684 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

Unfortunately the only way i can think of to improve the performance of LRM's is to stop making arena's and make battlefields instead. Because of the missiles slow flight speed you need opponents out of cover more to make them effective (or increase the travel speed to match direct weapons which would look...weird).
The problem with that is that players are already complaining that there's no cover on maps

[Vanguard319]

One of THOSE threads again...

LRMs are fine, and require no further tweaking aside from the planned mechanics for clan LRMs. L2P you whiny noobs.

/thread plz

[East Indy]

Koniving, on 09 June 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

For your first issue; that's correct.

One of the major frustrations of LRM use is losing locks so easily. It drove the velocity change, increasing missile contact. What you're suggesting will contravene that, and increase alpha at the same time. That's a problem.

Quote

Less ammo encourages boating?

Fewer missiles per ton, yes. Economies of scale. It's why people don't put Artemis on SRM 2s.

If I want to add a single LRM-10 but get punitively low ammo per ton, I'm more inclined to save LRMs for a primary system in which I can put 10 tons into missiles, and spend my way around the limit.

If all 'Mechs have a 4-ton LRM missile limit instead, you can actually increase per-ton count to 200, make support racks more attractive, and limit LRM-60 boats to 13 volleys a game.

I still think top-heavy teams (and the psychology associated with them) influence the perception of LRM power the most, though.

[Koniving]

East Indy, on 09 June 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

One of the major frustrations of LRM use is losing locks so easily. It drove the velocity change, increasing missile contact. What you're suggesting will contravene that, and increase alpha at the same time. That's a problem.

Recall the recent LRM apocalypse? Fast travelling missiles. Combine this with either NARC, or as most LRM users always have, target decay. NARC continues an LRM lock for up to 30 seconds.
Target Decay ensures it for 3 seconds. With the LRM speed at that time, at 800 meters you could fire your LRMs and hit in less than 2 seconds.

There's no need to increase alpha. Two launchers after the change are effectively 4 of MWO's current launchers.

East Indy, on 09 June 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

If I want to add a single LRM-10 but get punitively low ammo per ton, I'm more inclined to save LRMs for a primary system in which I can put 10 tons into missiles, and spend my way around the limit.

Said LRM-10 is 7.5 seconds to fire a second time. You miss once, you miss. Big time. It would thusly never be a primary weapon system in that regard except on a light mech. And it won't take but one enemy light to ruin that.

East Indy, on 09 June 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

If all 'Mechs have a 4-ton LRM missile limit instead, you can actually increase per-ton count to 200, make support racks more attractive, and limit LRM-60 boats to 13 volleys a game.

Convoluted mechanics.
Would you thusly limit ACs to have 4 tons? Machine guns to have 4 tons? Would you limit an SRM launcher to 4 tons? In what way would it make any sense what so ever?

East Indy, on 09 June 2014 - 11:41 AM, said:

I still think top-heavy teams (and the psychology associated with them) influence the perception of LRM power the most, though.

Correct.

[Shabahh Kerensky]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 June 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

Skill
Video games do not require a lot of skill.

Not that I'm on the "this game requires leet skillz" ego trip or anything, but you ever give someone who has never played a video game ever a controller? It makes me feel like the maestro of video gamers when I see it happen.

[n r g]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

[Sevrid]

Vanguard319, on 09 June 2014 - 10:51 AM, said:

One of THOSE threads again...

LRMs are fine, and require no further tweaking aside from the planned mechanics for clan LRMs.

/thread plz

This. Lrms are in a really good place. Charging a group of LRM boats is funny to watch, they all panic and go into reverse and then die.

Edited by Sevrid, 09 June 2014 - 12:02 PM.

[East Indy]

Koniving, on 09 June 2014 - 11:58 AM, said:

Said LRM-10 is 7.5 seconds to fire a second time. You miss once, you miss. Big time. It would thusly never be a primary weapon system in that regard except on a light mech. And it won't take but one enemy light to ruin that.

