whatever.

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 24 March 2014 - 08:21 PM.

[YueFei]

ArmandTulsen, on 23 March 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

Proof and arguments aren't the same thing. Not even close.

Nobody has proof of either side of the argument.

The "easy to use" argument is a legitimate one. Right now, if you take a LRM boat and any other mech head to head in an open match, the LRM mech wins without contest. Even the poptart will have a tough time, because you can just keep him pinned and then flank for clear LOS and dump salvos into them.

Couldn't the direct-fire user just hump a pillar? Fire his shot and fade behind the pillar/building/whatever. Everytime there's line-of-sight, he gets his shot, and then ducks behind cover again. Actual cover, I mean, not just concealment. Exchanges like that are gonna favor the direct-fire platform.

Or if he's a poptart he can get creative and jump-shot and shut-down to break locks. Since it's 1v1, with no light mech to NARC him, or BAP for geting in close to target a shutdown mech, he can shutdown with impunity behind concealment to break locks and not get punished for it. TAG doesn't let you target a shutdown mech.

I mean, the LRM boat is like the Quarterback in American gridiron football. He needs a pocket of pass defenders to protect him in order for him to shred through the other team. He's capable of being a formidable player on the field, but make no mistake: he's not doing it alone. Remove his offensive line and the Quarterback is just a victim. Why do you think NFL teams pay so much for quality offensive linemen?

Edited by YueFei, 24 March 2014 - 11:37 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

ArmandTulsen, on 24 March 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

Tell you what, when private matches are here we'll set this up and settle this. I'll take the LRM mech, and you bring your best whatever.

oh please, sign me up. I'll even cede you 30-50 tons.

[Mekwarrior]

I would like to see short range weapons boosted to make up for LRMS and also the possibility to fit more than 1 AMS on more mechs.

Edited by Mekwarrior, 25 March 2014 - 12:35 AM.

[Mazzyplz]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 March 2014 - 10:36 AM, said:

Oh and stow the "don't have to aim" argument. That is occasionally true, but more often than not, if you don't have dedicated spotters

but if you don't have dedicated spotters, you just invite somebody to a drop, and tell him to get in a raven, or just invite a raven pilot to drop with you.

isn't that 500 times simpler than getting a 4 man together so you don't get stomped because your team is full of noobs who get pwnt by lrm?

yes it is.

and since it's easier it should be less useful

[wanderer]

It's true. PUGs are both easier and less useful.

And that's the key here. Direct fire weaponry beats LRMs given X amount of skill.

With the buff, X is now higher than more PUG players can generate reliably on their own.

Instead, tears. Missiles harvest bad PUGs like wheat, competent players deal with them and kill each other, though it's not as lopsided in favor of the direct fire types now.

LRMs raised the minimum level of skill needed to avoid getting your butt kicked even in casual play, and that's why we see whiny thread after whiny thread about them.

It's the only conclusion I can come to after the patch. I've shot good players with LRMs. Bad players with LRMs. People who whined about LRMs. People who praised them. Some kill me, some I kill. As I have not become an unstoppable Lurmageddon made flesh, logically...the fault lies not in the weapon, but in the people who fail at defending themselves. Many succeed. Some do not. A few of those complain about this failure. Others succeed even as the others complain.

The problem lies with those who complain.

Edited by wanderer, 25 March 2014 - 04:46 AM.

[xlrdallas]

ONLY a lrm spamer would say what the guy above this post said

[wanderer]

Yep, and I also eat small children, dance on a grave on the new moon, and praise Baphomet with offerings of white goats and black chickens on alternate Tuesdays.



Look upon my stats, ye mighty scrubbies and despair!

Oh,wait. They show I wasn't an unstoppable death machine with a 10+ KDR that flicks an LRM 5 like Chuck Norris swings roundhouse kicks?

I guess I must be so terribad that I can't use the divine LRM well enough to smite even the l33t with my ubersystem...



Nope. Top 25 in the tournament. Can't be terribad, but somehow not able to casually obliterate world with my so-called utterly broken weaponry. Guess I might be....oh, reasonably able to be killed and kill people?

Keep whining. I need more salt in my diet and your tears are the only delicious thing in the topic..

[Joseph Mallan]

xlrdallas, on 25 March 2014 - 04:49 AM, said:

ONLY a lrm spamer would say what the guy above this post said

Hate to tell you but I have Zero LRMs on my 4 Mechs. I have a single LRMboat on 4 Accounts... What he said is true.

Those who can do, those who can't call for nerfs.

Wanderer top 25 outta 1,500+
...
Respect

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 25 March 2014 - 05:12 AM.

[Solahma]

Sandpit, on 24 March 2014 - 09:37 AM, said:

I REALLY wish they had private matches. I'd give you all the proof you needed that this statement is completely wrong and if you can't take an LRM mech 1v1 you REALLY need to adjust your tactics, not expect the game to cater

I would pay top-dollar to spectate this

When are these people going to realize the LRMs only appear to be OP because so many people are running them? A single LRM boat vs. just about anything else... NOPE™

There is also the trial Stalker. Even I occasionally dropped in it to satisfy my LRM itch. At least until I set-up my BLR-1S

Imagine if the Spider-5D was a trial mech instead of the 5K. You'd see SO much whining about how ECM is broken, because you'd see it a lot more.