347 replies to this topic

[Nauht]

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

No one debunked anything. The chart that was posted only compared a prenerf Victor with a 300 engine. I used to run a 350 engine in my prenerf Victor and it was every bit as maneuverable as most mediums.



Yes but its also 80 tons so it has 10 more tons to spare. And with endosteel you hit the critical slot limit before the tonnage limit so you always have spare tonnage to sink into the engine with the Victor. Youre really not sacrificing anything to get a Victor upto 78kph... speed is life in MWO so going as fast as you can isnt a sacrifice but rather a necessity.

Yeah I'm done responding to you. Obvious you're one of the anecdotal crowd.

[Cyborne Elemental]

The speed nerf didn't hurt this mech's ability in sniping/poptarting at all with the current meta.
Jumpjets did alot more than this speed nerf as far as hurting its ability to repeat strike whackamole poptart.

What it did do, is make its ability as a brawler much diminished, and the use of standard engines pointless.

Not everyone played the Vic's as dual-PPC/AC/Gauss snipers, but now its the only way to survive in it.

The 9S and 9B variants have very tight arc's left and right for the arms, and those are the 2 which have the proper hardpoints to support brawling.

Only the DS and 9K now have any advantage to cover their CT in a brawl as they have sufficient arm movement to do so, and one of them is lacking in hardpoints for missle and ballistics, and the other is only available with MC which you have to spend $$ on.

Either way you look at it, PGI took one of the most versatile Assault mechs, and turned it into an underpowered Atlas with equal maneuverability.

PGI just keeps working around the problem instead of actually facing the reality, that being that AC's/Gauss and PPC's in combination are overpowered, in both precision, DPS, DPH, and in their ability to snapshot instant damage with minimal exposure required by the pilot to deliver that damage.

Until PGI accepts that PPC's and AC's need to work differently for the sake of gameplay, we'll continue to see an endless supply of unwarranted and unnecessary nerfs which still do not solve the problems, but just create new ones.

[Ultimax]

Since several posters keep going on about engine sizes...

Tonnage	80	80	85	85	95	95	100	100
Mech	Victor 9S	Awesome 8Q	Stalker 3F	Battlemaster 1D	Banshee 3E	Banshee 3E	Atlas DDC	Atlas DDC
Engine	350	300	310	325	325	350	325	350
Torso Yaw SPD (twisting)	70°/s	82°/s	72°/s	76°/s	68°/s	73°/s	65°/s	70°/s

Victor with 350 vs. Awesome with 300?
= Winner Awesome by 12°/s

Victor with 350 vs. Stalker with 310?
= Winner Stalker by 2°/s

Victor with 350 vs. Battlemaster with 325?
= Winner Battlemaster by 6°/s

Victor with 350 vs. Banshee with 325?
= Winner Victor by 2°/s

Victor with 350 vs. Banshee with 350?
= Winner Banshee by 3°/s (lol)

Victor with 350 vs. Atlas with 325?
= Winner Victor by 5°/s

Victor with 350 vs. Atlas with 350?
= Tied


Congrats Victor, you have better twisting speed than the Banshee and Atlas if they use smaller engines than you.


But don't take my word for it, this is what smurfy's says.



Fun Facts:

The difference between an XL 350 and a STD 350 = 14.5 Tons.


The difference between an Atlas and a Victor = 20 tons.


So before you say that a 350xl in a Victor vs. 350 STD in an Atlas is an unfair comparison, both of those matchups leave the Atlas with equal to or greater tonnage left over.

Even if we max both of their armor, it's basically a tie.


Setting that part aside, how can anyone look at the Engine sizes for the Awesome, Stalker & Battlemaster and not see that the Victor was pushed out of line with how Engine vs. Tonnage are used to calculate Twisting speed?





And lastly, 350 is an unnecessary engine size for a 2x AC 5, 2x PPC Victor build, the one that poptarts and basically remains unscathed after several nerfs that have failed to address the core issues and instead do damage to other build options, like Mid/Short range (Brawlers).