I just think the doubling stuff is more radical a change than what's needed.

Quote

Convoluted mechanics.
Would you thusly limit ACs to have 4 tons? Machine guns to have 4 tons? Would you limit an SRM launcher to 4 tons? In what way would it make any sense what so ever?

It's no more convoluted than tabletop-imported critical slots, which was an effective way to prevent exponential power of weight. SRMs would work at 4 tons, ACs probably 3 tons for each caliber. If someone has trouble understanding that, they'll have trouble with something equally straightforward like hardpoints. But this change isn't something I think is absolutely necessary.

Quote

Correct.

That, then, is why I'd want to see 3/3/3/3 or similar at work for a month at least, even with Clans, before judging.

[Sean von Steinike]

WDBDBloodyTriggerZ, on 08 June 2014 - 07:55 PM, said:

LRMS are skill less and overpowered all you need to to is look in the general direction of the enemy press the button to lock on and fire. Before if you were a fast light you were able to evade them now its almost impossible. LRMs are ruining this game and they need to be nerfed NOW!

Ha..haha...hahahaahha. If you die to LRMs often, you are the unskilled one.

[wanderer]

Sevrid, on 09 June 2014 - 12:02 PM, said:

This. Lrms are in a really good place. Charging a group of LRM boats is funny to watch, they all panic and go into reverse and then die.

Which is derp mode. A good fire lance should be scattering across at least 200m so they can fire at whatever's hugging a buddy. Full reverse en masse is the worst tactic of all- if anything, you want to charge past them, force a turn, and have the ones too shaken to do it at least be able to back up into firing at whoever chased the ones that went through the enemy and vice versa.

[KamikazeRat]

i dropped into a match that was overwhelmingly LRMs...over half of each team was standing back and lobbing LRMs at the first red triangle they could get a long enough lock on. meanwhile the rest of us stood behind the nearest building waiting for someone stupid enough to cross the water on River City. A spotter managed to get in behind us and then the sky darked with LRMs and tore my Orion apart. obviously the cover i was basically stuck in wasn't tall enough. ECM, AMS, no effect against 200-300 LRM tubes and a Jenner with Tag.


Now granted, this one scenario was a bit on the silly side. but i think i demonstrates that something could use a tweak... something to take the Noob LRM spammers off the board and leave the real fire support mechs as a very viable, capable option. i have no insight into what the best option would be.

With that said I consider myself a low-mid level player. I play mostly brawlers. i do well, from time to time. And i generally have no problems getting around with LRMs flying everwhere. Just hide, or hug the D-DC. stick together, and turn down the suck...

i would rather see them stay as is, barring the occiasional LRMfights in which i just play the somewhat bored body-guard, than for them to get tweaked too far one way or the other. same thing goes for poptarts and the Dual ac20/guass jagers. They have weaknesses, just learn to get around them. (more often than not, it is probably best to literally GET AROUND THEM)

Edited by KamikazeRat, 09 June 2014 - 02:32 PM.

[Jonnara]

KamikazeRat, on 09 June 2014 - 02:31 PM, said:

i dropped into a match that was overwhelmingly LRMs...over half of each team was standing back and lobbing LRMs at the first red triangle they could get a long enough lock on. meanwhile the rest of us stood behind the nearest building waiting for someone stupid enough to cross the water on River City. A spotter managed to get in behind us and then the sky darked with LRMs and tore my Orion apart. obviously the cover i was basically stuck in wasn't tall enough. ECM, AMS, no effect against 200-300 LRM tubes and a Jenner with Tag.

This is not a failure of the counter measures vs LRMs but a failure of you and your teams awareness of the battle field.
Once you are in cover. Do not stop looking around.
Light mechs in the smaller maps like river city can flank you're team within seconds of the match starting.

