347 replies to this topic

[Mavairo]

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2014 - 03:13 PM, said:

And there are more than a few of us making reasoned posts, based on straight numbers - the only thing that matters.




What does that have to do with the Victor's turn rate?

Exactly Zero.

If you want to go make threads how they need their hitboxes shaved down again, be my guest. I'll be in that thread to support you.


Using another poorly designed example to justify a nerf on a completely different mech that doesn't even solve the root problem (which is actually convergence, and not Poptarting, or Victors, or Highlanders or AC 5s or PPCs) that is irrational, is just hollow and without real merit or value.





Seems like you are having trouble with Plain English yourself.

Torso Pitch
Torso Yaw
Arm Turn Speed

http://bit.ly/1q2vBgs.

That's what most of us are focused on in this thread.

That's what the data points support.

The Awesome and Battleturd aren't paragons of agility by any means. Before this nerf the Victor turned like it was a Medium mech.

They are in the same tonnage range as the Victor. I would have thought the comparison and the reasons for them being there would be bloody obvious.

My mistake.

People saying "zomg they suck now worse than a battlemaster!" Seriously, I was even posting back and forth with someone.

I wasn't even the one that brought up the original comparison.

Context chump.

Edited by Mavairo, 06 April 2014 - 03:22 PM.

[Ultimax]

Mavairo, on 06 April 2014 - 03:20 PM, said:

Before this nerf the Victor turned like it was a Medium mech.

Except it didn't.

That's the same hyperbole that isn't true, wasn't true, and was debunked several times in this thread already.


Try and keep up.

[XX Sulla XX]

I know many times I was faster and turned faster than a medium but it was because they chose to put a tiny engine it.

[Veranova]

I like it. Big 'mechs should be the slowest 'mechs.
I feel big, and my Dragon Slayer feels powerful now.

[XX Sulla XX]

No its an 80 ton and should be proportional. Its not an Atlas its closer heavy. And no it does not feel powerful it feels slow

[Ultimax]

Veranova, on 06 April 2014 - 04:24 PM, said:

I like it. Big 'mechs should be the slowest 'mechs.
I feel big, and my Dragon Slayer feels powerful now.

Bigger mechs shouldn't be as agile as mech's that weigh less.

http://bit.ly/1q2vBgs.


So, using an equal engine the Victor should not be less agile than the Battle Master, Stalker or Banshee - since they are bigger mechs.

[Khobai]

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So, using an equal engine the Victor should not be less agile than the Battle Master, Stalker or Banshee - since they are bigger mechs.

Its not less agile it has jumpjets. Yes its torso twist and arm speed might be worse. But the advantage of jumpjets still makes it far more agile than any of those mechs.

Victor also still goes 78kph with a 350XL. They really need to cap the max speed of assaults at around 70kph. Assaults like the Victor going as fast as heavies just makes heavies like the Thunderbolt less useful. Assaults in general need to go slower, turn slower, and they need more damage reduction to make them better tanks.

I personally think assaults should lose speed tweak and get something like armor tweak instead that gives them innate damage reduction.

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2014 - 05:52 PM.

[Nauht]

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Its not less agile it has jumpjets. Yes its torso twist and arm speed might be worse. But the advantage of jumpjets still makes it far more agile than any of those mechs.

Not agile seeing as they nerfed JJ one patch prior to the Victor nerf. For assaults you'd probably turn the same if not quicker without JJ. If they kept JJ the same then I'd agree with you.

JJ made them more versatile but not agile at all. In fact JJ still operate the same for poptarders as all they do is go up instead of using them for agility based brawling.

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

Its not less agile it has jumpjets.

Being able to hop over rocks does not make you agile. Turning is what makes you agile. Or turning and jumping.

Quote

Not agile seeing as they nerfed JJ one patch prior to the Victor nerf. For assaults you'd probably turn the same if not quicker without JJ. If they kept JJ the same then I'd agree with you.

Exactly turning speed in the air is slower than on the ground now by a good margin. 30% I think.

[Khobai]

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Being able to hop over rocks does not make you agile.

