517 replies to this topic

[Joseph Mallan]

Almond Brown, on 28 April 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

If a Poll was taken, and everyone answered truthfully, not likely btw, agenda's and all, the # of deaths by HS with Air/Arty would pale in comparison to those of other weapons.

Just the other night. Match started, and Boom, one dead on the other side. It was a collective WTF (both sides) and then the text came in. "Sorry Head-shot, " The game carried on, no further fuss.

So given that, whatever weapon(s) caused that poor bastishes death should be removed from MWO.

If it cause head-shots, consensus is it sucks the fun out. Or is it just weapons that some don't want to have to spend C-bills on that do it that suck the fun?

So yes, it is all QQ and whining. All head shot possibilities go or all stay. A select group do not get to select, sorry.

And when the "select few" can do that kind of selective BS, then you can kiss MWO dead.

But I like killing by head shots. I practiced long and hard to be able to be fair at it. What about My Skills? What about My fun?

[Almond Brown]

Kyle Wright, on 28 April 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Okay,

So I spent the better part of the last hour going through and reading every single dang post... jesus christ that was taxing on the brain.

There are two sides in this argument. Those who believe the modules are fine as is as they dont seem to be effected as much by them, and those who think damage is fine, but they need a nerf in form of cooldown or spread.

In one post OP, you stated to me that you agree that if people bunch up they deserved to be arty or air striked. I agree.

ill even go to the extent of saying that yes they are Op compared to other modules. They are free firepower as one of the SwK guys pointed out with no repercussion for use. In 12-mans yes they are pretty much standard issue as its a way to break death balls or keep poptarts down somewhat.

If a nerf was to be done:
-Actually make the command console useful, in which case you need one or mechs with a command console to be able to call in arty. if that mech(s) is destroyed then you lose communication with airfield and off map artillery batteries.

- Spread idea, increase spacing of the shells that impact. gives reason to use a module slot to get higher accuracy. As far as airstrikes maybe limit the number of shell that are dropped at the same damage as current. Sounds nuts, but if modern fighter jets can it a garage door target with munitions flying couple thousand feet and at close to mach speeds then futuristic aerofighters should in theory be better. Just limit the munition payload and maybe require tag or UAV needed to accuratly drop in a location, other wise randomize a chance that your pilot misses the target do to miscomunication of target area. Get less damage spread amongst multiple units, but those that are hit may take a little more.

Redsmoke, maybe not enough warning. I could see a warning like the missile warning say something like incoming arty or enemy aircraft so many seconds out? Futuristic Radar should be able to track aircraft and projectiles. Airstrikes, maybe target the aerofighter and shoot them down or throw them off course ability. ( good role for jagers as they are suppose to be air defense units from what I know of cannon).


As far as comparing these consumable to other modules, I feel you can't for the simple fact no other modules deal damage to enemy forces.

Lights and mediums that use these to compliment there small weapons load outs is fine by me. i look at them aas a forward observer in some aspect.

For clarity. They cost either 15MC or 40K C-Bills each. That is not FREE by any definition.

[Bulletsponge0]

I don't even know how to use arty or airstrike module

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Almond Brown, on 28 April 2014 - 10:55 AM, said:

Yup, in all 5 (of 100+) Mech chassis that can handle more than 3 slots (those have to be Mastered btw).

So the odds of any Mech having Adv Zoom, Adv Decay and Air and Arty are very limited. Why limit the usefulness of our limited slots any further?

Sorry, what? You misunderstood. I didn't say you take 4 modules.

I said you take 3, which is the vast majority of mechs.

It's super rare to take a loadout that would benefit from Decay and Adv. Zoom at the same time. Sniping and LRM's really do not work well together.

So you take EITHER Decay or Zoom and the two Strikes.

[Almond Brown]

Joseph Mallan, on 28 April 2014 - 11:08 AM, said:

But I like killing by head shots. I practiced long and hard to be able to be fair at it. What about My Skills? What about My fun?

