624 replies to this topic

[1453 R]

Void Angel, on 21 May 2014 - 01:31 PM, said:

PS: I ignored the force-on-force duel idea too, Laser. The sample size is too small to get good data; all it would accomplish is to muddy the waters. To get scientifically valid results, we'd need to have a large, statistically-representative sample of data - gathered from people who either weren't testing, or thought they were testing something else. Otherwise you have researcher bias problems, and your experiment can easily be skewed by such factors as who has the better team.

It’s not a perfect idea by any means, and only semi-controlled at absolute best. That and it would, of course, be plagued with accusations of meta play – and by that I mean specifically gearing each team to try and defeat the other, not just lots of PPCs and AC/5s. I know as well as you do that unfortunately, such a match wouldn’t solve anyone’s issues.

Of course, there was as much Trial of Equals as there was scientific inquiry in the notion. Heh, I want to see Cim’s stuff, and this is about the only way I can do it. There’s enough Clansman in me to feel like an actual duel*, premeditated and fought under agreed-upon conditions and rules, is a possible solution to issues like this. Prove it on the field – and not in the moshpit-derpfest that is solo drops – or take it elsewhere.

That and I’m honestly a little sick of dealing with nothing but idjits every time I play MWO . Even one good solid drop where I can know for a fact that my team (or the enemy team) isn’t going to re-enact Custer’s Last Stand, Lobotomized Lemmings Edition appeals quite strongly to me. Besides, with missiles in the state they’re in right now it wouldn’t even be a fair Trial. I could take out an LRM Badlas right now if I was piloting a base defense turret, so long as it was a laser turret and not a missile turret.

Blah.

[Void Angel]

I think you're underestimating LRMs. They're in a pretty decent spot right now. The problem you run into trying to use them really isn't the weapon system itself, but the screwed-up tactics that are being caused by long-range pinpoint damage dominance, and the overly-defensive mentality trained into players by the game.

[1453 R]

Heh, I was specifically speaking of the weird glitch with the latest patch having Done Something to missile damage, which left me pulling an entire night’s full of sub-100 damage games in my brand spankin’ new Loup de Guerre and making me very depressed as well as incredibly baffled – I’m not fantastic, but I’m not that bad! Q_Q

Trust me, you don’t need to convince me that LRMs can pull their weight in the right hands and with the right tactics – my favorite/best ‘Mechs at the moment (discounting said weird glitch for the moment) are ones that general carry 20+ tubes of long-range missiles and deliver them straight to enemy faces. I just do that on my mixed-armaments Thunderbolt, or my Lurmishing Trebuchets, and generally hold that anything much heavier than a Catapult doesn’t have much business trying to be a pure-LRM build no matter what Stalker pilots say.

Or LRM Badlas pilots, for that matter.

Edited by 1453 R, 21 May 2014 - 04:36 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

Void Angel, on 21 May 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

They're in a pretty decent spot right now.

Unless the hotfix got in without me noticing - Bishop Steiner and a few others have been doing experiments, and the nerf that the Clan LRM were going to get hit the IS LRM... and harder than was intended (IE less than 50% damage within ~800 meters, and only a few registering)

PGI has issued an official apology.

Edit: hotfix apparently got in, situation normal.....

Edited by Shar Wolf, 21 May 2014 - 09:09 PM.

[Void Angel]

See, I missed all of that - where did this happen?

That -does- explain my recent LRM boat matches... I just thought it was an operator headspace and timing issue.

[Alaskan Nobody]

I would have put it down to that myself - LRM have always fluctuated wildly in their results.

Bishop Steiner and a few others went into the testing grounds to double check it though - and it is not looking good for the Clan LRM nerf plan.

[1453 R]

Apparently some errant bit of CLRM code slipped in with the Tuesday patch and beggared missiles all to hizzell and back. Great time to introduce Loup de Guerre, by the way. I was mostly convinced that I was just having an incredibly off night until I saw Niko's post about the missile bug in GD.

As for the CLRM worries now...I can only assume/hope that what snuck into our build on Tuesday was incomplete, and that it doesn't spell the whole story for Clan missiles. If it does, then I'm going to be very upset. I'm deeply looking forward to my Stormcrow-F, and I will tolerate ripple-fired missiles just fine - but not if they hit like my poor LdG was hitting on Tuesday night...Q_Q

[Void Angel]

I cannot find that at all - I really wish the devs would standardize their information practices. I'm tired of having to juggle these forums, and twitter, and reddit, and NGNG, and...

[1453 R]

Russ Bullock Blames the Clans

Or at least he blames some sneaky little stray Clan weapons coding. Same thing, right?