I completely disagree. Especially on a map like canyon. Being able to hop over rocks definitely makes you more agile because you can navigate the terrain better.

[Nauht]

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

I completely disagree. Especially on a map like canyon. Being able to hop over rocks definitely makes you more agile because you can navigate the terrain better.

If you want to look at one dimension, going up, to bolster your argument then ok.

But that kind of proves the point that these nerfs did nothing to combat poptarders, as all they do is go up, and only penalised brawlers.

[Khobai]

Quote

But that kind of proves the point that these nerfs did nothing to combat poptarders, as all they do is go up, and only penalised brawlers.

I agree the nerfs did very little to combat poptarters. But I also think the victor was too agile regardless of poptarting. It moved like a medium mech prior to the nerfs. Now it moves like a heavy.

[Nauht]

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 06:16 PM, said:

I agree the nerfs did very little to combat poptarters. But I also think the victor was too agile regardless of poptarting. It moved like a medium mech prior to the nerfs. Now it moves like a heavy.

Sigh.. please go through some of the posts in this very thread with people debunking this myth with hard data before saying that again.

If you want to come across as credible and have a decent discussion then you can at least do the research or read it.
Otherwise you're just coming across as loud noise with nothing to back it up, which, from me at least, doesn't merit replying to anymore.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Its not less agile it has jumpjets. Yes its torso twist and arm speed might be worse. But the advantage of jumpjets still makes it far more agile than any of those mechs.

It doesn't have jumpjets, it can fit jumpjets.

Jumpjets cost tonnage, they take up slots.

They are an advantage, if they are not balanced due to their advantage then you balance the jumpjets - you don't nerf the torso yaw and pitch of the chassis.

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

Victor also still goes 78kph with a 350XL.

A Victor that travels at 78kph has sacrificed 22 tons for it's XL engine.
My Cataphract with 300xl goes 76.4 for only 15.5 tons.

6.5 tons for the same speed, 2 mechs that are 10 tons apart.

So nearly 65% of the tonnage advantage has been spent on Engine.

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 05:42 PM, said:

They really need to cap the max speed of assaults at around 70kph. Assaults like the Victor going as fast as heavies just makes heavies like the Thunderbolt less useful. Assaults in general need to go slower, turn slower, and they need more damage reduction to make them better tanks.

I personally think assaults should lose speed tweak and get something like armor tweak instead that gives them innate damage reduction.

"Heavies" is a broad category.

Heavies includes the Orion, only 5 tons light than the Victor.

There is more difference between an Orion and a Catapult in tonnage than there is between a Victor and an Orion.

There is more difference between an Atlas and a Victor than there is between an Orion and a Victor.

So saying "heavies" and "assaults" is an incomplete statement. It's a fairly arbitrary line.



If Assaults got massively higher damage reduction, I'd be more prone to your suggestions.

Because being an even slower, easy to hit, high priority target is a bad combination.

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 05:53 PM, said:

I completely disagree. Especially on a map like canyon. Being able to hop over rocks definitely makes you more agile because you can navigate the terrain better.

That's basic mobility, I think most of us are describing the agility you want in a brawl and 1 jumpjet no longer grants that mobility.

Which is fine, that was a good nerf. Now if you want that mobility you pay the price in tonnage and slots.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2014 - 06:36 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Sigh.. please go through some of the posts in this very thread with people debunking this myth with hard data before saying that again.

No one debunked anything. The chart that was posted only compared a prenerf Victor with a 300 engine. I used to run a 350 engine in my prenerf Victor and it was every bit as maneuverable as most mediums.

Quote

A Victor that travels at 78kph has sacrificed 22 tons for it's XL engine.

Yes but its also 80 tons so it has 10 more tons to spare. And with endosteel you hit the critical slot limit before the tonnage limit so you always have spare tonnage to sink into the engine with the Victor. Youre really not sacrificing anything to get a Victor upto 78kph... speed is life in MWO so going as fast as you can isnt a sacrifice but rather a necessity.

Edited by Khobai, 06 April 2014 - 06:55 PM.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

No one debunked anything. The chart that was posted only compared a prenerf Victor with a 300 engine. I used to run a 350 engine in my prenerf Victor and it was every bit as maneuverable as most mediums.

Go to smurfy's, and use the torso speed/pitch/yaw tool available.

300xl for the Shadowhawk 2D2 (no skills):

Torso Yaw (twisting) = 136 degrees per second.


385xl (on the excel sheet, calculation credit to Ancih) for the Pre-nerf Victor (no skills):

Torso Yaw (twisting) = 96 degrees per second.

Current Victor:

Torso Yaw (twisting) = 77 degrees per second.



Is that engine difference big enough for you? A 385 will make your Victor fast, but with poor firepower.



Unless you have some calculations to contest this, then I'll continue to consider this assertion as wrong and part of the echo-chamber that is basically pushing hyperbole as if it were fact.



I think many people forget that the JJ change has nerfed the ability for assaults to do 180s in mid-air and this is where most people probably get their "as agile as most mediums" hyperbole from.

If you can prove me wrong, I'm happy to concede the point - but so far no one has anything but anecdotes and hyperbole.

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

Yes but its also 80 tons so it has 10 more tons to spare. And with endosteel you hit the critical slot limit before the tonnage limit so you always have spare tonnage to sink into the engine with the Victor. Youre really not sacrificing anything to get a Victor upto 78kph... speed is life in MWO so going as fast as you can isnt a sacrifice but rather a necessity.

Already covered this, you missed it.

It's not 10 tons to spare, it's 3.5 tons. The rest is taken up by the engine and my IM and 3D have their ballistic hardpoints spread out over the mech, not lumped in a single arm.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 06 April 2014 - 07:25 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

I have yet to see numbers showing the Victor being as maneuverable as a medium. Please show them or that statement means nothing, and outrageous statements like that don't contribute to the argument.

Jump jets help you get over terrain yes, but you sacrifice tonnage and slots to use them, AND they slow your turn speed while in the air. Not good justification for the HUGE reduction in torso twist speed. I can't believe people are still arguing the Victor should torso twist the same speed as an Atlas and Highlander, given the same engine. That is the end all argument IMHO.

Give it the HGN treatment if you must, -10% is acceptable and makes sense to balance out the JJ, but come on, the Victor should twist quicker than Atlases and Highlanders with comparable engines.

[Jeffrey Wilder]

To be fair, the current state of Victor is still OK.

It's far better than the rest of the assaults if you ask me even with the nerf.

Try piloting an awesome, stalker, highlander or any assaults and you'll find that the Victor is still one of the best. In my humble opinion, still the best in fact.

[Gas Guzzler]

Jeffrey Wilder, on 06 April 2014 - 07:52 PM, said:

To be fair, the current state of Victor is still OK.

It's far better than the rest of the assaults if you ask me even with the nerf.

Try piloting an awesome, stalker, highlander or any assaults and you'll find that the Victor is still one of the best. In my humble opinion, still the best in fact.

This is largely subjective. I've found my Highlanders to be more effective as they can take more damage. They can also mount LRMs much more effectively. I haven't driven my BLRs in a while so I'm not sure about those. Highlander has more armor and more tons, and can jump higher. The Victor has speed and pre-nerf had more agility in the categories being highlighted in this thread. SO: If you would rather have more armor, more weapons and/or jump higher, the Highlander is better, if you like to run 80 kph then the Victor is better. Since 80 kph is hardly enough to make someone miss, ill take more weapons, armor and hops.

The Victor is okay, of course good players can be effective with it, just like they can be effective with an Awesome

[XX Sulla XX]

Quote

To be fair, the current state of Victor is still OK.

It's far better than the rest of the assaults if you ask me even with the nerf.

Try piloting an awesome, stalker, highlander or any assaults and you'll find that the Victor is still one of the best. In my humble opinion, still the best in fact.

How effective they are now compared to before has mostly to do with your play style and skill. Just like an Awsome can be effective for some pilots and some roles.

Edited by XX Sulla XX, 06 April 2014 - 08:28 PM.