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 April 2014 - 05:50 AM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimatum X, on 07 April 2014 - 05:42 AM, said:

And lastly, 350 is an unnecessary engine size for a 2x AC 5, 2x PPC Victor build, the one that poptarts and basically remains unscathed after several nerfs that have failed to address the core issues and instead do damage to other build options, like Mid/Short range (Brawlers).

This. In order do those builds you really need to go XL 325/330.

[oldradagast]

Mister D, on 07 April 2014 - 03:54 AM, said:

The speed nerf didn't hurt this mech's ability in sniping/poptarting at all with the current meta.
Jumpjets did alot more than this speed nerf as far as hurting its ability to repeat strike whackamole poptart.

What it did do, is make its ability as a brawler much diminished, and the use of standard engines pointless.

Not everyone played the Vic's as dual-PPC/AC/Gauss snipers, but now its the only way to survive in it.

The 9S and 9B variants have very tight arc's left and right for the arms, and those are the 2 which have the proper hardpoints to support brawling.

Only the DS and 9K now have any advantage to cover their CT in a brawl as they have sufficient arm movement to do so, and one of them is lacking in hardpoints for missle and ballistics, and the other is only available with MC which you have to spend $$ on.

Either way you look at it, PGI took one of the most versatile Assault mechs, and turned it into an underpowered Atlas with equal maneuverability.

PGI just keeps working around the problem instead of actually facing the reality, that being that AC's/Gauss and PPC's in combination are overpowered, in both precision, DPS, DPH, and in their ability to snapshot instant damage with minimal exposure required by the pilot to deliver that damage.

Until PGI accepts that PPC's and AC's need to work differently for the sake of gameplay, we'll continue to see an endless supply of unwarranted and unnecessary nerfs which still do not solve the problems, but just create new ones.

And it sounds like nerfing the mobility of all heavier mechs is on the table, which is equally idiotic. This will reduce assaults - and maybe even some heavies, depending upon how far this goes - to nothing but turrets or pop-tarts. You simply won't be able to brawl with them because they are too slow for their size and won't be able to spread damage or track faster targets. Just more bungling, heavy-handed changes that will continue to suck the fun out of the game. I'm not saying assaults should be agile, but that still makes more sense than "oops, your now-sluggish assault mech can't even track that light that's near you - too bad, time to die!' which seems to be the newly established path with more changes threatened. Of course, they'll probably defend this with some idiotic "teamwork" assumption, even though in PUG's teamwork is non-existent and leaving the assault mechs hanging and alone is already an established tactic. Ugh... With this, the Clans, and 3-3-3-3 coming up, I have a bad feeling nearly every mech I've bought will somehow be rendered useless in the next few months.

[DeathlyEyes]

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

No one debunked anything. The chart that was posted only compared a prenerf Victor with a 300 engine. I used to run a 350 engine in my prenerf Victor and it was every bit as maneuverable as most mediums.

Yeah and you did so at what cost. You had to sacrafice tonnage and surviveability. Using your logic I can put large engines in any heavy mech and a small engine in any light mech and make them roughly equal. It's not my fault that a lighter mech is taking a small engine because i value maneuverability more than him. This game is all about trade offs. engine size per engine size comparisons are the only ones that should be valid. Mech's maneuverabiltiy should be a function of chassis size and engine size. Not some random arbitrary bullshit because one mech "can mount" jump jets.

Using your logic please explain to me what to do I really would like to know. All you are going to do is end up having to decrease maneuverability of all the assaults many of which like the Atlas are borderline useless already because of the terrain movement penalties and then break the game further.

[Khobai]

Quote

You had to sacrafice tonnage and surviveability.

again not really. its common practice to put an XL in a victor so youre not sacrificing survivability. and youre not really sacrificing tonnage either because not only are you using XL but youre also using endosteel and when you take endosteel you run out of crit slots before you run out of tonnage so the extra tonnage HAS to go to the engine, because it cant go anywhere else.

plus you can make the argument that speed IS survivability. A victor that goes 78kph can get out of bad situations better than a victor that goes 65-70kph. That extra 8-12kph makes a huge difference in being able to outrun other assaults and even slow heavies. A STD engine might help you survive longer if you get pinned down but an XL engine will help prevent you from getting pinned in the first place.

