624 replies to this topic

[Void Angel]

Including one that simply contains LRMs instead of being wastefully focused on them.

[CarnageINC]

I liked your first versions of both your responses tbh. You seem to be a master editor of your comments and I see that you just want to dramatize your comments to make me look bad .

I just want you to know that I'm not trying to attack you personally or your ideas, and it did not come across that way in my first post. I should of started with something about there are other reasons for a DDC to 'boat' LRM's. But I failed to do so, my apologies if you feel that I 'yelled' at you. My initial reaction was just that, a reaction and i did not put much thought into my opening.

So I will withdraw from your plea thread since I really don't want to get into p---ing contest with you, believe it or not I like what you contribute to the community.

Edited by CarnageINC, 12 May 2014 - 08:55 PM.

[Lunaya]

When I see the DDC missle boats without the ECM I laugh, that is in my own opinion and the 4th module slot mastered biggest reason for the DDC, I am okay with having some missile for range, but Dedicated LRM Atlai bug me, most I have seen do not even pull over 200-300 damage when in my C1 or C4 Cats I can pull 700+ fairly regularly.

[IraqiWalker]

CarnageINC, on 12 May 2014 - 07:46 PM, said:

So look past my defensive first paragraph and actually read what was written. I'm not saying what you have said is wrong. Actually most of it is true, but you left out something I though should of been thought of. Is an Atlas optimal for the roll I have described...not really, the Raven/Cicada is much better fit. But the difficultly of destroying an Atlas is made even more difficult when its not easy to reach. Therefore the ECM it provides benefits the team longer. I just think using the LRM's is a way to still be combat effective. Standing off is not the whole purpose of the LRM's.

Long time no see Carnage. I might not be understanding you completely, but are you talking about LRMs on Atlai in general, or LRM boat Atlai? This thread is specifically against LRM only atlas mechs (or ones with LRMs plus one token weapon)

[CarnageINC]

IraqiWalker, on 12 May 2014 - 08:55 PM, said:

Long time no see Carnage. I might not be understanding you completely, but are you talking about LRMs on Atlai in general, or LRM boat Atlai? This thread is specifically against LRM only atlas mechs (or ones with LRMs plus one token weapon)

Hey Iraqi! Well I guess if you consider carrying 2 LRM-15's a boat then yes I'm guilty of doing that. I use 2 Large Lasers to back them up. But I'm not talking about staying so far behind your not providing ECM for the team, nor am I talking about hiding in general to rack up kills or damage. I have stated that this is not the most optimal mech but there is a reason that I do it and I have stated that.

I'm not afraid to tank with my DDC when it needs to be done, its just that I feel I can not maximize it to its full potential when I do use it. So I listed my reasons for doing so. When I do use my DDC I use my LL's to contribute to the fight, not just LRM's. My whole intention is to provide long lasting ECM cover while trying to be as combat effective as I can. My personal opinion is not for all DDC's to do this, they are better off doing what Void Angel has in mind for them.

However since I had a founders Atlas I needed to master and found that my play style didn't carry over well for the Atlas I came up with this build. To be as effective as I could be on those rare occasions I do use one, this works best for me and I feel the way I use my DDC best benefits the team as a whole.

[Zuesacoatl]

Get over it, let people play the way they want to play. For some, that is raining missiles down on others from afar, get over it, stop being a fun-{Godwin's Law} and let people play. I have seen many D-DCs play effective with lurms and ECM. Sometimes the most effective pilot and build are the ones that combine to form a smile on the players face.

[Void Angel]

CarnageINC, on 12 May 2014 - 09:15 PM, said:

Hey Iraqi! Well I guess if you consider carrying 2 LRM-15's a boat then yes I'm guilty of doing that. I use 2 Large Lasers to back them up.

Nope! Not the subject of this thread. Also, I'm impressed - if you're referring to the post I think you are, the unedited version was up for about 15 seconds - I'd misread something, reading too fast. Something I normally avoid. Mostly my posts are edited for composition, spelling, and flow, and never to twist someone's response around. If I'm adding something in response to a comment, I'll note that. As for drama? Eh, I try to use creative writing techniques to grab attention, but my posts aren't really designed to provoke responses; it just kinda happens. Like that one guy in my "Timidity" thread that started maundering on about Sun Tzu - and misquoting him...

Zuesacoatl, on 12 May 2014 - 09:27 PM, said:

Get over it, let people play the way they want to play.