The Tag laser is a massive shout out "hey i am here guys!" It gives away the position of anyone using it. Any incoming fire to the spotter will make him break tag and run away.

Also the kind of cover you want to be in needs to be at lest 2x higher than most medium to heavy mechs to be effective.

Edited by Jonnara, 09 June 2014 - 03:14 PM.

[Gattsus]

Joseph Mallan, on 09 June 2014 - 09:57 AM, said:

I am entitled to give my opinion as much as others. *Shrug* I been playing these games since the late 70s... Skill in the proper sense of the word does not exist here.
Drag point and click
vs
Point Click and drag

I do this all day long posting on this forum! Is that "skill"???

I laughed... and a lot!

[KamikazeRat]

Jonnara....all of that and you pick out "well you gotta watch out for spotters and make sure your cover is tall enough"? i had pretty much figured that out. About the time i look up and see 300 missles i knew what i had done. no need for you to remind me as i said... i acknowledge the fact that i am a somewhat inexperienced player(actually, i played quite a bit back in the day, then stopped and haven't got my mojo back yet ) Obviously I did not do well on that match, mostly because i was laughing at the sillyness of endless LRMS flying back and forth. and no real fighting or damage occurring. At least im going to blame the distraction of the sillyness.

i was citing the example(albiet a silly example) as a demonstration that LRMs aren't usually filling the fire support role as they should be. and perhaps, we all shouldn't poo-poo a tweak, but i would rather them stay as is, than to get tweaked too far one way or the other and have people either stop using them, or the other direction of everyone fielding LRMs

[Mechteric]

Don't knock it till you try it.

Walk a mile in another man's shoes.

Yada yada golden rule etc.


Do people's parents not teach them this crap any more?

[L A V A]

Jonnara, on 09 June 2014 - 02:47 PM, said:

Also the kind of cover you want to be in needs to be at lest 2x higher than most medium to heavy mechs to be effective.

Because the dive angle is too steep.

[Kyle Wright]

I swear the MWO community has nothing but whiners. Like every other week one group want such and such buffed so a weapon gets buffed. That same week another weapon is begged to be needed and gets nerfed. As that 1 weapon is buffed people start complaining OP and begging for the Nerf Hammer to fall. No wonder PGI ignores the forums so much. I'm just waiting for people to set fire to Commandos in protest like Tibeten monks.

[KamikazeRat]

Kyle Wright, on 09 June 2014 - 03:59 PM, said:

I swear the MWO community has nothing but whiners. Like every other week one group want such and such buffed so a weapon gets buffed. That same week another weapon is begged to be needed and gets nerfed. As that 1 weapon is buffed people start complaining OP and begging for the Nerf Hammer to fall. No wonder PGI ignores the forums so much. I'm just waiting for people to set fire to Commandos in protest like Tibeten monks.

welcome to the internet?

[Kyle Wright]

KamikazeRat, on 09 June 2014 - 04:07 PM, said:

welcome to the internet?

Lol, I know right was kind of asking for that one. Just reminds me of the 3rd Austin Powers movie when Goldmember ask if he wants a smoke and a pancake... then finally goes then there is no pleasing you Mr. Powers. I feel that's a lot of why the community has left because all of the vitriol.

Not to get religious on anyone but it's like the serenity prayer... God grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change. The courage to change the things that I can. And the wisdom to know the difference...

[Spheroid]

I will tell you what does need to be nerfed, the terrain following ability of LRMs once they lose lock. Why was this even programmed in for a game that is so poorly optimized as it is?

Can some computer science guy tell how this is more efficient than a simple ballistic trajectory routine?

If I am using cover as everyone says I should, why should I take damage from an unguided missile that will not stop until it hits something other than the ground? Zero skill was used for that damage. Many assaults on caustic cannot achieve sufficient lateral movement in reverse to move out of the way when the missiles follow the terrain down the caldera.

Edited by Spheroid, 09 June 2014 - 05:34 PM.