Edited by Khobai, 07 April 2014 - 03:30 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Khobai, on 07 April 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

again not really. its common practice to put an XL in a victor so youre not sacrificing survivability. and youre not sacrificing tonnage either because not only are you using XL but youre also using endosteel and when you take endosteel you run out of crit slots before you run out of tonnage so the extra tonnage HAS to go to the engine, cant go anywhere else.

How do you suggest fixing this? Leaving the victor in its current state, as maneuverable as an Atlas isn't an option. I really want to hear your solution. Not to mention all the builds this change has broken that weren't identical to yours in particular. Not everyone plays the Victor like you. Not to mention your same argument can be applied to the Shadowhawk. I run 3 AC2s and the only place for my weight to go is into the engine which I put into an XL 300 which is still more agile than a Victor with a large XL.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 07 April 2014 - 03:21 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

How do you suggest fixing this?

Id fix it through the skill tree. give all weight classes their own skill tree. remove speed tweak and anchor turn from assaults. and give assaults damage reduction skills instead.

Quote

How do you suggest fixing this? Leaving the victor in its current state, as maneuverable as an Atlas isn't an option

The Victor is still way more maneuverable than an Atlas im not sure what you mean.

Quote

Not to mention your same argument can be applied to the Shadowhawk

True but the shadowhawk is an exception. most mediums dont come close to the shadowhawk. when I meant the victor was as maneuverable as most mediums I was referering more to average mediums like the hunchback. The prenerf victor with a 350 engine was comparable to a hunchback with a 250 engine for turning. Now the victor turns more like a heavy.

Edited by Khobai, 07 April 2014 - 03:31 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Khobai, on 07 April 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

Id fix it through the skill tree. give all weight classes their own skill tree. remove speed tweak and anchor turn from assaults. and give assaults damage reduction skills instead.

No one is going to use a mech that can't get into and out of cover. It's why in the high ELOs the Atlas and Banshee are useless. Turning this game into a giant linear combat simulator will just kill off a huge section of the community as well. I don't really see what the problem was with Victors. They were never as maneuverable as mediums unless you compared it to a medium running a really small engine to a Victor running a huge engine.

[Gas Guzzler]

Khobai, on 06 April 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

No one debunked anything. The chart that was posted only compared a prenerf Victor with a 300 engine. I used to run a 350 engine in my prenerf Victor and it was every bit as maneuverable as most mediums.

Please re-read the following post until the fact that the Victor is not as agile as mediums "sinks in". A Shadow Hawk goes 97.2 kph I believe with an XL 300 and speed tweak. Victor with an XL 385 goes 85.8 kph with speed tweak.

Ultimatum X, on 06 April 2014 - 07:22 PM, said:

Go to smurfy's, and use the torso speed/pitch/yaw tool available.

300xl for the Shadowhawk 2D2 (no skills):

Torso Yaw (twisting) = 136 degrees per second.


385xl (on the excel sheet, calculation credit to Ancih) for the Pre-nerf Victor (no skills):

Torso Yaw (twisting) = 96 degrees per second.

Current Victor:

Torso Yaw (twisting) = 77 degrees per second.



Is that engine difference big enough for you? A 385 will make your Victor fast, but with poor firepower.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 01 April 2014 - 04:46 PM, said:

<snip>
Furthermore they altered a product I purchased with money, not in game currency but my actual money.
<super snip>

Oh weird they altered s somehow?

I'm helping!

[DeathlyEyes]

Rizzelbizzeg, on 07 April 2014 - 03:32 PM, said:

Oh weird they altered s somehow?

I'm helping!

The Dragon Slayer is purchasable with MC only. By transitive property I paid real money for my Dragon Slayer. Now they lost a customer by altering a product and I will no longer be making purchases. They likely lost countless others as well.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 07 April 2014 - 03:35 PM.