Guides forum. Guidesforumguidesforumguidesforum. Guides. Forum. If you don't like people telling other people "how to play," keep out of this section of the forums - that's what it's here for - and have some moral integrity: let people post what they want to post. Same principle.

Edited by Void Angel, 12 May 2014 - 11:02 PM.

[Grimmrog]

Why not? people may just like to have one of their Atlas as a LRM Boat.

I am using the catapharact 2X with 30 LRM Artemis. and tag on the right arm. It does have a similar trouble with low shooting points and low tubes. But it is made for the diversity and for the fun. It also still works kinda. Even if it's not the most efficient laodout. Playing the game for just performance gets so annoying and monoton. Stop tryharding and start having fun.

[Cimarb]

Void Angel, on 12 May 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

Cimarb, just think how well you'd do with a good LRM build! =) The game mechanics that make the Atlas a bad 'mech to boat LRMs with aren't changed by signature graphics - no matter how dizzingly fast they cycle.

Yeah, the forums seem to have sped the animation up...bleh, stupid browsers and converters.

Honestly, though, I have tried the brawlers builds, and even sniper builds, which I am quite proficient at. I have mastered three Atlas chassis, none of which were done with LRMs. It doesn't work for me, unfortunately, while LRMs on the DDC do - it is designed as a command and information warfare mech, not a tank, and as soon as you wade into brawling range, you have effectively minimized your success in commanding AND information warfare, since you will be losing components and getting hit by PPCs and TAGs quite frequently at that point.

On a side note, I tried that PPC/LPL build on the Banshee, as well as the AC20/ML boat version, and they aren't bad builds. The PPC/LPL build is surprisingly heat efficient for that chassis, so I may try out PPCs on some other chassis as well. They were absolutely no match for NoSkillz and his meta-humper team, who I ran into on back-to-back solo drops last night (I was really surprised by how many of those teams I ran into last night... Guess it's the downside of teams being on the rise lately!) - I think I got a whopping 82 damage in the second match, but that's what I get for back pedaling on HPG...

[mogs01gt]

I just ran into one who had this setup with a std 360 engine...How could you do anything with this setup?
DDC
2 erll
2 lrm10+art and 1000 rounds
ams
ecm

[Nicholas Carlyle]

mogs01gt, on 13 May 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

I just ran into one who had this setup with a std 360 engine...How could you do anything with this setup?
DDC
2 erll
2 lrm10+art and 1000 rounds
ams
ecm

You can't, it's terrible.

[Cimarb]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 13 May 2014 - 06:45 AM, said:

You can't, it's terrible.

You CAN, if it fits your playstyle. I don't understand how anyone can get high scores with lights, but lots of people do it regularly every day.

[DarthPeanut]

Grimmrog, on 12 May 2014 - 11:18 PM, said:

Why not? people may just like to have one of their Atlas as a LRM Boat.

I am using the catapharact 2X with 30 LRM Artemis. and tag on the right arm. It does have a similar trouble with low shooting points and low tubes. But it is made for the diversity and for the fun. It also still works kinda. Even if it's not the most efficient laodout. Playing the game for just performance gets so annoying and monoton. Stop tryharding and start having fun.

Void Angel covered why not, almost any other platform can do boated LRMs better and not waste the weight.

I understand the whole having fun thing pretty well since I occasionally will throw together a cheese build to run. However sitting back in a 100 ton Atlas throwing LRMs it hardly for the fun factor. Let's call it what it is... people who have resorted to CBill farming in a 100 ton cause they lost the passion for piloting a challenging brawler platform.

No offense but pointing out that you use a 4 tube, bottom of the arm mounted launcher, 2X phract for LRM support is not helping me see the fun factor point you are trying to make. That sounds like anything but fun.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

mogs01gt, on 13 May 2014 - 06:20 AM, said:

I just ran into one who had this setup with a std 360 engine...How could you do anything with this setup?
DDC
2 erll
2 lrm10+art and 1000 rounds
ams
ecm

You can, but likely not as much as with a more reasonable engine size. I'd be inclined to supplant it with my 2 ERLL/3 LRM-15 Orion with AMS that moves 6 KPH faster- agility, smaller size, and much higher tube count I think would make up for lack of ECM pretty well. Could even swap the LRM-15s out for triple-LRM-10-Artemis and have three more tons to play with if so inclined. Alternately, take a smaller engine and use the tonnage for something else- Stepping that 360 down even as far as a 325 opens up nine and a half tons for equipment.


I'd like to make a major note here if I may-

It seems like a big part of the problem many posters have with the thread is that they think it's telling them not to run multiple LRM racks on their DDC. I'm not sure how this impression came across, but it would probably be a good idea to bold/largetext/italics/underline something in the first post explaining that having multiple LRM racks backed up by significant weaponry (such as the dual ERLL Atlas I quoted here) is not boating. While it's a rather anemic weapons load for an Atlas, it's just not a boat.

Cimarb is talking about a boat, because the overall range/damage output combination of his Atlas' non-LRM weapons is severely dwarfed by the LRM weapons and the tonnage is further dwarfed by the ammo load for the missile racks.

But a lot of these posts seem to be saying 'You're wrong, my Atlas with [insert LRM launcher count here] and [multiple high-value energy weapons and/or significant autocannon investment] works fine!' And these Atlases are not boats. Or, worse, they say 'You're right, this Atlas I saw with [insert LRM launcher count here] and [multiple high-value energy weapons and/or significant autocannon investment] is a terrible Atlas!' ....and again, these Atlases are not boats and far more likely to be having problems from improper or unskilled use by their pilots, not because of their loadout (or at least, not because the loadout is flat-out weak and more often because the pilot doesn't know how best to use the weapons load they've created, or a lumbering bulk of Atlas in the first place.)

Which is silly.

Cimarb, I'm curious- have you tried dropping some ammo in order to up the value of your backup direct-fire weapons on that missile-platform Atlas? And if you're using it as a back-liner (which it seems like you are), have you considered dropping some armor for the same (essentially emergency-value) weapons upgrades, since you're less likely to see chestbump facegrinding combat than most other Atlas pilots? You've indicated that you've tried other builds with your DDC, but I don't recall (having read over the whole thread, though admittedly it took a while so I may have failed to remember some posts) you explicitly laying out the builds you tried in comparison to the one you use now?

DarthPeanut, on 13 May 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

No offense but pointing out that you use a 4 tube, bottom of the arm mounted launcher, 2X phract for LRM support is not helping me see the fun factor point you are trying to make. That sounds like anything but fun.

...I use LRMs in mine for the function. 4 tubes is a very small missile spread chained relatively quickly- if fired into groups, it eats AMS ammo really hard, which opens things up to stronger LRM launchers, and when used against a light 'mech you don't wind up peppering the landscape with wasted missiles (at least not anywhere near as much). Small tube counts have their advantages too, you know, it's not a straight-up downgrade.

[DarthPeanut]

Cimarb, on 13 May 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

You CAN, if it fits your playstyle. I don't understand how anyone can get high scores with lights, but lots of people do it regularly every day.

There is nothing exclusive to a specific play style that only can be done with an LRM Atlas. You can do that build better in a number of other platforms. Why not do it better if you can.

Quickdraw Crobat, on 13 May 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

...I use LRMs in mine for the function. 4 tubes is a very small missile spread chained relatively quickly- if fired into groups, it eats AMS ammo really hard, which opens things up to stronger LRM launchers, and when used against a light 'mech you don't wind up peppering the landscape with wasted missiles (at least not anywhere near as much). Small tube counts have their advantages too, you know, it's not a straight-up downgrade.

LRM5s on any mech with better tube placement (which is most all of them) would do the same thing, many times better. I dare say it would be more fun for you as well.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 13 May 2014 - 07:26 AM.

[Cimarb]

DarthPeanut, on 13 May 2014 - 07:02 AM, said:

Void Angel covered why not, almost any other platform can do boated LRMs better and not waste the weight.

However sitting back in a 100 ton Atlas throwing LRMs it hardly for the fun factor. Let's call it what it is... people who have resorted to CBill farming in a 100 ton cause they lost the passion for piloting a challenging brawler platform.

I know it's easy to pick on people that you disagree with - even I fall for that myself sometimes - but you are saying that you are "better" than others because you prefer the brawling playstyle. You are also insinuating that there is another assault that can boat LRMs and still provide ECM coverage, which there simply is not.

If you prefer heavies/assaults and LRMs, but want to help your team with ECM coverage, there is no other option. In fact, there is not a single other mech that can boat 35 LRMs and provide ECM coverage (correct me if I missed one, but the only ECM-capable mechs with missile hardpoints are the RVN and COM, neither of which have tube counts as good as the Atlas).

I bring my assault missile boats to matches in "higher" Elo brackets all the time, and do well with them, including my DDC. I have the numbers to prove it (see the image a page or two back).

It's NOT the build that is bad, it's the pilots you guys have ran into.

