I think since when the Clans come out they are gonna be testlive for all the ones who preordered and seeing how the weapons will be they will take the data and probably eventually apply it to the IS AC. That's what my gut feeling tells me.
I think this too, I like the Burst Fire ACs and Spread damage ERPPC's - but leaving the pinpoint damage available to freebirth mechs is completely ********. I really do not like paying to be a game tester in a game that is not in beta. So in essence, I will have a full clan collection that I would not dare use in 12-mans for another 4 to 24 weeks until PGI actually balances their game (that they had 6 months to balance properly).
Lets face it, while some omnimechs can pack some large firepower, others are rather underwhelming. Is anyone looking forward to leveling our lights if they lack ECM? Slow, long range, snipers - rather boring gameplay for me. The Nova comes with a 250xl, which is much slower than I run my hunchbacks and/or centurians (I only use that slow of an engine if I'm hauling around an AC-20 in my HB). While clan erml's are very good weapons, I can't help but think the Nova will wind up rather meh (shame, because I really like it). The Summoner will be a very ugly grind - I really can't find a configuration I like for it. The TW should be ok, but hitboxes could doom it. - we will just have to see.
I think this too, I like the Burst Fire ACs and Spread damage ERPPC's - but leaving the pinpoint damage available to freebirth mechs is completely ********. I really do not like paying to be a game tester in a game that is not in beta. So in essence, I will have a full clan collection that I would not dare use in 12-mans for another 4 to 24 weeks until PGI actually balances their game (that they had 6 months to balance properly).
Lets face it, while some omnimechs can pack some large firepower, others are rather underwhelming. Is anyone looking forward to leveling our lights if they lack ECM? Slow, long range, snipers - rather boring gameplay for me. The Nova comes with a 250xl, which is much slower than I run my hunchbacks and/or centurians (I only use that slow of an engine if I'm hauling around an AC-20 in my HB). While clan erml's are very good weapons, I can't help but think the Nova will wind up rather meh (shame, because I really like it). The Summoner will be a very ugly grind - I really can't find a configuration I like for it. The TW should be ok, but hitboxes could doom it. - we will just have to see.
Consider putting an UAC20 into the Summoner and drop the ERPPC in favor of an ERLL keep those glorious LRM15s
OH YEAH 5JJ!
Look out innersphere punks!
NOVA! GET OUT! 12 energy hardpoints, 12!!! I will RULE! 50 tons of doom!
If they applied this "nerf" to the IS weapons as well, then they would just have to nerf clan weapons again right after. No thank you.
No reason to. Still a lighter, smaller gun than the IS versions. Usually with slightly more range, too. Ditto with the PPC. If they give IS PPC the effect clan ERPPC have, but scaled for their damage, you still have an outright better weapon system in the Clan tech.
What it does do, between the AC and PPC changes, is make lasers comparatively more viable. It shifts the Energy vs Ballistic debate from Hot DOT vs Cold FLD to Hot and Light vs Cold and Heavy, which is a much better, more fair comparison. It also increases the overall time to kill on mechs, impacts the effectiveness of low risk high reward tactics like poptarts (without neutering them - they just need to switch to gauss and ppc and actually expend effort learning how to use a Gauss), and allows the more skillful pilots with better aim to really get the most out of the weapon systems that they can.
In short, it solves world hunger, gives every child a computer, and cures A.I.D.S.
OK, maybe that was hyperbole, but making all AC burst and reducing the effectiveness of PPC/ERPPC as a pin point weapon system would immediately change things up in the game. For the better I believe.
Edited by Pariah Devalis, 09 June 2014 - 02:35 PM.
No reason to. Still a lighter, smaller gun than the IS versions. Usually with slightly more range, too. Ditto with the PPC. If they give IS PPC the effect clan ERPPC have, but scaled for their damage, you still have an outright better weapon system in the Clan tech.
What it does do, between the AC and PPC changes, is make lasers comparatively more viable. It shifts the Energy vs Ballistic debate from Hot DOT vs Cold FLD to Hot and Light vs Cold and Heavy, which is a much better, more fair comparison. It also increases the overall time to kill on mechs, impacts the effectiveness of low risk high reward tactics like poptarts (without neutering them - they just need to switch to gauss and ppc), and allows the more skillful pilots with better aim to really get the most out of the weapon systems that they can.
In short, it solves world hunger, gives every child a computer, and cures A.I.D.S.
OK, maybe that was hyperbole, but making all AC burst and reducing the effectiveness of PPC/ERPPC as a pin point weapon system would immediately change things up in the game. For the better I believe.
I believe you may have misunderstood my point.