[Ultimax]

Khobai, on 07 April 2014 - 03:17 PM, said:

again not really. its common practice to put an XL in a victor so youre not sacrificing survivability.

Common practice means that most good players do in fact realize you probably have an XL.

XL = lower survivability, good hitboxes or not. It can be exploited by a smart opponent.

Khobai, on 07 April 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

The Victor is still way more maneuverable than an Atlas im not sure what you mean.

They mean this:

Tonnage	80	80	85	85	95	95	100	100
Mech	Victor 9S	Awesome 8Q	Stalker 3F	Battlemaster 1D	Banshee 3E	Banshee 3E	Atlas DDC	Atlas DDC
Engine	350	300	310	325	325	350	325	350
Torso Yaw SPD (twisting)	70°/s	82°/s	72°/s	76°/s	68°/s	73°/s	65°/s	70°/s

Khobai, on 07 April 2014 - 03:23 PM, said:

True but the shadowhawk is an exception. most mediums dont come close to the shadowhawk. when I meant the victor was as maneuverable as most mediums I was referering more to average mediums like the hunchback. The prenerf victor with a 350 engine was comparable to a hunchback with a 250 engine for turning. Now the victor turns more like a heavy.

Pre-nerf Victor 385 XL (Elite)
Torso Yaw Speed = 96°/s
Torso Pitch Speed = 54°/s
Arm Speed = 216°/s


Hunchback 250 (Elite)
Torso Yaw Speed = 137°/s
Torso Pitch Speed = 61°/s
Arm Speed = 225°/s



Post data, because you are becoming less credible each time you post "as manueverable as an X".


Torso Yaw Speed = Twisting, one of the main things we are focused on in this thread.

Edited by Ultimatum X, 07 April 2014 - 04:06 PM.

[Gas Guzzler]

Ultimatum X, on 07 April 2014 - 04:04 PM, said:

Post data, because you are becoming less credible each time you post "as manueverable as an X".

Khobai, with all the numbers we have been throwing out there, you must respond with numbers to back up your claims, otherwise there is no meat behind what you are saying. Also, note that we are primarily arguing torso twist speed, not turning speed.

[Rizzelbizzeg]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 07 April 2014 - 03:34 PM, said:

The Dragon Slayer is purchasable with MC only. By transitive property I paid real money for my Dragon Slayer. Now they lost a customer by altering a product and I will no longer be making purchases. They likely lost countless others as well.

Bummer man, sorry to see you go

[DeathlyEyes]

Rizzelbizzeg, on 07 April 2014 - 04:39 PM, said:

Bummer man, sorry to see you go

I did put the game down but I will still play it, just not handing more money over to PGI. I care about the game and want to see it succeed. That's why I voice my opinion, because I know many others do too. No one pointed this fact out until I did, and now that I did many other people have realized what happened and are speaking out. I think everyone is afraid of getting yelled at for QQing about changes despite the complaints being valid. The numbers i posted are scary.

[Ultimax]

SLDF DeathlyEyes, on 07 April 2014 - 05:01 PM, said:

I did put the game down but I will still play it, just not handing more money over to PGI. I care about the game and want to see it succeed. That's why I voice my opinion, because I know many others do too. No one pointed this fact out until I did, and now that I did many other people have realized what happened and are speaking out. I think everyone is afraid of getting yelled at for QQing about changes despite the complaints being valid. The numbers i posted are scary.

Yep, and we need to just keep posting about it and bugging them on twitter.


Patience and persistence.

[DeathlyEyes]

Ultimatum X, on 07 April 2014 - 07:10 PM, said:

Yep, and we need to just keep posting about it and bugging them on twitter.


Patience and persistence.

It's hard to maintain patience when it seems the Devs even ignore a thread pointing out an obvious problem with hard numbers after it's reached thousands of views and hundreds of replies.

[XX Sulla XX]

Any news on twitter on this yet?