[Tiamat of the Sea]

DarthPeanut, on 13 May 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

LRM5s on any mech with better tube placement (which is most all of them) would do the same thing, many times better. I dare say it would be more fun for you as well.

Except that by mounting a single LRM-15 in that slot, I get a number of volleys comparable to four LRM-5s (4-4-4-3), and the thing only has two missile hardpoints. Plus that LRM-15 weighs 7 tons to the 8 tons of four LRM-5s. (This gets crazier with Artemis if you like it for such small volleys, weighing 8 tons with Artemis to the quad-5's whopping 12 tons.) People running two LRM-15s in that arm are getting an even better deal on their rapidfire tiny missile volleys.

...plus, I'm not using the 2X exclusively for the LRMs, I should point out, it's just that that secondary weapon has proven more utilitarian than the SRM-6/ERLL combination I used to have in the 'secondary weapon' position on that 'mech.

Edited by Quickdraw Crobat, 13 May 2014 - 07:43 AM.

[TheDeckardCain]

Cimarb, on 13 May 2014 - 06:54 AM, said:

You CAN, if it fits your playstyle. I don't understand how anyone can get high scores with lights, but lots of people do it regularly every day.

Ummmmmmmmmmmmmm if this is your play style, then you need to look at playing a CN9-AL. This doesn't belong on an Atlas. The 360 STD, on a mech with this engagement range is worthless. He's only using that engine to get into place and rock back and worth like my lovely Granddad in his favorite rocking chair (You know those old classic ones, the creeking sound and all ). So much wasted tonnage.

THERE IS A THING AS A BAD BUILD. What is this?? Are we back to the days where we're giving everyone a trophy for competing? Here Jimmy have a trophy you did a good job in your dual Large Pulse Laser Jenner, even though you only did 30 damage and died after your heat ran over and shutdown. Let's people play how they want to play and stick fingers in our ears when it comes to an alternate opinion.

The locust, I'll use this as an example. The scores that you see posted can be attributed to pilot skill only. They know how to engage without attracting attention, they strike from the shadows and run before the enemy knew what hit him. Imagine if they were in a Jenner? Does this mean the Locust is better than a Jenner? Negative... The locust still sucks compared to the other mechs Just as an LRM Atlas is terrible compared to a Stalker. The stalker energy points are REALLY high on the mech, the Atlas I have to expose the entire mech to get the tag over the hill....

I like this thing for oh i'm giving ECM cover... there are other mechs that will be more suited for that role as well. The Atlas is just covering itself, as well as the other fatties that are in the group... Its not able to keep up with the faster mechs. The only thing you're doing with the ECM is preventing the dorito from automatically popping up, a scout will find you regardless, and preventing an alpha designation. There aren't that many lines of attack in most maps, especially pugging, we kinda know where everyone is doing, nothing is going to surprise us.


TL;DR - Your Lurm Atlas stinks


EDIT: Kudos to Void Angel for the Grace you've shown in your responses in this thread. I would have lost it on page 3.

Edited by TheDeckardCain, 13 May 2014 - 07:41 AM.

[Cimarb]

Quickdraw Crobat, on 13 May 2014 - 07:14 AM, said:

It seems like a big part of the problem many posters have with the thread is that they think it's telling them not to run multiple LRM racks on their DDC. I'm not sure how this impression came across, but it would probably be a good idea to bold/largetext/italics/underline something in the first post explaining that having multiple LRM racks backed up by significant weaponry (such as the dual ERLL Atlas I quoted here) is not boating. While it's a rather anemic weapons load for an Atlas, it's just not a boat.

Cimarb is talking about a boat, because the overall range/damage output combination of his Atlas' non-LRM weapons is severely dwarfed by the LRM weapons and the tonnage is further dwarfed by the ammo load for the missile racks.

[snip]....and more often because the pilot doesn't know how best to use the weapons load they've created, or a lumbering bulk of Atlas in the first place.)

Which is silly.

Cimarb, I'm curious- have you tried dropping some ammo in order to up the value of your backup direct-fire weapons on that missile-platform Atlas? And if you're using it as a back-liner (which it seems like you are), have you considered dropping some armor for the same (essentially emergency-value) weapons upgrades, since you're less likely to see chestbump facegrinding combat than most other Atlas pilots? You've indicated that you've tried other builds with your DDC, but I don't recall (having read over the whole thread, though admittedly it took a while so I may have failed to remember some posts) you explicitly laying out the builds you tried in comparison to the one you use now?

