215 replies to this topic

[IraqiWalker]

Damocles69, on 21 June 2014 - 03:58 PM, said:

2 gauss 2erppc dire wolf disagrees

as dose 12 er small 4 mg nova

these are really the only 2 out of whack builds however. nerfing ER meds and smalls (they are currently the 2 best lasers in the game by a wide margin) will fix the nova. dont know what to do about the dire wolf. however, any mech should not be allowed to 1 or 2 shot assault mechs lol

Ghost heat on the nova's SLs is balancing that. Unlike IS SLs C-ERSLs trigger ghost heat at 7 or more. Also, that's a DoT build, so if you move, you can counter it, and squish it. Only the Daishi is a PP FLD build, and that one is just too easy to deal with. Not to mention that it is short ranged, and relies heavily on facing the opponent without any potential for torso twisting. Those Novas are actually the easiest for me to kill with my orion. Soon as they open fire, they get an AC 20, 4MLs, and 2 SMR4s right into the CT, and then I twist to spread damage.

Yes, it's terrifying if you get put in front of a daishi. That mech can kill anything in front of it. That, however, is all it can do. If you move to the side, even a bit, the Daishi is done for.

[Torgun]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 04:42 PM, said:

<but you see, we DON'T. That is the advantage of IS MEchs. They don't have locked cores. No one runs an Orion with a 375. To artificially claim that you have to is a fallacy. You see, I can choose to run a larger engine....or a stock 300. A TWolf HAS to have the 375, no matter what.

If you want to do a fair comparison of how much free weight respective mechs have, the only fair way to do it is with engines that let them run at the same speed. Anything else is not a direct comparison, since the TBR can't change engines. My point is if you don't want to run a fast and agile 75 tonner, but want to go around 70 kph and carry more weapons instead, don't run the TBR. Anyone running IS mechs that want to run with a fast Heavy like the TBR, will have less tonnage for weapons than TBR. And once again, clan weapons weigh less too.

Edited by Torgun, 22 June 2014 - 12:07 AM.

[Pjwned]

Wintersdark, on 21 June 2014 - 11:06 PM, said:

It's a pretty good trade for the IS. Clan lasers are better, but IS have substantially better LRM's and Autocannons, as well as having both regular and ER PPC choices.

You can't look at individual systems to balance them, you need to see the ecosystem as a whole.

I don't entirely agree, the clan lasers are so substantially superior to IS counterparts in almost every way that I think it's a little out of hand, and while clan LRMs and ACs definitely have a weakness with their ripple fire they still have a number of other advantages over comparable IS tech such as heat, tonnage, and crit slots.

To me it seems like having high range, high damage, more than manageable heat, low tonnage, and low crit slots on a hitscan weapon that doesn't use ammo is comparable to pinpoint AC sniping from across the map, although it's obviously not as bad for a number of reasons.

[Michael Abt]

For me as a Hunch pilot clan mechs are indeed a lot stronger than IS mechs. The core argument in this thread is that their weapons do DoT and they need longer to kill an enemy. From my point of view they do have that extra time needed because of clan xl engines. Against IS mechs i have to blow up LT/RT which ends the fight in most cases. Fighting a clan mech i have to work through the CT. Even if all my damage -including my own DoT- is right on spot the fight will be minimum one weapon cyclye longer, likely two or more. In conclusion my TTK against clan mechs goes up a lot which on the other hand means i take more damage from return fire.

While i wouldn't go as far as saying clan mechs are OP they are noticable stronger. On a match scale it evens out since teams are mixed but on a personal level it got more difficult. As if driving a Hunch wasn't difficult enough already.

Edited by Michael Abt, 22 June 2014 - 12:13 AM.

[kapusta11]

Just wait until you get your hands on jump capable, 68 kph, 2xGauss+ERPPC Mad Cat MKII.

[Jeb]

and your having issues hitting the CT on the clan mechs? It seems like every hit I take in the TW hits my CT...

[Torgun]

Jeb, on 22 June 2014 - 12:19 AM, said:

and your having issues hitting the CT on the clan mechs? It seems like every hit I take in the TW hits my CT...