[Gyrok]

1453 R, on 21 May 2014 - 04:35 PM, said:

Heh, I was specifically speaking of the weird glitch with the latest patch having Done Something to missile damage, which left me pulling an entire night’s full of sub-100 damage games in my brand spankin’ new Loup de Guerre and making me very depressed as well as incredibly baffled – I’m not fantastic, but I’m not that bad! Q_Q

Trust me, you don’t need to convince me that LRMs can pull their weight in the right hands and with the right tactics – my favorite/best ‘Mechs at the moment (discounting said weird glitch for the moment) are ones that general carry 20+ tubes of long-range missiles and deliver them straight to enemy faces. I just do that on my mixed-armaments Thunderbolt, or my Lurmishing Trebuchets, and generally hold that anything much heavier than a Catapult doesn’t have much business trying to be a pure-LRM build no matter what Stalker pilots say.

Or LRM Badlas pilots, for that matter.

I would argue the BLR-1S is the singularly unique Assault that is good for missile boating almost to exclusivity, with the Awesome 8R not far behind it. Other than that though, yes, no other assault should boat missiles.

[1453 R]

Gyrok, on 22 May 2014 - 03:50 PM, said:

I would argue the BLR-1S is the singularly unique Assault that is good for missile boating almost to exclusivity, with the Awesome 8R not far behind it. Other than that though, yes, no other assault should boat missiles.

The BLR-1S certainly has the tubes for it, but the main thing with assault-weight missile boats is that you’re taking a ‘Mech which should be intercepting and turning it into a ‘Mech that requires other, friendly interceptors in order to do its work. It’s something Void’s mentioned several times as the primary job of an Atlas – projecting its presence and dictating the fight.

That’s the reason I’d bet on my Thunder Hammer every time over a pure-LRM Atlas – a pure-LRM Atlas doesn’t have any presence. It’s absolutely defenseless if there’s nothing else around it to take fire and attention off of it, and when your one hundred tons of armor, gristle and anger needs other people to babysit it…well, your team is not optimally configured. The same argument applies to a lesser extent for any other assault-weight Lurmpocalypse-wannabe – you’re an 80+-ton ‘Mech asking sub-75 ton ‘Mechs to do your tanking for you. Against enemy direct-fire assault ‘Mechs? They can’t do that.

A rule I always keep in mind when I design/pilot my bare handful of assault ‘Mechs is that if an assault pilot is unwilling/unable to go directly against another assault pilot, face to face and gun to gun, then one should not be in an assault ‘Mech. More often than not, your team ends up counting on you to plug the breach and put that massive weight of armor to work. Even in my Victors, with not too much more than their stock armaments and a monster, highly vulnerable XL engine, I always remembered that it was my job as an assault pilot to act as a shield and a linebreaker for my lighter units, if they needed it. I may have preferred to fight as a gigantically oversized striker…but if my team needed me to act like an assault, I did.

LRM Badlases, or Stalkers or BLR-1S’s, as they’re usually configured, can’t do that. They’re incapable of it, and that leaves your team down what is often a very crucial capability. Especially when 3/3/3/3 comes out and you can’t bring half a dozen Highlanders to any given game anymore.

[SethAbercromby]

1453 R, on 22 May 2014 - 04:36 PM, said:

LRM Badlases, or Stalkers or BLR-1S’s, as they’re usually configured, can’t do that. They’re incapable of it, and that leaves your team down what is often a very crucial capability. Especially when 3/3/3/3 comes out and you can’t bring half a dozen Highlanders to any given game anymore.

The only LRM Assault I am considering to build is an ALRM 40 Stalker 3H with 2 Streaks and 2 Large Lasers for direct fire and shorter range combat. It's designed for second line fire support, moving behind the front line and punishing any 'Mech that decides to step into the open for too long. LLas for quick shots at targets with lower exposure and Streaks for anyone that decides to attempt a brawl.

A pure LRM Assault is suicidal for anyone once 3/3/3/3 hits properly, but there is still a use for LRM-centric builds to assist their teammates and back up the front line.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

A pure LRM Assault is suicidal for anyone once 3/3/3/3 hits properly, but there is still a use for LRM-centric builds to assist their teammates and back up the front line.

I would argue intensively that it was/is suicidal even without 3/3/3/3, but there are plenty who argue that I am an idiot for even suggesting that (such as good ol Vic)

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

I would argue intensively that it was/is suicidal even without 3/3/3/3, but there are plenty who argue that I am an idiot for even suggesting that (such as good ol Vic)

As long as 3/3/3/3 isn't here, they usually don't impact their team. In fact, most of the time it's even beneficial when their 4 direct fire Assaults get some backup from a super heavy missile platform. Since there is no set cap for Assaults, it's simply too easy to redeem the bad qualities of a LRM Assault by adding so many more, that the bad qualities suddenly transform into a boon to the team.

[1453 R]

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 04:59 PM, said:

The only LRM Assault I am considering to build is an ALRM 40 Stalker 3H with 2 Streaks and 2 Large Lasers for direct fire and shorter range combat. It's designed for second line fire support, moving behind the front line and punishing any 'Mech that decides to step into the open for too long. LLas for quick shots at targets with lower exposure and Streaks for anyone that decides to attempt a brawl.

