347 replies to this topic

[Prezimonto]

Almond Brown, on 04 April 2014 - 08:59 AM, said:

And therein lies the crux of it. If you have an 80t Mech that excels at all things, Sniper/Jumper and Brawler, wtf do those poor 50t - 75t chassis do for fun? SFA is the answer and why the Victor need to be toned down. It makes room for the "others" to get into the game as well.

I needs to excel at something for it's weight class. Meaning it should be comparable to 75 to 85 ton mech. And if it's designed to be nimble it should come with draw backs to make sure it can't do that AND deal big damage at range.

I completely understand that mechs need drawbacks, but we focus on seemingly odd choices that all end up making all assaults good jump snipers. I want my Victor to be a blitzer not a quarterback.

[Ancih]

Almond Brown, on 04 April 2014 - 08:54 AM, said:

Another Chart required apparently. Victor vs 9M please.

AWS-9M @300
Torso Yaw: 82°/s
Torso Pitch: 46°/s
Arm Speed: 168°/s

Victor @300 pre nerf
Torso Yaw: 75°/s (now 60°/s)
Torso Pitch: 42°/s (now 33°/s)
Arm speed: 168°/s (now 151°/s)

Victor @300 post nerf
Torso Yaw: 60°/s
Torso Pitch: 33°/s
Arm speed: 151°/s

--

AWS-9M @385
Torso Yaw: 105°/s
Torso Pitch: 59°/s
Arm Speed: 216°/s

Victor @385 pre nerf
Torso Yaw: 96°/s
Torso Pitch: 54°/s
Arm Speed: 216°/s

Victor @385 post nerf
Torso Yaw: 77°/s
Torso Pitch: 43°/s
Arm Speed: 194°/s


edited for mistype on last engine size

Edited by Ancih, 04 April 2014 - 03:04 PM.

[Ancih]

oh and btw there is a small mistake on Ultimatum exel sheet, the 375 comparison is actually 385, still great work

[Ancih]

El Bandito, on 04 April 2014 - 08:27 AM, said:

I was under the impression that you can still torso twist faster than usual when in mid-flight.

that impression is from the pre JJ nerf, I can assure you that jump turning is much slower than it was before, especially for assault mechs. Sorry but its hard to understand the JJ specs data. Victor use Class 2 JJ and the specs for those are: Horizontal boost: 4.10 Vertical boost: 60.71

Compared to other JJ Class:
Class I: Horizontal 4.10 Vertical 62.00 Weight Class: 90t - 200t
Class II: Horizontal 4.10 Vertical 60.71 Weight Class: 80t - 90t
Class III: Horizontal 4.10 Vertical 56.30 Weight Class: 60t - 80t
Class IV: Horizontal 4.10 Vertical 39.30 Weight Class: 40t - 60t
Class V: Horizontal 4.10 Vertical 25.00 Weight Class: 20t - 40t

Edited by Ancih, 04 April 2014 - 12:10 PM.

[Ancih]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 04 April 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

Are you guys sure that the turning speed is correct? I don't have a way to test it against the awesome but it was the same in mechlab as the Atlas with XL 325 engines?

100% sure, no, but let's say 95%, those numbers are from smurfy and I trust they are correct.

[Ultimax]

Ancih, on 04 April 2014 - 11:35 AM, said:

oh and btw there is a small mistake on Ultimatum exel sheet, the 375 comparison is actually 385, still great work

Edited the google doc.

http://bit.ly/1q2vBgs.

Thanks!

Edited by Ultimatum X, 04 April 2014 - 12:28 PM.

[Hillslam]

The Victor nerf was too much. It s a wrong move. I haven't played them since trying them post-patch.

In fact my playing in general has greatly decreased due to "balancing" like this.

[Harathan]

I'm just going to sell my Victor and buy a Battlemaster or Stalker instead. Why would I want an 80ton mech that was designed for close combat to have the maneuverability of a 100 ton mech, when I can pilot an 85 ton mech that gives me 5 extra tons to play with and is more manouverable despite being heavier and NOT designed for close combat? The nerf was too much, just like the LRM boost. They've already pulled that back a bit, now they need to fix this mess too.

Edited by Harathan, 04 April 2014 - 12:47 PM.

[Ancih]

Ultimatum X, on 04 April 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Edited the google doc.

http://bit.ly/1q2vBgs.

Thanks!

