373 replies to this topic

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 10:44 AM, said:

But as I already pointed out, your suggestion that it is easier than other shooters is a nonsensical statement, because like all shooters, the difficulty is determined by your opponent.

Also this particular point.

This is patently not the case. Many other FPShooters have actual game mechanics that make the game more difficult.

I've already explained that due to the size of mechs, the movement style in this game and the lack of weapon realism are all reasons this is an "easy" FPS.

Games that requires you to "steady" a shot, deal with drop off and recoil are all much more difficult than MW:O, even if they are still point and click.

And there are a lot of FPS games where movement is SO fast, that it makes it that much more complicated than MW:O.

On top of that, a lot of FPS games use a more 3D style of fighting, like Titanfall with their wall walking.

MW:O is such a damn flat, undynamic game that you don't even need to worry about what's above you.

I'm sorry Roland, maybe you should step away from MW:O and Star Citizen and go play some real FPS' to understand the difference.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 02 April 2014 - 11:27 AM.

[Roland]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 02 April 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

Yeah except when I play with the good players, it isn't the ability to aim that sets them apart.

Then the reality is that you probably aren't actually playing with the best players... like I said, most of those guys already left.

There are LOTS of things which separate the better players from the garbage boys... Mechwarrior, being in many ways akin to an armor simulator more than a twitch shooter, involves different types of skills to be effective.

However, make no mistake, the best players were ALSO crack shots.. because that's a critical element to putting mechs in the dirt. And there are really only a very few pilots who really EVER played MWO who fell into that category. We're not talking just about being able to hit a mech at range, but being able to consistently nail a very specific location, at will, at extreme range on fast moving targets. Very few pilots can do that, and those who can are invaluable to have on your team.. because they dramatically reduce the time it takes to kill a mech.

For instance, you could take a pilot like Fury from back in MW4.

If you had a dead panel, you had to go to crazy lengths to protect it from him... because HE WOULD NOT MISS if he had any shot on it at all. We're not talking, "Oh he'd probably land the shot." No, he would ALWAYS land the shot. He was a terror on the field as a result, because the killing power of his mechs was dramatically amplified compared to most pilots.

The thing is, very few players in MWO have any experience playing against people like that, and so they just mistakenly assume that such skill doesn't exist... but it does. Or at least, it did at some point in the past when such players still played mechwarrior. The game can facilitate such skill, mainly due to the way damage is modeled... while mechs are often slower than targets in many shooters, the fact that you are forced to hit specific locations rather than just hitting the body tends to make up for that to some degree.

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It's the situational awareness, spatial awareness, knowing the maps and their cover points inside and out. It's the teamwork that doesn't even require a voice com because they just know what to do.

And, again, all of those things play

Nicholas Carlyle, on 02 April 2014 - 11:18 AM, said:

I've never watched a good player play and said to myself "damn this dude can aim". It's WAY too easy for that to ever be something that stands out to me.

You keep making that silly claim that it's so easy.. but you aren't the best gunner in the game dude. You aren't even close. I don't say this as an insult, but merely as a statement of fact. If it really were the case, then you would be the best shot in the game. You'd have perfect accuracy. But you don't, right?

As long as other people are better shots than you, then that means there is some skill level which you yourself have not reached... which means you cannot claim that it is "easy" since you yourself are incapable of doing it.

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Games that requires you to "steady" a shot, deal with drop off and recoil are all much more difficult than MW:O, even if they are still point and click.

Not really, because those same rules apply to everyone... and the difficulty of a competitive game comes from the COMPETITION, not the game mechanics itself.

The only time the game mechanics play into it, is when they set a low skill cap that everyone can reach, and which you cannot progress any further.

But that's no the case here. You aren't the best player in the game. You have not hit the skill cap.

Edited by Roland, 02 April 2014 - 11:43 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 11:39 AM, said:

Then the reality is that you probably aren't actually playing with the best players... like I said, most of those guys already left.

Yeah, I stopped reading after this. You make a lot of dumb assumptions. First off, you do realize I'm not some guy who has been playing for 5 minutes right? I was here before ELO, so I've sure as hell played with the "best" players.

But I do love that you basically said everyone who still plays sucks, must be cool to be you.

Like I said, it doesn't sound like you play any real FPS. Why don't you do that then come back and tell me how hard MW:O is.

[Roland]

Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but it's true. Most of the best players abandoned the game, largely as a result of it becoming very difficult to play together with their friends. Certainly not ALL of them.. I gotta figure some of them still play. But a lot of the old aces just moved on to other games.

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Like I said, it doesn't sound like you play any real FPS. Why don't you do that then come back and tell me how hard MW:O is.

But as I've pointed out multiple times.. you aren't the best gunner in the game, right?

Or are you under the illusion that you are?

Assuming that you recognize that there are other pilots who are better shots than you, how do you explain that fact?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but it's true. Most of the best players abandoned the game, largely as a result of it becoming very difficult to play together with their friends. Certainly not ALL of them.. I gotta figure some of them still play. But a lot of the old aces just moved on to other games.

What does better players abandoning this game have to do with me having been here MORE than long enough to have been in many drops with them?

Do you even bother reading anymore Roland? Come on, man. You are better than this.

Once again...I have been here since 2012. I've seen the best players. Aiming has NEVER impressed me, even watching them.

This game is an EASY FPS.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 02 April 2014 - 12:08 PM.

[Roland]

To be clear, I fully understand the idea of a skill cap instituted by gameplay mechanics.

For instance, imagine a game where you just pushed a button and your bullets magically always went and hit your target. In such a game, the skill cap would be so low that everyone would be effectively "the best player", because achieving the maximum skill level would be trivial.

But in mechwarrior, even without things like bullet drop and recoil, the skill cap is still sufficiently high that YOU have not reached it.

That is what makes it silly for you to claim that it is easy.. because in order to make that claim, you would have had to mastered it. You would have had to have already reached the skill cap, and be established as equal to or better than every other player in the game.

But that's not the case.

Nicholas Carlyle, on 02 April 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

Once again...I have been here since 2012. I've seen the best players. Aiming has NEVER impressed me, even watching them.

This game is an EASY FPS.

So, just to be clear here.. you believe that you are the best shot in the game, and that no other pilot has better gunnery skills than you do.

[Solahma]

Roland pls...

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 12:08 PM, said:

But in mechwarrior, even without things like bullet drop and recoil, the skill cap is still sufficiently high that YOU have not reached it.

Once again making assumptions.

You want to know why I haven't reached the lower skill cap in MW:O?

I play on a couch, in front of a 63 inch Plasma TV with a wireless keyboard and mouse on my lap and to my side. Also my computer is now about 3+ years old.

I am 32 with 2 kids and a wife and a full time job.

Back when I was actually serious about gaming, I played in a perfectly set up desk for my height. With an amazing monitor with an amazing refresh rate. I played with a wired mouse and keyboard with all kinds of macros and on the fly DPI switching depending on what I was doing.

I was on an always state of the art computer as well.

I studied the maps I played on, and drilled myself on the best tactics on them.

I made sure I practiced manuevers and used every weapon ad-nauseum to get used to them.

Thankfully, the weapons in MW:O are so damn simplistic I wouldn't even have to bother to do that if I was serious.

But please, don't mistake my casual play as an adult, for an inability to master this simplistic game.

Edited by Nicholas Carlyle, 02 April 2014 - 12:17 PM.

[Roland]

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You want to know why I haven't reached the lower skill cap in MW:O?

I play on a couch, in front of a 63 inch Plasma TV with a wireless keyboard and mouse on my lap and to my side. Also my computer is now about 3+ years old.
I am 32 with 2 kids and a wife and a full time job.

None of those excuses matter though.

The reason you haven't hit the skill cap, is because you aren't good enough. That's all it comes down to. That's the end of the story.

And this isn't an attack on your manhood or anything.. everything you describe here as to WHY you aren't the most awesome pilot in the game is totally reasonable. I'm in the same boat. I am nowhere CLOSE to the best gunner or pilot in the game, for the same reasons.. I'm a lot older than I was back when I played MW4.

But at the same time, I don't trivialize the skill of those pilots who are better than me. I don't pretend "oh, well this game is easy, and even though I'm not the best at it, those guys who are better aren't actually better, because they're better at something which is easy, and I totally could be better if I wanted to but I don't. Herpa derpa derp."

Trivializing the skill of players who are better than you isn't exactly a new thing on the internet, so it's not like I haven't seen folks do what you're trying to do.. But it's just as laughable every time.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

None of those excuses matter though.

The reason you haven't hit the skill cap, is because you aren't good enough. That's all it comes down to. That's the end of the story.

And this isn't an attack on your manhood or anything.. everything you describe here as to WHY you aren't the most awesome pilot in the game is totally reasonable. I'm in the same boat. I am nowhere CLOSE to the best gunner or pilot in the game, for the same reasons.. I'm a lot older than I was back when I played MW4.

But at the same time, I don't trivialize the skill of those pilots who are better than me. I don't pretend "oh, well this game is easy, and even though I'm not the best at it, those guys who are better aren't actually better, because they're better at something which is easy, and I totally could be better if I wanted to but I don't. Herpa derpa derp."

Trivializing the skill of players who are better than you isn't exactly a new thing on the internet, so it's not like I haven't seen folks do what you're trying to do.. But it's just as laughable every time.

You don't even make sense.

I just explained that I play casually, with an older computer, in a very non-standard set-up for these types of games.

That is the EXACT reason I'm not better at this game.

Give me 10 hours a day to play, with a perfect set-up and I'll be in the top 5% of players in Mechwarrior because this game has such a low skill cap, and piss poor game mechanics due to PGI's inability to deal with Cryengine.

I don't know what YOUR issue is.

But that is mine.

[Roland]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 02 April 2014 - 12:43 PM, said:

You don't even make sense.

I just explained that I play casually, with an older computer, in a very non-standard set-up for these types of games.

That is the EXACT reason I'm not better at this game.

Give me 10 hours a day to play, with a perfect set-up and I'll be in the top 5% of players in Mechwarrior because this game has such a low skill cap, and piss poor game mechanics due to PGI's inability to deal with Cryengine.

I don't know what YOUR issue is.

But that is mine.

Oh, so all you would need to get better is 10 hours a day to practice... because it's easy?

If you spend 10 hours a day practicing ANYTHING you'll get good at it.

Your statement here is nonsensical... It's like saying, "I could totally be an MMA fighter.. I just don't do any of the training or conditioning. But I totally could. So that stuff is easy."

Yeah dude, if you practiced and got better, then you would be better. But you don't, and so you aren't. And the people who do, and are better than you, are more skilled than you are.

You seem to be measuring skill based upon some ridiculous perception of "Potential skill" rather than ACTUAL skill. That you are under the illusion that you are equally skilled compared to a player who is better than you, because you COULD (at least in your mind) achieve that same degree of skill, if you chose to... but you just choose not to, and thus you are equally skilled to him.

No dude. That's not how competition works.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 10:34 AM, said:

Again, it isn't that lrms use some totally separate set of skills compared to weapons you aim.

They use a subset.

And again, I just find it hard to take people seriously who try to minimize things like aiming skill in a shooter by saying "is just point and click!"

Yes, that is how computer games work. You click on things.

And yet, doing so requires skill, and most of the folks who try to minimize that skill tend to be people who aren't good at clicking.

You aren't running a hundred percent accuracy with your weapons. Obviously there is something more to it, since you can't do it perfectly.

Saying they use a "subset" is just saying they are a lesser weapon (which they are in that they are nowhere near as good as they should be).

No, they use the same set of skills but need to be better at it than FLD players. After you fire your PPC, AC, or whatever you are free to do whatever you like while the LRM user needs to keep the lock or lose the missiles.
Also if you have LOS the opponents skill means very little to the damage you do with FLD weapons.
FLD = 2 seconds at most per shot to use.
LRM's = Much longer depending on target distance/speed.

My hit ratio will never be high on purpose. I will always take snap/risky shots with any weapon because it's better than not taking the chance..

[Roland]

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Saying they use a "subset" is just saying they are a lesser weapon (which they are in that they are nowhere near as good as they should be).

No, saying they use a subset means that the skills involved in using LRM's is a subset of the skills involved in using other weapons.

Mainly, it involves things like being able to position your mech, and be aware of what is happening on the battlefield, which are used by mechs employing any weapons... But doesn't involve the skills involved in precision aiming.

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No, they use the same set of skills but need to be better at it than FLD players. After you fire your PPC, AC, or whatever you are free to do whatever you like while the LRM user needs to keep the lock or lose the missiles.

No, not really.

Indeed, due to the limitations of the LRM's, you really aren't free to do much.. so you can't really employ a whole lot of skillfull maneuvering. You are required to stare directly at your target.

In order to be effective with direct fire weapons, that generally means you have to soak damage while your weapons are cooling down.

Again, the confusion here seems to be that you are conflating skill level with effectiveness.

The fact that direct fire weapons enable you to soak damage if you can pilot effectively means that they have the potential to be more effective... but it also means that in order to do that, you are employing an additional skill which doesn't really come into play int he scenario you described (because, as you rightfully pointed out, you aren't free to do other things).

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My hit ratio will never be high on purpose. I will always take snap/risky shots with any weapon because it's better than not taking the chance..

And if you become a better shot, then you will actually land those snap shots.

That's the thing.. Good pilots are able to make those snap shots consistently.

Also... saying that your accuracy rate is low "on purpose" is kind of absurd.
You aren't actually TRYING to miss. You're just taking shots, and missing. That is something which is related to pilot skill.

You seem to be suggesting that the only possibility is to not take those shots, but the other alternative is to just become a better gunner, and be able to land those shots.

[Wolfways]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 02:06 PM, said:

No, saying they use a subset means that the skills involved in using LRM's is a subset of the skills involved in using other weapons.

Mainly, it involves things like being able to position your mech, and be aware of what is happening on the battlefield, which are used by mechs employing any weapons... But doesn't involve the skills involved in precision aiming.

And situational awareness is more important in a mech that cannot effectively fight back if caught out by an enemy. Kind of like how snipers are much more cautious than "grunts" (no offense to any military people out there ).

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No, not really.

Indeed, due to the limitations of the LRM's, you really aren't free to do much.. so you can't really employ a whole lot of skillfull maneuvering. You are required to stare directly at your target.

In order to be effective with direct fire weapons, that generally means you have to soak damage while your weapons are cooling down.

Actually if you're soaking damage while your weapons cool down i'd say you are a bad player or are fighting a better player as you shouldn't be soaking damage, you should be in cover.
It's the "keeping the target locked" that makes LRM mechs be forced to soak damage that FLD mechs don't have to.
Btw, weapon cooldown in MWO is practically nonexistent.

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Again, the confusion here seems to be that you are conflating skill level with effectiveness.

The fact that direct fire weapons enable you to soak damage if you can pilot effectively means that they have the potential to be more effective... but it also means that in order to do that, you are employing an additional skill which doesn't really come into play int he scenario you described (because, as you rightfully pointed out, you aren't free to do other things).

Because players using LRM's never learn to torso-twist when using other weapons/not firing LRM's...

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And if you become a better shot, then you will actually land those snap shots.

Obviously. That applies to everyone...but has nothing to do with how effective LRM's should be.

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That's the thing.. Good pilots are able to make those snap shots consistently.

Also... saying that your accuracy rate is low "on purpose" is kind of absurd.
You aren't actually TRYING to miss. You're just taking shots, and missing. That is something which is related to pilot skill.

No, i am saying i often miss on purpose.
While setting weapon groups i might fire a few times to check they're correct.
Many times, shooting the ground near a hidden enemy will make them back up further into cover.
And sometimes i fire just for the hell of it. Why not. I don't care about my hit ratio, KDR, etc.

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You seem to be suggesting that the only possibility is to not take those shots, but the other alternative is to just become a better gunner, and be able to land those shots.

Apparently nobody ingame can do that now as all the best players left
Oh wait...i rarely play now. I must be a good player!

Edit: Btw, go play a recon sniper in Global Agenda and then tell me hitting targets in MWO is hard.

Edited by Wolfways, 02 April 2014 - 02:41 PM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 06:33 AM, said:

And yet, just previously, you said:


So if it's easy mode, then you should have significantly higher accuracy.

And those accuracy numbers you posted there, aren't even indicative of actual skill, because those are simply a record of how many times you fired a weapon and actually hit SOMETHING with it. Your actual accuracy in terms of landing a precision shot exactly where you want on a mech (which is how you actually kill mechs in Mechwarrior) is guaranteed to be even lower than that.

This is why folks who say that there isn't any skill involved in gunnery in Mechwarrior are full of it.. because there is a massive difference between people who are crack shots, and the great unwashed masses in this game. And quite frankly, you aren't one of the people who are the best shots in this game.

There are pilots who are better shots in this game, and the reason is because they are more skilled pilots than you.

Now, the reality is that most of those folks who were really best at this game don't even play it any more, due to how the game has basically stagnated.. but you're fooling yourself when you try and pretend like those people aren't better than you.

actually, just previously, Joseph Mallon said.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 12:06 PM, said:

Sorry if it hurts your feelings, but it's true. Most of the best players abandoned the game, largely as a result of it becoming very difficult to play together with their friends. Certainly not ALL of them.. I gotta figure some of them still play. But a lot of the old aces just moved on to other games.


But as I've pointed out multiple times.. you aren't the best gunner in the game, right?

Or are you under the illusion that you are?

Assuming that you recognize that there are other pilots who are better shots than you, how do you explain that fact?

Just kinda curious where you get your all knowing stats as to who is and isn't the "Leet" in this game. And curious where you rank yourself there, hotshot.

[Roland]

Wolfways, on 02 April 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

And situational awareness is more important in a mech that cannot effectively fight back if caught out by an enemy.

Lacking situational awareness against good pilots will get you killed regardless of what you are in.

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Actually if you're soaking damage while your weapons cool down i'd say you are a bad player or are fighting a better player as you shouldn't be soaking damage, you should be in cover.

"Soaking damage" is a term used to describe forcing your opponent to spread damage over your mech's panels, rather then allowing him to kill you through a single location. It's one of the primary skills in piloting a mech. It doesn't mean intentionally getting damaged.

And while not taking damage through cover is always a superior option, it's naive to suggest that it would always be the case, given that engagements do not alway take place solely at long range (although in MWO, the generally poor quality of infighting weapons compared to prior titles may give you that impression).

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It's the "keeping the target locked" that makes LRM mechs be forced to soak damage that FLD mechs don't have to.

Btw, weapon cooldown in MWO is practically nonexistent.

A missile boat isn't soaking damage. He's taking damage. There's a difference there, as described previously.

If you are forced to look directly at your target in order to keep a lock, then you aren't really soaking.

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Because players using LRM's never learn to torso-twist when using other weapons/not firing LRM's...

At that point you're talking about using other weapons.

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No, i am saying i often miss on purpose.

While setting weapon groups i might fire a few times to check they're correct.
Many times, shooting the ground near a hidden enemy will make them back up further into cover.
And sometimes i fire just for the hell of it. Why not. I don't care about my hit ratio, KDR, etc.

Come on dude. Such things have no significant impact on your weapons stats. They constitute a trivial percentage of shots fired.

If you are blaming your poor stats on those things, then you're fooling yourself.

Bishop Steiner, on 02 April 2014 - 02:43 PM, said:

Just kinda curious where you get your all knowing stats as to who is and isn't the "Leet" in this game. And curious where you rank yourself there, hotshot.

A lot of the best players were actually folks who came over from Mechwarrior 4. The Snow Ravens, Steel Jaguar guys? Those were all guys who played with us for years back in the old MW4 planetary leagues. And generally, they were head and shoulders above the level at which most of the playerbase operated.

I would not put myself up there with the best pilots, as I don't really put the time into the game to be that good. Although, at the same time, I was pulling a reasonably high KD, mostly while doing solo pugging.. and the game kept putting me up against some of the best players in the game. And I could play crazy drunk and still top the scoreboard.

But ultimately, we don't judge ourselves. We are judged by those who play with and against us.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, the 10 hours a day isn't to practice aiming. The aiming part comes from sitting properly at a desk with a good computer and peripherals. As I said, aiming is not hard in MW:O.

Nor do I need to "practice" with different weapons, due to the fact that all of the weapons that one would use if they were worried about being the "best" work exactly the same. It's FLD bullcrap with no separating features (IE as I've said, recoil, reticle shake due to movement, bullet drop, etc.)

It would be mostly to practice strategies and tactics revolving around proper map usage.

That's what the good players do.

This conversation is obviously above your head, the fact I had to explain that is pretty sad.

[Roland]

So what's your excuse then for not being that good a shot?

Or are you back to suggesting that you actually are the best shot in the game?

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Roland, on 02 April 2014 - 03:55 PM, said:

So what's your excuse then for not being that good a shot?

Or are you back to suggesting that you actually are the best shot in the game?

Can you not read? Go back and re-read it again, and again, and again....then when you've answered that question yourself, come back to the conversation.

I've told you MULTIPLE times.

Do you have some kind of issues that we were not aware of before this thread?