PGI is making Clan AC's burst fire and PPC's do splash damage as a method to narrow the gap in power between IS and Clan weapons. Fine, I get that. Even if we mount IS weapons on our mechs we can still roflstomp them into the stone age (unless the quirk system turns out to be a nerf system to balance out our superior mechs as well).
If they then do the same thing to IS weapons, they just widened that gap, making Clan weapons more powerful in comparison. They would then have to nerf clan tech yet again so nobody screams "clan tech is OP!!!".
TLDR: If PGI applies the burst fire/splash damage nerf to IS weapons then it will nullify the entire reason they did it to Clan weapons in the first place: to balance them out.
Find your ammo placement curious. Remember, you can survive half a mech loss and each ton of ammo is pre-cased for Clans. If your ERPPC arm is blown off, you just lost a ton of your longevity. :\
LocationSector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha, on a small blue-green planet orbiting a small, unregarded yellow sun.
Posted 09 June 2014 - 02:40 PM
Pariah Devalis, on 09 June 2014 - 02:38 PM, said:
Find your ammo placement curious. Remember, you can survive half a mech loss and each ton of ammo is pre-cased for Clans. If your ERPPC arm is blown off, you just lost a ton of your longevity. :\
You actually expect me to post where I place my ammunition on the forums, quineg?
PGI is making Clan AC's burst fire and PPC's do splash damage as a method to narrow the gap in power between IS and Clan weapons. If they then do the same thing to IS weapons, they just widened that gap, making Clan weapons more powerful in comparison. They would then have to nerf clan tech yet again so nobody screams "clan tech is OP!!!".
You assume the Clan tech gap is huge. It is not. This is not table top, and even in table top once customized units were involved the gap between Clan and IS mechs really boiled down to the pilot skill, not the mechs themselves. I will use my classic example of "here is an eye opener for you all."
A typical user made cataphract, at 70 tons, has between 36-40 tons of available room to cram whatever the hell you want into it. A summoner, at 70 tons, has approximately 22 tons. Clan tech is not 50% lighter (except missiles), and only energy weapons do more damage (and only about 30% more).
Mathematically there is no way to match the firepower in a ballistic configuration, you can break even with a missile configuration, and you can edge out the IS mechs with energy heavy load outs using ERMLas (but now you have heat issues). All things being equal in a weapon mechanics sense, the game is already pretty close to balanced (in a strictly IS vs Clan respect), however all things are currently not equal. Right now the Clan mechs are at an extreme disadvantage due to the lack of FLD options.
Introducing the Clan weapon approach to IS weapons will bring things back into line, increase time to kill, and increase the viability of lasers relative to everything else.
In here, we have exactly 1.5 front loaded damage options for Clan: Gauss and ERPPC. The IS currently have: Gauss, ERPPC, PPC, AC2, AC5, AC10, AC20, UAC5.
Competitively and functionally, it does not take a rocket scientist to realize that the Clans are getting the sharp end of the stick here, without the courtesy of lube. It is laughable to think the Clans are in any way at the same level or above the IS tech right now, as far as lethality is concerned, when taken as a whole.
That will not stop me from using them, mind you. I intend to give PGI tons of telemetry in it, and hope for rapid iteration and export of the clan weapon mechanics to IS AC and PPC.
The game needs increased TTK changes, which the Clan changes do address. However, by only addressing it to one set of mechs and not all the mechs you basically screw them over. The Clan mechs will hopefully be a beta test and proof of concept for PGI to make the IS versions ASAP. The game as a whole will improve, and I am not terribly concerned about Clan tech overpowering IS tech if they worked the same. At all.
Edited by Pariah Devalis, 09 June 2014 - 03:01 PM.
You assume the Clan tech gap is huge. It is not. This is not table top, and even in table top once customized units were involved the gap between Clan and IS mechs really boiled down to the pilot skill, not the mechs themselves. I will use my classic example of "here is an eye opener for you all."
A typical user made cataphract, at 70 tons, has between 36-40 tons of available room to cram whatever the hell you want into it. A summoner, at 70 tons, has approximately 22 tons. Clan tech is not 50% lighter (except missiles), and only energy weapons do more damage (and only about 30% more).
Mathematically there is no way to match the firepower in a ballistic configuration, you can break even with a missile configuration, and you can edge out the IS mechs with energy heavy load outs using ERMLas (but now you have heat issues). All things being equal in a weapon mechanics sense, the game is already pretty close to balanced, however all things are currently not equal. Right now the Clan mechs are at an extreme disadvantage due to the lack of FLD options.
Introducing the more balanced approach to weapons to IS mechs will bring things back into line.