I think most people aim at the CT since it's the clearly biggest part of the TW, it's nothing new though. Catapults, Dragons, Thunderbolts are all pretty easy to hit in the CT and get hit there often.

[Saint Scarlett Johan]

With the exception of my Dire Maud, Trixie the Dragonslayer and my Founder's Fastlas are still by a long shot, my best performing mechs.

[Col Jaime Wolf]

Bishop Steiner, on 21 June 2014 - 12:12 PM, said:

Yes indeed.

I had to sit there and really examine the issue. Why do some players facing the Clans not have any particular issue with them, yet others, just absolutely get their panties puckered and cry "OP! OP!"?

Then I had an epiphany. The Majority of Clan Weapons are Damage Over Time. Given a chance to unleash their full power, they do tend to have a Higher DPS, and also a potentially higher Alpha Potential.

Mind you, good players seldom worry about DPS, but this led me to the answer.


IF........... you insist on standing out in the open, especially in big, slow mechs, and doubly especially without the benefit of ECM or massed AMS....... Clan Tech is OP.

IF........... you regularly get into staring matches with your opponent....... Clan Tech is OP.

IF........... you cannot reliably put the majority of your return fire into one section of your opponent..... especially when it's staring back at you....... Clan Tech is OP.

If you do all these things, have trouble walking and chewing gum at the same time, and regularly stare into the sun, you will indeed find Clan Tech OP.

The good news, is there is a cure. No, not to Nerf Clan Tech. Or to Buff Inner Sphere Mechs. No silly rabbit, the cure? It's to learn NOT to stand out in the open, not to get into staring matches with your opponent and to aim effectively, without panicking at return fire.

So indeed noble Forum Warriors, the power to defeat the Clans is indeed right in your very hands!!!!


Also, if the whole world is against, you and everything is OP, this may enlighten you as to why:
http://mwomercs.com/...80#entry3466680

you´re welcome!

Also, have noticed a trend that exacerbates the "Clan superiority" mythos. People are so scared of Clan Tech (just like they are of LRMs) that they turtle and huddle and mewl, even WORSE than they did against IS Mechs.

Thus, they huddle up like fish in a barrel, and take themselves out of the fight. And thus, they lose, and thus, become a self fulfilling prophecy of "Clan Superiority".

*Does this mean Clan Tech is perfect, or doesn't need tweaking? Of course not. But then, look at just how out of whack a lot of IS tech is, even when compared to other IS tech. It's a process, but the basic balance is very very close.

bishop you have fallen down to the status of troll.

we are hearing from both sides of the isle "clan is OP" "its all good your just crazy".

your pretty well strapped with groups and money sunk into the game why dont you organize a few 12v12's with your buddies trying some of the various IS mechs vs Clan mechs both 1v1 and 12v12. then we can put this matter to rest

[XX Sulla XX]

I still see lots of IS mechs doing great.

[IraqiWalker]

Mellifluer, on 22 June 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

bishop you have fallen down to the status of troll.

we are hearing from both sides of the isle "clan is OP" "its all good your just crazy".

your pretty well strapped with groups and money sunk into the game why dont you organize a few 12v12's with your buddies trying some of the various IS mechs vs Clan mechs both 1v1 and 12v12. then we can put this matter to rest

Well, the numbers so far are going with clans and IS being very balanced against each other. Some tweaking is needed, but nothing is OP.

[MischiefSC]

So here's my plan -

Private matches. Clan vs IS, also with 3/3/3/3. We need at least 20 matches with as close to 96 players as we can get. That's a sufficient sample size.

It also needs to minimize as much as possible any premade teams on each side - not voip, not a 12man test but as close to pug conditions as is viable. Pulls from your friends list, people from the forums, however it can be done.

I'll start a thread tomorrow with the criteria for the test and we'll see if we can get people to sign up for it and post screen shots of the results so we can see not just who won/lost but how chassis did. It would be even better if the originator of each match could list as many builds (even just in general, like '3D poptart') as possible.