They want "Their Fun" their way Joe. "Your Fun" is of no consequence. Sorry good sir.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Bulletsponge0, on 28 April 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

I don't even know how to use arty or airstrike module

Put reticle over spot, hit key linked to the module, done.

If you can put your reticle on it, you can drop the strike. No range limits.

So for instance, if you are standing on that hill we all know in Alpine, and you can see 4 mechs below you 2000m out, you can put your reticle on them and drop a strike.

[Bulletsponge0]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 April 2014 - 11:17 AM, said:

Put reticle over spot, hit key linked to the module, done.

If you can put your reticle on it, you can drop the strike. No range limits.

So for instance, if you are standing on that hill we all know in Alpine, and you can see 4 mechs below you 2000m out, you can put your reticle on them and drop a strike.

damn...might actually have to put the arty module in my raven then....

[Almond Brown]

Here is a visual for those who can relate. Take a football field and make it round. Now you have the area targeted by the 10 "DFA" shells on trial here. (100m)

Now take 12 Mechs and pack them in that 100m circle (likely never see all 12 Mechs huddled together, 8 is a more typical DeathBall) and drop the 10 in random locations. Odds of a head shot death are more likely with 2 pairs of PPC's at optimal range, fired within .10s of each other.

[MischiefSC]

Almond Brown, on 28 April 2014 - 11:02 AM, said:

If a Poll was taken, and everyone answered truthfully, not likely btw, agenda's and all, the # of deaths by HS with Air/Arty would pale in comparison to those of other weapons.

Just the other night. Match started, and Boom, one dead on the other side. It was a collective WTF (both sides) and then the text came in. "Sorry Head-shot, " The game carried on, no further fuss.

So given that, whatever weapon(s) caused that poor bastishes death should be removed from MWO.

If it cause head-shots, consensus is it sucks the fun out. Or is it just weapons that some don't want to have to spend C-bills on that do it that suck the fun?

So yes, it is all QQ and whining. All head shot possibilities go or all stay. A select group do not get to select, sorry.

And when the "select few" can do that kind of selective BS, then you can kiss MWO dead.

No issue with headshots. No reason arty can't headshot someone.

I don't get kills with arty, but I set them up pretty effectively.

Slow the delay between deployments to 30 seconds. Maybe decrease splash, or increase delivery to target time. That's all I'm talking about.

[Almond Brown]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 April 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Sorry, what? You misunderstood. I didn't say you take 4 modules.

I said you take 3, which is the vast majority of mechs.

It's super rare to take a loadout that would benefit from Decay and Adv. Zoom at the same time. Sniping and LRM's really do not work well together.

So you take EITHER Decay or Zoom and the two Strikes.

So your take is that there is only 3 useful modules? Whatever 3 you load on your Mechs...

Do you feel both Strikes have the same damage "potential" and ease of use?

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 April 2014 - 11:25 AM.

[Screech]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 April 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

My lack of using them now, doesn't suddenly mean they aren't OP. It just means I made a decision not to use them.

I think what you call OP I call not useless. To me arty/air is a not useless module and could only be considered OP if you compare them only to the useless modules.

Try using them for a couple weeks and I am fairly certain you would at best come with a game or two with any memorable usage. Occasionally it was useful on stopping quick caps from enemy light but turrets really got rid of that. Now its best usage is to stall the murder-ball or killing folks stuck in zoom..

[MischiefSC]

Kyle Wright, on 28 April 2014 - 10:30 AM, said:

Okay,

So I spent the better part of the last hour going through and reading every single dang post... jesus christ that was taxing on the brain.

There are two sides in this argument. Those who believe the modules are fine as is as they dont seem to be effected as much by them, and those who think damage is fine, but they need a nerf in form of cooldown or spread.

In one post OP, you stated to me that you agree that if people bunch up they deserved to be arty or air striked. I agree.

ill even go to the extent of saying that yes they are Op compared to other modules. They are free firepower as one of the SwK guys pointed out with no repercussion for use. In 12-mans yes they are pretty much standard issue as its a way to break death balls or keep poptarts down somewhat.

If a nerf was to be done:
-Actually make the command console useful, in which case you need one or mechs with a command console to be able to call in arty. if that mech(s) is destroyed then you lose communication with airfield and off map artillery batteries.