...I use LRMs in mine for the function. 4 tubes is a very small missile spread chained relatively quickly- if fired into groups, it eats AMS ammo really hard, which opens things up to stronger LRM launchers, and when used against a light 'mech you don't wind up peppering the landscape with wasted missiles (at least not anywhere near as much). Small tube counts have their advantages too, you know, it's not a straight-up downgrade.

Great post.

I agree about the OP revisions, as that is what brought me into the "discussion". Give me pointers, offer up better builds, but don't think you can tell me to stop doing something I enjoy and succeed with and not get a response back. If this guide had been made with a different tone (helpful instead of bossy), I wouldn't have stuck my nose in it.

My current DDC swapped the larger engine and MGs for a UAC5, and it's about as effective, though I haven't used it as much lately because I have been leveling up my Ilya and Banshees. I do listen to advice, and I appreciate Void giving it in some of his responses - I'm always willing to try different things (just depends on how the message is delivered).

I wouldn't drop the ammo down, as I only have just over 1000 missiles right now, and on this mech, I use them as much for suppression as I do actual damage. The DDC is all about controlling the fight - block their targeting, keep their heads down, and absorb damage if it comes to that. I also wouldn't drop my armor down much more, as I have had very few fights were I didn't need all that armor (contrary to popular belief, I don't sit 900m back from the fight for very long, as LRMs aren't very effective that far back). The engine is where I can make up some weight, as I had a STD340 originally. It's not quite as responsive with the smaller engine, but still works fine.

I have had all sorts of loadouts on my Atlai, but I don't have any screenshots of them since they weren't very successful. I mastered three variants with direct-fire weapons, though... I also mastered my three BLRs with torso mounted lasers, currently eliting my three Banshees the same way, etc., so it's not like I don't have experience with that playstyle - I just don't prefer it. I like my quick sniper heavies (Cataphract and Jäger) and assault LRM boats.

Your comments about the smaller tube count are spot on, and better said than I have previously.

[DarthPeanut]

Cimarb, on 13 May 2014 - 07:30 AM, said:

I know it's easy to pick on people that you disagree with - even I fall for that myself sometimes - but you are saying that you are "better" than others because you prefer the brawling playstyle. You are also insinuating that there is another assault that can boat LRMs and still provide ECM coverage, which there simply is not.

If you prefer heavies/assaults and LRMs, but want to help your team with ECM coverage, there is no other option. In fact, there is not a single other mech that can boat 35 LRMs and provide ECM coverage (correct me if I missed one, but the only ECM-capable mechs with missile hardpoints are the RVN and COM, neither of which have tube counts as good as the Atlas).

I bring my assault missile boats to matches in "higher" Elo brackets all the time, and do well with them, including my DDC. I have the numbers to prove it (see the image a page or two back).

It's NOT the build that is bad, it's the pilots you guys have ran into.

I am not picking on anyone. I never said I am better than anyone, I said an LRM boat can be done better on other platforms than Atlas. Sorry you read it the way you did but I do not know how else to explain it. My thoughts are also based on what people I have talked to in game running LRM Atlas have commented in casual conversation before/ after matches. Typical reply is well it does XXX damage, they are tired of spending most the match slowly walking to brawl, it earns well, tired of trying to get into to brawl meta snipers, etc...

ECM coverage well back behind everyone with your dedicated boat DDC Atlas does the team little good, so short of concealing yourself the ECM is a minimal contribution. It would be far more useful with the pack forming the primary line. With ECM up in the primary line you can cover the team from opposing LRMs and also help conceal positioning/ numbers for a push. Ultimately the push from a coordinated team once well positioned is what wins most matches.

I am not sure what my ELO or what bracket I fall in so that I can relate what level my experience in matches is but clearly it must be different than yours. Lights generally make a buffet out of Atlas LRM boats when discovered most matches I have played recently. They usually do not survive unless it is a roll but I guess they do achieve decent dmg (nothing landmark in my opinion for their potential and tonnage).

ETA: Seeing your other post I want to clarify that I am talking about dedicated LRM boat Atlas. Not the guy who wants to put a launcher on to use as he moves up with the team, then engages with the team in the real fight. I am specifically talking to the recent surge in guys sitting back 800-900 meters lobbing LRMs while they leave their mediums/ heavy to forum up the front line.

Last night I seen the entirety of a teams assaults sitting back as LRM boats. The front line didnt have the weight and got wrecked. Meanwhile the assaults are bragging about their dmg numbers. Lights pushed in and turned the assault boats into a buffet. It was one of those matches you just look back and go wow what a mess.

Edited by DarthPeanut, 13 May 2014 - 08:44 AM.