We can have all the armchair debates we want and anecdotal experience we'd like to have. 12mans and even internal QA is going to provide a degree of 'inbreeding' in your results. Same people playing similar roles and following similar behaviors. Even if you're playing different mechs, you play with the same 10 or 20 people all the time you start to learn how they play and respond accordingly. It can significantly color results.

I have no qualms tracking the results and posting a proper breakdown. 20 matches though, at least, with as close to 96 (or more) different players as we can get. From a population and event sample size that would be past viable and into reliable. That's going to give us close to 2,000 permutations (with repeats but given that we're not testing every possible build, just player performance with the builds they self-select) and be a sufficient chunk of data to glean real results.

If we can get ~100 people and closer to 40 matches (so performance for 480 IS and 480 Clan mech drops with between 4 and 6 drops per person) I could get reliable data points not just for Clan vs IS in general but even mechs and playstyles relative performance.

What we'll need -

Between 8 and 12 people with premium time to head matches and coordinate people, who will then collect a crap ton of data to post on the results.

A list of over 100 people to choose from, expect dropouts and missed timeframes.

A lot of patience. Impromptu trials like this in this chaotic of an environment will take a lot of days to get 20 or more viable matches with full data collection. You can't approach this as a 'we'll knock it out this weekend' sort of thing but more like 'over the next few weeks to a month we'll get what we need'. The focus has to be on the quality and reliability of the data gathered, not the timeline it's done in. Time we've got. Useful data we don't. Converting one to the other has a poor exchange rate.

Some things worth considering as well, if we get people who are up for it -

Who killed who: not just end of round results but a record of who killed who in each match. This will let us extract performance metrics not just for factions but even specific mechs and builds vs specific other mechs and builds. If we can get 40 matches or so that data would be reasonably reliable. At 20 matches a bit more fuzzy but worthwhile anyway.

Drops in the chassis played: Any players willing to give reliable data on how many drops they've got in that exact build. Even simply 'less than 20', '20-50', 'over 50'. This will let us weigh data points for individual expertise.

Anything else you guys can think of? Like I said, it's almost 5AM, I have to get up for work in a very little bit but tomorrow I'll post a separate thread on the idea with exact details and an opportunity for people to sign up.

Wouldn't it be nice to actually collect useful data on something like this instead of just theorycraft? Why can't we actually, you know, go do something useful on a topic like this?

[Claviger]

@ OP 100% agree with your entire post.

1v1, 12v12 proves nothing other than one pilot or 12 pilots were better than the other. The fact is, almost EVERY fight comes down to piloting and not mech capabilities. There are only a handful of mech mismatches that the perceived underdog does not have a solid chance if piloted well.

The 1 thing you left out. A person who was good in an IS mech, tends to look phenomenal in a Clan mech, and people assume its all the mech.

The sad reality is a good player usually does good in any mech, and a bad is bad period.

Edited by Claviger, 22 June 2014 - 03:21 AM.

[Satan n stuff]

Techorse, on 21 June 2014 - 12:14 PM, said:

I wonder how many times I'll get to post this:

Clans are not OP if you're smart. And if you still don't believe me, there's always ECM and the pooptart PPC/AC meta that's far more OP than anything team test tube can cook up.

There actually is a team test tube poptart, but it's no better, and arguably worse because ER PPCs, than the IS equivalent, the Cataphract 3D. Which reminds me, the list of clantech on sarna does include IS equivalent energy weapons with identical stats, I'm assuming this is Star League tech, shouldn't the clans have access to those?

Edited by Satan n stuff, 22 June 2014 - 03:29 AM.

[Capt Sternn]

Sorry he's right neither the Clan or IS are OP. Maybe a little Tweeking here and there but both are fine. The biggest problem is the players. However the 3/3/3/3 Natch maker should take us a sttep closer to balanced sides. The individual mechs are fine. However the Catapult K-2 should have 3 modules when mastered.