Ultimatum X, on 04 April 2014 - 12:28 PM, said:

Edited the google doc.

http://bit.ly/1q2vBgs.

Thanks!

YAY
I think some people need some more comparison

AWS-9M @385
Torso Yaw: 105°/s
Torso Pitch: 59°/s
Arm Speed: 216°/s

same tonnage, max engine
if that doesn't open their eyes I don't know what else to say

[XX Sulla XX]

Hopefully the fix the balance of the Victor next patch.

[Ultimax]

XX Sulla XX, on 04 April 2014 - 04:48 PM, said:

Hopefully the fix the balance of the Victor next patch.

A few of us are bugging Russ & Paul on twitter, no real response yet.

[xe N on]

Victor needs serious buff. Beside poptarting, it is now the second worst assault mech, beside the Awesome. Compared to an Atlas or an Banshee or an Stalker, the Victor cannot compete.

It lacks in tonnage, in armor, in turn speed, amount of hardpoint and even location of hardpoints.

Compared to my Atlas, the Victor feels fragile, even if I use a standard engine. Compared to my Shadowhawk, the Victor feels fragile too. Sometimes I have the feeling that I can soak alot of more damage with my SDH by torso twisting then with my Victor. Overall, my SDH's are the better Victors, lol.

That's simply wrong game balance.

Edited by xe N on, 05 April 2014 - 01:01 PM.

[Hillslam]

yes those rotation and arm movement numbers pretty much spells out why it was over corrected.

No arguing math.


Please re-adjust the Victor to bring it back in line with the curve.

[Mavairo]

Harathan, on 04 April 2014 - 12:45 PM, said:

I'm just going to sell my Victor and buy a Battlemaster or Stalker instead. Why would I want an 80ton mech that was designed for close combat to have the maneuverability of a 100 ton mech, when I can pilot an 85 ton mech that gives me 5 extra tons to play with and is more manouverable despite being heavier and NOT designed for close combat? The nerf was too much, just like the LRM boost. They've already pulled that back a bit, now they need to fix this mess too.

"Just as maneuverable as a 100 ton mech" Really? You don't think 80 kph, and pin point weaponry (more than you can carry on a Heavy, when you break out the XL engine which you SHOULD be running on a Victor) isn't worth fielding?

The BattleTurd, is most certainly that compared to a Victor. In a brawl, at range, everything. Because the Battle **** is so massive that it's target profile makes its STs as easy to hit as the CT of a Dragon.

Don't even get me started on the Not Awesome.
The Victor uses Speed in a brawl. Not native turn rate.

I have 3 Victors (One of which is the DS), 3 Not Awesomes and 3 Battleturds. The Victor his hands and feet above and beyond either of it's similar weight humanoid counterparts. It's right on par with the Stalker (which is vastly slower, but carries a much harder over all punch due to being a Walking Gun), which I also have.
And there's not a single assault mech, and hell there's very few heavies for that matter that I can't out dance in the Victor because of it's high forward speed and jump capability.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 April 2014 - 05:33 AM.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

The left axe nerf was about 20% too, and it was the beginning of the end for DAoC. At least Mechwarrior has a niche community that will support in spite of being ripped off.

[xe N on]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

"Just as maneuverable as a 100 ton mech" Really? You don't think 80 kph, and pin point weaponry (more than you can carry on a Heavy, when you break out the XL engine which you SHOULD be running on a Victor) isn't worth fielding?

For moving at 80 kph you need minimum a XL 350. Jagermech, Cataphract and the K2 can carry the same or even better layout then any Victor, but have a smaller silhouette and don't need such an big engine to move fast. Beside, their arm movement and torso twist speed now is much better then the Victors.

Victor still lack in every aspect.

Edited by xe N on, 06 April 2014 - 09:18 AM.

[Ancih]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 05:33 AM, said:

"Just as maneuverable as a 100 ton mech" Really? You don't think 80 kph, and pin point weaponry (more than you can carry on a Heavy, when you break out the XL engine which you SHOULD be running on a Victor) isn't worth fielding?

The BattleTurd, is most certainly that compared to a Victor. In a brawl, at range, everything. Because the Battle **** is so massive that it's target profile makes its STs as easy to hit as the CT of a Dragon.

Don't even get me started on the Not Awesome.
The Victor uses Speed in a brawl. Not native turn rate.

I have 3 Victors (One of which is the DS), 3 Not Awesomes and 3 Battleturds. The Victor his hands and feet above and beyond either of it's similar weight humanoid counterparts. It's right on par with the Stalker (which is vastly slower, but carries a much harder over all punch due to being a Walking Gun), which I also have.
And there's not a single assault mech, and hell there's very few heavies for that matter that I can't out dance in the Victor because of it's high forward speed and jump capability.

Yeah the top speed potential comes from the high max engine (385) vs most heavies and having class 2 jumjets. That's a combo that can out dance Orions, most Caraphracts (except 3D), Thunderbolts (except 9SE), Jagermechs and some Catapults (K2/ Jester), unbalanced or design?

Its somehow like Quickdraws can probably out dance some mediums like most Kintaros (espacially GoldenBoy), Trebuchets (except 5J and 7M), Hunchbacks and Centurions (except D and Yen-Lo Wang) for the very same reasons. Now if that's unbalanced (and that's debatable), you probably gonna want to fix it by lowering the max engine a bit by around 15/20 (not been done yet on any chassis that I know of) and tweaking the jump jet thrust (like they did in the march 4th patch).

With all that said and the numbers comparison posted before, I strongly believe that, after tweaking jumpjets turning speed (which affected Highlanders and Victors agility the most), if they felt it still wasn't where they wanted it to be, they should've lowered the max engine speed of the Victor to 365 and if still not enough yet, then lower it again next patch to 355 until it feels right, instead of messing up with torso and arm speed that were relatively in line and proportional with other mechs like.

Here's the Jump jet chages from the March 4th patch notes for those who don't remember:

• Jump Jet Fixes and Updates:
  
  • Jump Jets will now have slower turning rates based on the class of Jump Jets equipped and the 'Mech's base turning speed.
    
  • Heavies and Assaults will notice this the most as they will not be able to snap turn as fast as they used to.
    
  • Medium 'Mechs will barely notice the change.
    
  • Light 'Mechs will not notice any change.
• There is now a significant difference between bringing full Jump Jets and 1 Jump Jet and there is a linear scale to them based on the number equipped to the 'Mech.
  
• The issue of 1 Jump Jet providing nearly the same amount of thrust as 3 Jump Jets is no longer the case.

Edited by Ancih, 06 April 2014 - 09:43 AM.

[Maggiman]

Nerfed the wrong way? Definitely...
Nerfed too much? Maybe...
Opening up the 1000th Viktor nerf thread and crying about your bought piece of software being altered in a half finished game? Jesus...

[Ancih]

Maggiman, on 06 April 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Nerfed the wrong way? Definitely...
Nerfed too much? Maybe...
Opening up the 1000th Viktor nerf thread and crying about your bought piece of software being altered in a half finished game? Jesus...

Are you suggesting that we should stay silent and not provide constructive feedback everytime we notice something wrong with the game?? this isn't a crying thread (well mostly tears free, you know its not up there to "Johnson's baby shampoo" level but hey I can't control if some people prefer to complaint with cries and tears). I think most interventions were rational and good intentioned constructive feeback and I really don't understand where you are coming from.

[Mavairo]

xe N on, on 06 April 2014 - 09:10 AM, said:

For moving at 80 kph you need minimum a XL 350. Jagermech, Cataphract and the K2 can carry the same or even better layout then any Victor, but have a smaller silhouette and don't need such an big engine to move fast. Beside, their arm movement and torso twist speed now is much better then the Victors.

Victor still lack in every aspect.

Not really. It's not terribly difficult to build a quick victor that still has decent cooling, and 80kph speed. AND it will still have jump jets afterwards.
2 LL, 1 PPC, 1 AC10 is a fair bit of punch.
Or 2 PPCs, 1 AC10 and a ML.
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...d3eb6056f34655a

You aren't going to be building a Kitty cat or Cataphract with that kind of mobility and firepower and still have cooling. -maybe- a kitty cat. But definitely not a Cataphract without going XL, and becoming a Death Trap in the process.

Case in point Kitty Cat
http://mwo.smurfy-ne...eccf01d9cc9531f

It's both slower AND hotter. And not as armored, AND lacks JJs. So... what exactly is the K2 winning at? It's a heavy sure. But it's slower, hotter, not as armored, and lacks Lateral travel with it's Cannons.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 April 2014 - 09:59 AM.