- Spread idea, increase spacing of the shells that impact. gives reason to use a module slot to get higher accuracy. As far as airstrikes maybe limit the number of shell that are dropped at the same damage as current. Sounds nuts, but if modern fighter jets can it a garage door target with munitions flying couple thousand feet and at close to mach speeds then futuristic aerofighters should in theory be better. Just limit the munition payload and maybe require tag or UAV needed to accuratly drop in a location, other wise randomize a chance that your pilot misses the target do to miscomunication of target area. Get less damage spread amongst multiple units, but those that are hit may take a little more.

Redsmoke, maybe not enough warning. I could see a warning like the missile warning say something like incoming arty or enemy aircraft so many seconds out? Futuristic Radar should be able to track aircraft and projectiles. Airstrikes, maybe target the aerofighter and shoot them down or throw them off course ability. ( good role for jagers as they are suppose to be air defense units from what I know of cannon).


As far as comparing these consumable to other modules, I feel you can't for the simple fact no other modules deal damage to enemy forces.

Lights and mediums that use these to compliment there small weapons load outs is fine by me. i look at them aas a forward observer in some aspect.

I'd say have two different arty modules - if you want the improved one with faster delivery and more rounds (like we currently have) it only works in lights and mediums. Also require TAG to deploy. Those would be awesome compromises. Especially with 3/3/3/3, that inherently limits the number deployed per match.

My issue is simply balance compared to other modules and the frequency with which they can be deployed, especially in more competitive matches where nobody cares about 80k cbills and pretty much everyone has two and every 10 seconds is a race to deploy.

[Almond Brown]

MischiefSC, on 28 April 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

No issue with headshots. No reason arty can't headshot someone.

I don't get kills with arty, but I set them up pretty effectively.

Slow the delay between deployments to 30 seconds. Maybe decrease splash, or increase delivery to target time. That's all I'm talking about.

Do the Maths. 30 seconds, after the 60 seconds start delay, would mean some players would not get a chance to use theirs during a typical 7-9 minute Match. Why bother bringing something you might not even get to use?
Or, once initialized, everyone spams what they got asap and the game goes south of North in the first 4 minutes. No thanks.

FYI: Almost one year ago this same argument was had, but, the Air and Arty absolutely "sucked" and was a waste. Funny how times change. Threads are easily found.

Edited by Almond Brown, 28 April 2014 - 11:32 AM.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Almond Brown, on 28 April 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

So your take is that there is only 3 useful modules? Do you feel both Strikes have the same damage "potential" and ease of use?

Did I say there are only 3 useful modules?

What I indicated, is there is a major discrepancy in the balance between modules.

There are a lot of useful modules. Seismic is useful, it used to be overpowered. Adv. Sensor is useful, definitely not overpowered.

Now Adv. Decay and Adv. Zoom? They are starting to get into the discussion, for instance you basically HAVE to use Adv. Decay to use LRM's. If you have any long range FLD? You should definitely have Adv. Zoom, it is a total game changer for sniping since the fix. But they are still borderline.

Then there are the Strikes, anyone who is worth their snot knows that if you want to win, you have Strikes. End of story. And that's where you get to overpowered.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Screech, on 28 April 2014 - 11:26 AM, said:

I think what you call OP I call not useless. To me arty/air is a not useless module and could only be considered OP if you compare them only to the useless modules.

Try using them for a couple weeks and I am fairly certain you would at best come with a game or two with any memorable usage. Occasionally it was useful on stopping quick caps from enemy light but turrets really got rid of that. Now its best usage is to stall the murder-ball or killing folks stuck in zoom..

I don't need to use them, I group with people who use them all the time to devastating effect. Like I said, it's a decision.

There isn't just "useless" and "overpowered" or "useless" and "not useless". There are varying degrees.