[Bishop Steiner]

Torgun, on 21 June 2014 - 11:39 PM, said:

If you want to do a fair comparison of how much free weight respective mechs have, the only fair way to do it is with engines that let them run at the same speed. Anything else is not a direct comparison, since the TBR can't change engines. My point is if you don't want to run a fast and agile 75 tonner, but want to go around 70 kph and carry more weapons instead, don't run the TBR. Anyone running IS mechs that want to run with a fast Heavy like the TBR, will have less tonnage for weapons than TBR. And once again, clan weapons weigh less too.

And you totally miss the point about how balance works. Got it.

Mellifluer, on 22 June 2014 - 01:37 AM, said:

bishop you have fallen down to the status of troll.

we are hearing from both sides of the isle &quot;clan is OP&quot; &quot;its all good your just crazy&quot;.

your pretty well strapped with groups and money sunk into the game why dont you organize a few 12v12's with your buddies trying some of the various IS mechs vs Clan mechs both 1v1 and 12v12. then we can put this matter to rest

Sorry to say, but just be size you don't like a conclusion or how it's pushed, doesn't make one a troll.

[Bishop Steiner]

A goodly chunk of the 71 people who likes the op are among the better, long time players of the game, and long time, respected firm contributors. I suppose they are trolls, too?

[yalk]

+1 Bishop.....pinpoint instant damage is the real enemy....coincidentally, this was also true in CBT....yeah LBX gave you a chance to roll multiple snake eyes and bypass armor but...a single 20 pointer or double tap 40 pointer to the same location worked to remove mechs from the map just as well or better, who cares about crits? You just plowed through all the outer armor center torso, internals and out the back...

Fun fact: if your having trouble with clan mechs close range having to core them fully instead of just a side torso, aim for the legs...none of the Clan mechs have necessarily favorable leg hit boxes or profiles (they are fairly easy to hit), you can nail them no matter how the clanner twists. They are fairly well armored, but less than going through side AND center torso...and you just eliminated the movement advantage in a stroke, then take their arms (they'll be easy to hit as they just lost a leg) and leave them to limp...you just took their mobility and 95% of their firepower...

I've killed quite a few clan mechs (with a clan mech, but close range and DOT weapons) by double legging, if you strip the outer armor then you've got better than average odds of taking both legs out simultaneously with sweeping laser fire...

I know this works on most mechs, but the clan mechs share leg structures....learn to hit one type and your golden....

It's a death sentence when you lose your ability to dodge those big damage dealing pin point strikes

[Torgun]

Bishop Steiner, on 22 June 2014 - 06:07 AM, said:

And you totally miss the point about how balance works. Got it.

What's that got to do with anything? You claimed the Orion has more free weight for weapons than TW and I pointed out you're basing that on a false assumption. It's actually the other way around when they carry close to the same engine, TW has a few tons more to spare and can carry weapons that often weigh less. There are no ifs or buts about it.

[Bishop Steiner]

Torgun, on 22 June 2014 - 08:11 AM, said:

What's that got to do with anything? You claimed the Orion has more free weight for weapons than TW and I pointed out you're basing that on a false assumption. It's actually the other way around when they carry close to the same engine, TW has a few tons more to spare and can carry weapons that often weigh less. There are no ifs or buts about it.

And I am pointing out it is not a false assumption. And that you seem the only one unaware of it. The Orion has more firepower available BECAUSE it is not artificially constrained to a higher engine like the TimberWolf is. Your fallacious assertion is that the only "fair" comparison is to make the Orion use the same engine, and you totally miss the point that because of perfect imbalance, and it NOT being apples to apples is exactly the balancer in the IS favor. The advantage, one of several for the IS, is that they have greater freedom to customize, and thus tailor their loadout for effect. I don't have to move the same speed as a Timberwolf to counter it. You are the one adding an artificial constraint to balancing that simply doesn't exist in the game.



There are no if ands or buts about THAT.

Not trying to be snippy, man. (Though I think I failed, lol). Just pointing out that it really is not a 1v1 comparo between the two because of the build and design mechanics locking and limiting each one, in different ways.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 22 June 2014 - 08:36 AM.