In here, we have exactly 1.5 front loaded damage options for Clan: Gauss and ERPPC. The IS currently have: Gauss, ERPPC, PPC, AC2, AC5, AC10, AC20, UAC5.
Competitively and functionally, it does not take a rocket scientist to realize that the Clans are getting the sharp end of the stick here, without the courtesy of lube. It is laughable to think the Clans are in any way at the same level or above the IS tech right now, as far as lethality is concerned, when taken as a whole.
That will not stop me from using them, mind you. I intend to give PGI tons of telemetry in it, and hope for rapid iteration and export of the clan weapon mechanics to IS AC and PPC.
I have no idea what you are trying to say at this point.
PGI themselves have stated that these changes are being put into place in order to make Clan weapons in MWO less powerful than they are in tabletop.
tabletop Clan ERPPC - 15 damage 15 heat.
MWO Clan ERPPC - 10 damage with 2.5 splash adjacent 15 heat. This is unarguably less powerful than tabletop.
BUT, I am perfectly fine with this because:
IS ERPPC - 10 damage no splash 15 heat and 1 extra critslot and 1 ton heavier.
No argument, Clan ERPPC>IS ERPPC
say they make IS ERPPC with the splash mechanic. Now IS ERPPC does 8 damage with 1splash into adjacent.
Now Clan ERPPC>>IS ERPPC
At this point they will nerf Clan weapons even further. No thank you.
Edit: Also, you are forgetting the fact that in MWO you cannot simply add whatever you want to mechs. You must stay within strictly defined hardpoint restrictions. Clan mechs all have far more weapon hardpoints available per mech than IS does. Even without engine/FF/ES/etc customization, we can get far more insane with firepower than the IS can. But then none of that was never my original point.
I have no idea what you are trying to say at this point.
That you are concerned about imagined tech superiority because you are looking at the weapons but not the package. Balance is a HOLISTIC approach. As in, you need to look at everything, and not just the parts. Ignoring limited tonnage, ignoring the pitfalls, and only looking at the positives is no way to form a sound judgement on balance.
Quote
PGI themselves have stated that these changes are being put into place in order to make Clan weapons in MWO less powerful than they are in tabletop.
tabletop Clan ERPPC - 15 damage 15 heat.
MWO Clan ERPPC - 10 damage with 2.5 splash adjacent 15 heat. This is unarguably less powerful than tabletop.
BUT, I am perfectly fine with this because:
IS ERPPC - 10 damage no splash 15 heat and 1 extra critslot and 1 ton heavier.
No argument, Clan ERPPC>IS ERPPC
Yeah, and? Why take an IS ERPPC when an IS PPC is just as good 90% of the time and generates far less heat? The standard IS PPC > Clan ERPPC because the splash damage is not what is important in competitive play, but the front loaded, pinpoint damage. If splash damage was valued, people would be rocking LBX, not ACs or UACs.
Also, again, you are looking at a comparison between an IS weapon and a Clan weapon without framing it in the context of the entire package. That is not good. At all. Again, I implore you to take a moment and think about the big picture, not individual weapon systems. Weapon balance is part of the equation. Mech balance is another. Gameplay is another. Everything is interconnected.
Quote
say they make IS ERPPC with the splash mechanic. Now IS ERPPC does 8 damage with 1splash into adjacent.
Now Clan ERPPC>>IS ERPPC
And? This is bad why?
I think every single one of your arguments are so because you are looking at things in tiny bites, as opposed to overall. So what if the Clan ERPPC is better? A Clan mech cannot even take an IS PPC of either variety, and an IS mech cannot even take a Clan ERPPC, so they are essentially two different weapons. Look at the Clan LPLas. It is WORLDS better than the IS LPLas, and rightfully so! They are not comparable weapons because in the big picture they either make up for shortcomings elsewhere or create them.
Look at Clan gauss rifles. 12 tons, but what can you fit two of them into that grants you any sort of advantage over IS mechs? None, really, except the assault mechs. Autocannons? Forget about taking more than two with basic ERMLas backup weapons. You simply do not have the tonnage for it in any heavy mech or below. These are solid downsides here. Now, layer the lack of Front Loaded Pinpoint Damage options on top of that. That makes the weapons worth even less than their tonnage if you seek to play the 1 to 1 comparison game.
If you look at the bigger picture, however, and look at damage sources in a strictly FLD vs DOT approach, which is ultimately what matters:
Clans have little to no Pinpoint FLD options. IS have tons of them. The fact that it is or is not a pinpoint damage option is HUGE. Absolutely GIGANTIC an issue. That is the reason why Lasers are not respected too much competitively. That is why the AC20 (or AC40 Jagers) are so damned good. FLD vs DOT is a game changer.