Weapon Range Modules = Mostly Useless
Mountain Climb Modules = Mostly Useless

Adv. Sensor = Decent
Gyro Module = Decent

Seismic = Good

Adv. Zoom = Very Good
Adv. Decay = Very Good

Strikes = Amazing

[Osric Lancaster]

You know what would be cool as a flavor element for Arty? Make there be a physical artillery piece near your base with a minimum range. Either a tank, or something like the call-in artillery pieces in 'Mech commander. Make enemy artillery support something that you can knock out to add a bit of fun.

Then remove the smoke for arty, have it require a linked TAG and be added to your weapon firing groupings. Firing it would mean firing holding your TAG on target while the artillery piece adjusts, and then fires at your TAGed location. Give the shell a brief travel time determined by range from arty piece to target. The module gives you a resource allocation of 8 to 16 (30 damage) shells which can be streamed at an area by holding your TAG down to call in a 'burst' (.5 second delay) of shells, which get progressively more accurate. . . or you can take highly inaccurate pot shots with arty while eating the readjust delay. The arty piece works on a first come first serve and takes longer to readjust when changing bombardment areas (make traverse time some function of distance arty fire is walked).
. . . or something. Arty could be done better but I'd rather the critical hit system, heat, or weapon hardpoint limits be dealt with first.

[Screech]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 28 April 2014 - 11:33 AM, said:

There isn't just "useless" and "overpowered" or "useless" and "not useless". There are varying degrees.

Weapon Range Modules = Mostly Useless
Mountain Climb Modules = Mostly Useless

Adv. Sensor = Decent
Gyro Module = Decent

Seismic = Good

Adv. Zoom = Very Good
Adv. Decay = Very Good

Strikes = Amazing

Agree to the sentiment but I find you analysis of their value is completely out of whack. Calling a one time consumable amazing and then saying the zoom module is very good? Sorry I am just on a much different island.

[MischiefSC]

Almond Brown, on 28 April 2014 - 11:29 AM, said:

Do the Maths. 30 seconds, after the 60 seconds start delay, would mean some players would not get a chance to use theirs during a typical 7-9 minute Match. Why bother bringing something you might not even get to use?
Or, once initialized, everyone spams what they got asap and the game goes south of North in the first 4 minutes. No thanks.

FYI: Almost one year ago this same argument was had, but, the Air and Arty absolutely "sucked" and was a waste. Funny how times change. Threads are easily found.

So every 30 seconds would allow 18 shots in a 9 minute match. So, it's true, it wouldn't be useful if everyone on both teams brought one. Then again, that's the point.

It also means you deploy Arty/Airstrike when you really need to, not just a constant spam.

Yeah. That would be exactly perfect.

[Nicholas Carlyle]

Screech, on 28 April 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Agree to the sentiment but I find you analysis of their value is completely out of whack. Calling a one time consumable amazing and then saying the zoom module is very good? Sorry I am just on a much different island.

What do you want me to say about the zoom module? The ranges where it's necessary, you are doing crappy damage anyway.

It's more of a crutch than anything. I said it's very good, but we lived it being terrible for so long, and I know a lot of people that did perfectly fine without it.

Now Strikes? That is just icing, it's FREE unlimited range extra damage. It can totally turn the tide of a battle, and has RNG one shot potential. And your entire team can pack them.

[Glxy Cmdr Jason Tseng]

The Mechromancer, on 27 April 2014 - 09:58 PM, said:

I got headshoted/killed 2 games in a row by arty ;_; ... In a Banshee

That was probably me. =D

in all seriousness, I do not feel that arty is NECESSARY or OP. Yes, I do run it and Air a lot on my mechs, but if I forget to put it on, it is not a huge detriment to my gameplay strategy. Even in comp matches, I do not feel that they are over used. If you and your team are paying attention, you can get out of the way in time (Even in my HGN i might catch one shell, but its not an executor by a long shot).

There is no reason why they should be nerfed; this is again the few frustrated ones causing an uproar through their ire at being caught in something they didn't see in time to get out of the way. I mainly run lights, which can be shredded by a well placed arty/air, and have no problem with the mechanics. If i see it, I get out of the way, if I do not maintain situational awareness and miss it, then WP by the person who placed it and I get the damage. Simple as that.