347 replies to this topic

[MeiSooHaityu]

Yea, I can see the point of that somewhat, but a 50 Hunchback performs almost identical to a 55 ton Shadow Hawk. Saying an 80 Ton mech should perform WAY better than an 85 ton mech (only 5 tons difference) seems like an ehh argument to me anyway (especially when you are jumping class designations).

Now did I think to myself..."Man, those Victors really need to be nerfed!", nope it was never a concern for me. I think most people who play MWO never thought that. Just PGI thought it needed to be balanced and it happened. Did the same with the Catapult (Torso twist rate), The Swaback (6+ MLaser ghost heat), etc... It happens.

This nerf to me makes sense, so I am not that angry (and I also have Victors), but it also wouldn't have been a priority to me. Either way, I get the nerf.

Edited by MeiSooHaityu, 04 April 2014 - 08:08 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2014 - 08:04 AM, said:

But that's the whole issue.  Victor performing like 80 tons is the cause for all this grief in the first place.  I could even argue that pre-nerf, Victor was more agile than Orion when you add JJs into the equation.

Only when you invest a lot of tonnage into a large XL engine. But anyway that is what I am saying. Bring it down 10% to balance the JJs (the Highlander treatment). 20% is excessive. There are interesting numbers in this thread. Take a look at Ultimatums table, I think we can agree that it could use a bump up now.

[Gas Guzzler]

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 April 2014 - 08:07 AM, said:

Yea, I can see the point of that somewhat, but a 50 Hunchback performs almost identical to a 55 ton Shadow Hawk. Saying an 80 Ton mech should perform WAY better than an 85 ton mech (only 5 tons difference) seems like an ehh argument to me anyway (especially when you are jumping class designations).

Now did I think to myself..."Man, those Victors really need to be nerfed!", nope it was never a concern for me. I think most people who play MWO never thought that. Just PGI thought it needed to be balanced and it happened. Did the same with the Catapult (Torso twist rate), The Swaback (6+ MLaser ghost heat), etc... It happens.

This nerf to me makes sense, so I am not that angry (and I also have Victors), but it also wouldn't have been a priority to me. Either way, I get the nerf.

Did you miss that the Victor torso twists like an Atlas now? I don't get how that doesn't raise a red flag for everyone.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 April 2014 - 08:24 AM.

[Prezimonto]

oldradagast, on 04 April 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:

Exactly. The various jump-jet nerfs and changes to the Victor's agility have badly hurt it's brawling ability. I used to run a Standard 300, an AC20, and 2 large lasers, for example, for brawling. Not an overwhelming amount of firepower, but with the mech's agility, it could keep moving around to carve up foes while they had a hard time pinning the mech down. Sure, smaller mechs were faster, but I could practically walk around an Atlas or Stalker and tear it apart - they had more firepower, but I had more mobility.

Now, none of that is really practical anymore. The jump-jet changes and agility nerfs have really harmed the Victor's ability to brawl, and the painful reality is that the only thing the mech had going for it was agility. It's hit boxes are decent, sure, but it is rather undergunned for an assault mech in no small part thanks to the idiotic missile tube layout that forces SRM's to stream in silly, tiny clumps.

It's not a bad mech now, but it just feels wrong. You can still jump snipe in them, but the Victor was designed as a fast "in and out" brawler, and it's not really that good at that anymore. So, it hangs back, jump sniping or poking at things with the autocannons and PPC's... it's okay that that, but it doesn't really stand out anymore - it's role as a fast strike assault is gone.

I agree completely. It's not that you can't make Victor's work, it's that these changes killed it's viability for a relatively unique role leaving the boring/stale meta we have. I really desperately wish they'd include penalties, or quirks, or a weapon sizing system to help control turning medium lasers into PPC's or even large lasers.

One quick change they could have made would be to up the tonnage of the JJ to 2 tons instead of what they did, it would make the high alpha builds slower still (as engine size goes down to compensate) but I'd probably move to a mix of SRM's and medium lasers to save some tonnage off the LL (normal build is AC20/2xLL) and reinvest in JJ. My striking range goes down (nerf) but build is still viable.

Or add a mech quirk that give's it ghost heat when more than 1 PPC is fired.... the mech's energy systems can't handle more power at one time. They should do this more more variants like the 8Q getting a quirk allowing you to fire 3PPC's at one time. It would go a long way to differentiating the mechs and rewarding playing nearer to a classic build.

Or how about giving scaling heat penalties for changing builds drastically upwards: your hardpoint lists a ML, and you put a LL there... +1 Heat... put a PPC there +2 heat... the powerlines aren't rated for the larger weapons and the mech isn't built to dissipate the extra heat generated. Build a set of modules that help decrease the effect. Give some mechs skill unlocks that decrease the effects for certain combinations.

This makes the mechs designed to carry the big weapons special, as they've often got other drawbacks already present.

Any of these things would help preserve the quick striking brawling playstyle that goes with the Victor, while decreasing it's ability to power up with the poptart meta.

Edited by Prezimonto, 04 April 2014 - 08:36 AM.

[El Bandito]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 April 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

Did you miss that the Victor torso twists like an Atlas now? I don't get how that doesn't raise a red flag for everyone.

I was under the impression that you can still torso twist faster than usual when in mid-flight.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I was under the impression that you can still torso twist faster than usual when in mid-flight.

Maybe someone can correct me on this but I thought you either twist or turn at 70% of your normal speed. Or maybe you turn at 70% normal turning speed, and twist at the same speed. I will try to dig up the patch notes where they changed that.

[Harathan]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I was under the impression that you can still torso twist faster than usual when in mid-flight.

Are you suggesting a Victor should spend its time brawling in mid-air?

[Ancih]

The problem was always the turn speed that was it was too good (not the torso twist or arm speed, those wear proportional to its weight, orion, catapharact and lighter heavies were faster in that regard and stalker/battlemaster and heavier assault were slower) that was it was too good, it was giving him too sharp turn compare to other mech close to its weight, check the torso and arm speed numbers for yourself:

https://docs.google....1#gid=458819393

pre-nerf turn + pre nerf JJ, that was giving the Victor its "dancing" power. because everything else was fine relative to other mechs

El Bandito, on 04 April 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I was under the impression that you can still torso twist faster than usual when in mid-flight.

look at the numbers yourself and let us know what you think about it

[Prezimonto]

Ancih, on 04 April 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

The problem was always the turn speed that was it was too good (not the torso twist or arm speed, those wear proportional to its weight, orion, catapharact and lighter heavies were faster in that regard and stalker/battlemaster and heavier assault were slower) that was it was too good, it was giving him too sharp turn compare to other mech close to its weight, check the torso and arm speed numbers for yourself:

https://docs.google....1#gid=458819393

pre-nerf turn + pre nerf JJ, that was giving the Victor its "dancing" power. because everything else was fine relative to other mechs




look at the numbers yourself and let us know what you think about it

I like data! Good Job, Good Jorb even.

[Gas Guzzler]

Gas Guzzler, on 04 April 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

Maybe someone can correct me on this but I thought you either twist or turn at 70% of your normal speed. Or maybe you turn at 70% normal turning speed, and twist at the same speed. I will try to dig up the patch notes where they changed that.

They don't describe it but in March 4th patch, midair turn speed is determined by class of JJs equipped and Mechs base turning speed. My assumption is that it is slower since that patch because they were trying to nerf Jumping in general for heavies and assaults.

[El Bandito]

Harathan, on 04 April 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

Are you suggesting a Victor should spend its time brawling in mid-air?

All good Victor pilots used JJ twist when dealing with mechs faster than them. It is a valid strategy.

Hell, my A1 always brawled in mid-air and it had great success with that.

Ancih, on 04 April 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

look at the numbers yourself and let us know what you think about it

You didn't include turn/twist speed in flight so I can't give you an answer. Unless PGI put it in a patch note I am still going to assume that Victors (or any mechs) get a speed boost in turn/twist in flight.

Edited by El Bandito, 04 April 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Prezimonto, on 02 April 2014 - 12:13 PM, said:

I'm not suggesting things didn't need some tweaking. But 20% nerf feels really bad. I wish they'd have done 10% or even 5% over several patches until the mech moved okay, but not too fast.

Nor did I. Just pointing out that the Victor was a jumping, spinning, 80t whirling dervish of death and generated a whole lot of "oh woe is the poor bastash" on the receiving end of that.

[Gas Guzzler]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2014 - 08:41 AM, said:

All good Victor pilots used JJ twist when dealing with mechs faster than them. It is a valid strategy.

Hell, my A1 always brawled in mid-air and it had great success with that.




You didn't include twist speed in flight so I can't give you an answer. Unless PGI put it in a patch note I am still going to assume that Victors get a speed boost in torso twisting in flight.

In any case, the numbers don't lie, check the number Ancih linked to:

https://docs.google....1#gid=458819393

If you don't like the Atlas comparison, compare to the Highlander as they both have Jump Jets. We can all agree that the lighter of two mechs with jump jets should exhibit higher twisting speeds.

Where is it posted that mechs get a torso twist speed boost in flight??? Since the JJ patch they definitely turn slower in mid air. But I never would have thought you get a torso twist speed boost in flight. That doesn't make any sense.

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 April 2014 - 08:50 AM.

[Almond Brown]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 02 April 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

So you think a Victor should be less maneuverable as a Stalker and Highlander and on par with an Atlas. Interesting. What advantage would it have then?

Stuff

And where does the Awesome fit into the grand scheme of all this then? It is the same weight and does not even come close to comparing ffs. It is not the other heavier Mechs it should compare to, but those of the same weight.

Give those Victors, other than the "specials", the same 300 max Engine as an Awesome. Then come back and complain about getting nerfed.

[Prezimonto]

Almond Brown, on 04 April 2014 - 08:44 AM, said:

Nor did I. Just pointing out that the Victor was a jumping, spinning, 80t whirling dervish of death and generated a whole lot of "oh woe is the poor bastash" on the receiving end of that.

And this is why I want something to curtail totally open builds. Any mech that can do this can ALSO poptart like nobodies business. They shouldn't be able to do both well, I agree. But the Victor is SUPPOSED to be an 80t whiring dervish of close ranged death that's hard to pin down. It should excel at that, and you should want to control engagement range to avoid having to deal with them in close. But because we can replace any weapon with PPC's the mech can pack a punch at all ranges, snipe, poptart, brawl.

All these nerfs did was kill it's actual ability to excel at brawling without really touching all the EXTRA added utility the game mechanics give the mech.

[Almond Brown]

Prezimonto, on 03 April 2014 - 05:24 PM, said:

The problem is that the Victor is now quite a bit less nimble than the 9M with the same engine caps. That also isn't balance.

Another Chart required apparently. Victor vs 9M please.

[Gas Guzzler]

Almond Brown, on 04 April 2014 - 08:49 AM, said:

And where does the Awesome fit into the grand scheme of all this then? It is the same weight and does not even come close to comparing ffs. It is not the other heavier Mechs it should compare to, but those of the same weight.

Give those Victors, other than the "specials", the same 300 max Engine as an Awesome. Then come back and complain about getting nerfed.

Engine limit should not factor in. Smaller engine means more tons for weapons, armor, and heat sinks. Best comparison is holding engine size equal. 10% reduction in twist speed makes sense because of the jump jets. Or give Awesomes a boost in agility as well, god knows they need it to help them compete with the rest.

Almond Brown, on 04 April 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Another Chart required apparently. Victor vs 9M please.

There is a table a couple pages back. With 300 engine, 9M twists at 82 deg/s, Victor at 60 deg/s

Edited by Gas Guzzler, 04 April 2014 - 08:58 AM.

[Almond Brown]

Prezimonto, on 03 April 2014 - 06:39 PM, said:

Wait, so it's balanced against the bar-none worst mech in the game?

I beg to differ, it was one of the most effective brawlers in the game, being beaten out only by some specialty builds with 3+ ballistics.

Which is why I don't complain that it got a small nerf to mobility, but it's also possible that the Victor was really in a sweet spot of tonnage vs. mobility vs. survivability for this game's current state.

What I hate seeing is that a mech, traditionally meant to be a brawler and excelling in that role, is nerfed in brawling because it's ALSO highly effective in firesupport/poptarting. I'd much rather see the poptarting be nerfed and the much more difficult and niche role of brawler preserved.

And therein lies the crux of it. If you have an 80t Mech that excels at all things, Sniper/Jumper and Brawler, wtf do those poor 50t - 75t chassis do for fun? SFA is the answer and why the Victor need to be toned down. It makes room for the "others" to get into the game as well.

[Ultimax]

MeiSooHaityu, on 04 April 2014 - 07:51 AM, said:

Was poptarting really the reason PGI nerfed the Victor? Did they say that, or are people assuming this because they nerfed the Highlander for poptarting?

I ask because the Victor nerf seems to be designed to make it perform more like other mechs in it's class (other Assaults) and not like a relatively high powered and high armored Heavy mech.

I really don't think poptarting played a role in this nerf. Maybe it did, but I doubt it (again if someone has a tweet from PGI or a patch note saying the nerf was poptart related, then I suppose I am wrong. I just never saw anything along those lines.

This chart will show why your assumption is wrong.

It's not functioning "like other mechs in its class" - it is now one of the lightest mechs in its class with Torso Pitch/Yaw and Arm Speed similar to the heaviest mechs in its class.

In fact it has worse Torso Pitch/Yaw than the Banshee - A Mech with a 15 Ton Armor & Firepower Advantage.

Tonage	80	80	85	85	90	95	100
Mech	Victor	Awesome	Battlemaster	Stalker	Highlander	Banshee	Atlas
Engine	300	300	300	300	300	300	300
Torso Yaw Speed	60° /s	82° /s	70° /s	70° /s	60° /s	63° /s	60° /s
Torso Pitch Speed	33° /s	46° /s	39° /s	39° /s	33° /s	35° /s	33° /s
Arm Speed	151° /s	168° /s	158° /s	158° /s	150° /s	142° /s	135° /s
Turn Speed	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	38.22 °/s 9.42 s	36.21 °/s 9.94 s	34.39 °/s 10.47 s

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 April 2014 - 09:02 AM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Ultimatum X, on 04 April 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

This chart will show why your assumption is wrong.

It's not functioning "like other mechs in its class" - it is now one of the lightest mechs in its class with Torso Pitch/Yaw and Arm Speed similar to the heaviest mechs in its class.

In fact it has worse Torso Pitch/Yaw than the Banshee - A Mech with a 15 Ton Armor & Firepower Advantage.

Tonage	80	80	85	85	90	95	100
Mech	Victor	Awesome	Battlemaster	Stalker	Highlander	Banshee	Atlas
Engine	300	300	300	300	300	300	300
Torso Yaw Speed	60° /s	82° /s	70° /s	70° /s	60° /s	63° /s	60° /s
Torso Pitch Speed	33° /s	46° /s	39° /s	39° /s	33° /s	35° /s	33° /s
Arm Speed	151° /s	168° /s	158° /s	158° /s	150° /s	142° /s	135° /s
Turn Speed	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	42.99 °/s 8.37 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	40.46 °/s 8.90 s	38.22 °/s 9.42 s	36.21 °/s 9.94 s	34.39 °/s 10.47 s

Are you guys sure that the turning speed is correct? I don't have a way to test it against the awesome but it was the same in mechlab as the Atlas with XL 325 engines?

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 04 April 2014 - 10:25 AM.