Edited by Pariah Devalis, 09 June 2014 - 03:15 PM.
That you are concerned about imagined tech superiority because you are looking at the weapons but not the package. Balance is a HOLISTIC approach. As in, you need to look at everything, and not just the parts. Ignoring limited tonnage, ignoring the pitfalls, and only looking at the positives is no way to form a sound judgement on balance.
Ah, I see. That, however, was not my point at all.
PGI themselves stated that they are making these modifications to clan weapons in order to make them less powerful as compared to IS weapons. This is not arguable, they did in fact make this statement. Whether or not you or I think that said nerf goes too far or not is not the point I was trying to make.
My point is simply that if they make these same changes to IS weapons then they will be in effect undoing the changes that they already made. Thus, forcing further changes to the opposing side. In other words, nerfing Clan weapons yet again.
They might, but if it turns out the Clan tech is getting its ass handed to it statistically speaking, then clearly they overshot the mark. Buffing Clan weapons would not be the smart approach, bringing the IS weapons into line with the Clan ones would.
They did say they will be monitoring the telemetry. In a tweet this morning, I asked Russ if they intend to test it out on Clan mechs before deploying it in IS mechs down the pipe. His answer was "maybe," but he wants to get the balance of Clan mechs down first.
I am not sure that is possible, however. The Clan tech is a huge leap in the right direction for the game's health, mechanically. However, as long as the PP FLD option exists, how do you balance DOT weapons against vastly superior PP FLD? It becomes trying to balance apples to oranges. Something needs to change, one way or another.
Edit: Correction - Vastly superior and more plentiful Pinpoint Front Loaded Damage vs DOT.
Edited by Pariah Devalis, 09 June 2014 - 03:37 PM.
They might, but if it turns out the Clan tech is getting its ass handed to it statistically speaking, then clearly they overshot the mark. Buffing Clan weapons would not be the smart approach, bringing the IS weapons into line with the Clan ones would.
They did say they will be monitoring the telemetry. In a tweet this morning, I asked Russ if they intend to test it out on Clan mechs before deploying it in IS mechs down the pipe. His answer was "maybe," but he wants to get the balance of Clan mechs down first.
I am not sure that is possible, however. The Clan tech is a huge leap in the right direction for the game's health, mechanically. However, as long as the PP FLD option exists, how do you balance DOT weapons against vastly superior PP FLD? It becomes trying to balance apples to oranges. Something needs to change, one way or another.
Naturally, but I reserve any judgements on all of this for when I can actually get my grubby hands on the clan mechs
Pariah you can not expect someone to see the whole picture if he taped his head on it . He will not understand you simply because he watch first at the weapons , then to the mechs without the weapons and not compare them to something from the other side .At that point i think you are right they need to implement these changes to IS mechs too , the omni restrictions vs free customization is enough to balance the game .
Let us avoid insults, now, Daneiel. I find most people have a logical structure behind their arguments and say what they do because they believe it. He is not incorrect in that the Devs initially stated they wanted to bring Clan tech into balance with IS. Clan weapons, not so much. The weapons can be powerful if there are strict limitations elsewhere insolong as balance is achieved in the big picture.
Of course, much is to be seen by actual playtesting. I could be incorrect in my predictions, however mine are based on the same reasoning that makes Lasers uncompetitive and AC boating competitive. DOT vs FLD. It matters not the individual weapons, but if one side has a disproportionately large amount of access and variety to FLD then they have a significant advantage.
Edited by Pariah Devalis, 09 June 2014 - 04:57 PM.
As I have posted elsewhere, here are how I would like to see ACs evolve into manufacturer variants. This would actually help balance, as you could adjust each version independently of the others.
According to the definition of an autocannon in Sarna:
"Autocannons range in caliber from 30mm up to 203mm and are loosely grouped according to their damage versus armor. The exact same caliber of shell fired in a 100 shot burst to do 20 damage will have a shorter effective range than when fired in a 10 shot burst to do 2 damage due to recoil and other factors. Autocannon are grouped into the following loose damage classes: (ac2-ac20)... Caliber is fluff for the size of the barrel that the shell or shells are fired from and no standard caliber has been set for any of the classes of Autocannon. Autocannon in a class vary by manufacturer and model. With the fluffed number of shells and caliber being specified, no Autocannon has been specified to be one shell fired for each 'round' or burst of fire. Probable exceptions are (185mm Demolisher cannon and 203mm Cauldron Born cannon, which is actually a clan mech, btw)"
That means you can have an AC20 with the same bore as an AC2, but fires at such a high rate of fire that it does roughly ten times the damage in the same time period. You could also have an AC2 that has the huge bore of an AC20, but fires so slowly that it only does roughly 20 damage every minute or so.