A pure LRM Assault is suicidal for anyone once 3/3/3/3 hits properly, but there is still a use for LRM-centric builds to assist their teammates and back up the front line.

Sure – one of my top three ‘Mechs at the moment is still my ALRM-25/ERPPC/2xML TDR-5S(P). It does the exact same thing – close second-line fire support, designed to weigh in on other people’s fights quickly and effectively. You’re still at a big disadvantage against anything without LRMs that can get close to you, but you’re not utterly helpless, and if you design your armament properly your direct-fire weapons should compliment and support your LRMs. Ninety percent of your firepower available at your chosen range of engagement – only beaten by 100% of your firepower there.

PLUS YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE TUBES FOR YOUR DAMN LAUNCHERS. God, the utter terribleness of the STK-3F©…T_T

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 05:00 PM, said:

I would argue intensively that it was/is suicidal even without 3/3/3/3, but there are plenty who argue that I am an idiot for even suggesting that (such as good ol Vic)

Heh…actually, I recall Victor mostly arguing the same thing. Assault-weight LRM boats are too slow and take too big a bite out of your team’s available hold-the-line power to be worth the investment – only less-than-fully-competent teams die to enemies faced down with multiple ALRM-60 Stalkers. That whole overly-defensive thing Void mentioned.

But yes – with 3/3/3/3, spending a full third (or more!) of your team’s assault tonnage on pure LRM boat is going to be an even more poorly regarded move than it is now. That’s the other reason mediums are generally held to be the best missile platforms – they’re the smallest ‘Mechs that can mount an effective missile armament and thus take the smallest bite out of your direct-fire hold-the-line weight. All the benefit of a Lurmpocalypse assault (if played well), and none of the drawback (if played even better).

[SethAbercromby]

1453 R, on 22 May 2014 - 05:09 PM, said:

PLUS YOU ACTUALLY HAVE THE TUBES FOR YOUR DAMN LAUNCHERS. God, the utter terribleness of the STK-3F©…T_T

A lot of people still tell me it's the best thing "because I am chain firing them anyways so it doesn't matter". It does matter. It you are only intending to use the suppressive fire aspect, grab some LRM5s and load them into a medium. Same effect, more mobility, problem solved. No need to waste that on an Assault chassis.

[1453 R]

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 05:14 PM, said:

A lot of people still tell me it's the best thing "because I am chain firing them anyways so it doesn't matter". It does matter. It you are only intending to use the suppressive fire aspect, grab some LRM5s and load them into a medium. Same effect, more mobility, problem solved. No need to waste that on an Assault chassis.

Quote

If you are only intending to use the suppressive fire aspect, grab some LRM5s and load them into a medium

Quote

grab some LRM5s and load them into a medium

Quote

LRM5s...medium

...I WANT MY BUSHWACKER BACK SO GOD DAMN BAD Q_Q. Nonsensical penny-packet missile launchers or not! Why does it have to have so few canonical variants...

*Intense, soul-crushing sadness*

[Void Angel]

Actually, the only major problem with the Stalker F champion was that it was an XL Deathtrap Stalker. Otherwise, the only problem with it was that it tried to use all the same launchers - probably in order to be newbie friendly. So while the build should have looked Like This, it wasn't too bad aside from the XL. Of course, I do like The 3H better as a dedicated missile boat, but either will do in a pinch. You can also make a Passable Missile Boat out of a Highlander, though I'd personally prefer a hybrid build there. There's also the Battlemaster 1S and - althouth the example isn't probably a good build -you might even try Something Awesome. None of these builds are necessarily intended to be optimized - they're just for reference.

All of these chassis can hold their own with other Assaults as long as the team works together. The Rule of Three may create a higher proportion of cases where a large proportion of your team's assaults are missile boats, but by the same token, you're not going to have more than three Assault brawlers or poptarts either. I think it'll be ok.

Edited by Void Angel, 22 May 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[Alaskan Nobody]

SethAbercromby, on 22 May 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

As long as 3/3/3/3 isn't here, they usually don't impact their team.

Stopped reading at that point.


Yes

They do impact their team.

Or have you never had a smart ECM light sit just outside your Beagle Range rendering you a complete and utter dead weight to your team?

[SethAbercromby]

Shar Wolf, on 22 May 2014 - 06:00 PM, said:

Or have you never had a smart ECM light sit just outside your Beagle Range rendering you a complete and utter dead weight to your team?

Then you failed at missile boating by not staying lose enough to anyone to keep harassers of you back, but isn't necessarily an exclusive shortcoming of an Assault missile boat, though being shutdown would be much more crucial for that period of time.

But my original point is, that there are enough other Assaults to counterbalance the shortcomings, allowing the Assault to basically perform like a better armed and armored Heavy 'Mech without impacting team performance in a crucial way. This will change when each team is restricted to only 3 Assault 'Mechs.

I am not defending their usefulness (or lack of thereof), but I am stating why they can appear to be useful to the ones using them.

Edited by SethAbercromby, 22 May 2014 - 06:28 PM.