Keeping that in mind, here are the DP5S (damage per 5 seconds) ranges for each AC class:
AC2 would do 0-4 DP5S
AC5 would do 4-9 DP5S
AC10 would do 9-15 DP5S
AC20 would do 15+ DP5S
So, a single-slug version of an AC10 would do 9-10 DP5S, while a burst-fire version that fire tons of small rounds would do 14-15 DP5S.
Here would be my proposed adjustments to the existing IS ACs:
AC2 - damage 0.3 - cooldown 0.67 - DP5S 2.23 - range 720 - max range 1440
AC5 - damage 1. - cooldown 1.66 - DP5S 5.0 - range 620 - max range 1240
AC10 - damage 5.0 - cooldown 2.50 - DP5S 10.0 - range 450 - max range 900
AC20 - damage 16 - cooldown 4.00 - DP5S 20.0 - range 270 - max range 540
These would be the "standard" versions. Once CW gets implemented, you could then adjust the "damage" and "cooldown" numbers all over the place to represent different manufacturers, as long as the "DP5S" value stays within a small range of that classification.
To offset the balance between FLD versions and those with smaller per-shell damage, you would just skew towards the edges of the damage range for that class.
Here are some examples for possible AC20 variants:
On top of this, to give some real variety, you could also have burst-fire versions, such as:
Kali Yama Big Bore AC/20 - damage 5.0/tick - 1.0 second burst with 4 ticks - cooldown 4.0 - DP5S 20.0
Armstrong Requiem AC/20 - damage 1.0/tick - 4.0 second burst with 20 ticks - cooldown 1.0 - DP5S 20.0
For a visual of this, please watch Koniving's amazing video:
You now have balanced autocannons (both compared to other weapons and also compared to each other), enough variety for every person imaginable, and a reason to own certain manufactory plants, as you could limit ammo supplies/cost for certain weapons based upon the current ownership and faction difference.
Now, for all Ultra versions (including future releases), you can then have a toggle to double the rate of fire, but with an increasing chance to jam based upon how long you hold the trigger. The chance starts at {5%}, then increases every second by another {5%}, until it jams. Once the weapon jams, it is unusable for a minimum of {5} seconds, or as long as the trigger was held before the jam, whichever is longer, but then the jam rate resets to 5%.
EDIT: just for clarification, when I mention a "tick" in terms of an autocannon, I'm not saying to make them hitscan like a laser or trace like a MG. Each AC tick would be a separate projectile, but the ammo amounts would have to be adjusted to compensate for the rate of fire of that specific caliber. In the case of the burst-fire versions above, each pull of the trigger would let off the burst as described. For instance, a ChemJet AC/20 would have the current 7 rounds per ton, since it only fires one round per cooldown, while the Armstrong AC/20 would fire a burst of twenty projectiles per trigger pull and have 140 rounds per ton (7x20) and an Imperator AC/20 would have 80 rounds per ton (4x20). This is where supply and demand could be used to balance different manufacturers, such as the huge ChemJet rounds being extremely expensive to reload, countering the FLD advantage they provide. (NOTE: Koniving addresses this ammo issue in his video/post, and does a better job of it than I do.)
Also, since it has come up in discussions, projectile speed can also be adjusted to balance the autocannons. Larger rounds can have more falloff and slower flight times, while smaller rounds would have little to no falloff and near instant flight time (2000+ m/s)
(Updated with Koniving's video and some refinement/links)
Exactly Pariah , you can take and compare Cataphract 3D with Summoner for example - how much pinpoint FLD you can have on both of them , then you can go another weight and compare again . The game is heavily focused at FLD at that point and with omni restrictions you don't have much room to play with it , on the other side you have much more freedom - you can tweak the engine type and rating , internals the type of the armor and amount of it , you have (in most of the cases ) more HP then the stock .I think PGI needed to chose one of the ways or to carry some the changes for weapons or mech restriction to the other side as well .I personally want to see limitation on the builds on both sides ( that can bring some of the configs more close the lore in my opinion ) , but again i think PGI went a bit too far in that case .
P.S. You are right i went a bit more too far then necessary for what i am apologize .
Wait. So after hearing it, Clan Weapons have reduced range? WTF is that all about? It's already being "balanced" into the ground so now we have the same range? Then why buy Clan Mechs if they're just going to be shinier than IS mechs?
9
Corbenik, on 09 June 2014 - 11:31 AM, said:
