118 replies to this topic

[Rex Budman]

Bartholomew bartholomew, on 22 June 2014 - 08:08 AM, said:

Yes it does. Had two matches in last two days. All IS against clan mix. IS ROFLstomped both times.

Tell me about it. I kind of feel bad for the Clan pre-purchasers. I mean, I barely see Clanners winning matches when they have a dominant side as opposed to our sides IS mechs. Not every game is that balance but when it happens the IS mechs just kick ass.

Pay to win is a stupid thing to say about Clan mechs. If anything, all they paid for is new sounds and bigger weapons that still manage to get their butts handed to them.

[Octavian]

Koniving, on 22 June 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Meanwhile, "true" Clanners will never go for the leg or your cockpit. Though we can't rely on that, not every Clan user is a 'true' Clanner.

Actually, they would prefer to go for a legs and cockpit. Cheapest parts of the mech to repair/replace.

[Lupin]

Eugenics, on 22 June 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

It seems the only thing an Inner Sphere pilot can hope for is that the Clan pilot has a lot less skill.

Time to use a style of play that works well with IS mechs, like Conquest where IS currently have this advantage.

But not pay to win for sure, but PGI REALLY need to look at there pricing if they want to continue.
i.e. $55 minimum, I can by a new game like Watchdog for less than that.

Edited by Lupin, 23 June 2014 - 03:08 AM.

[Escef]

Koniving, on 22 June 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Meanwhile, "true" Clanners will never go for the leg or your cockpit. Though we can't rely on that, not every Clan user is a 'true' Clanner.

Upon what idiocy do you base this opinion?

[Willard Phule]

Koniving, on 22 June 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Most of the Clan pilots I've seen are morons.

One thing you have to do is approach them as an entirely different beast. It's not the same as IS versus IS. IS versus Clan works with IS being more tactically minded. Ambushes, flanks, teamwork, etc. Twist to spread damage, hit once and hard, try again in a short while, use cover, etc.

Clans are about individual glory and the way the weapons were balanced due reflect this. For example Clan weapons require the Clan mechs to constantly face the enemy; the plethora of attachment nerfs slow down torso twist, speed, this, that, etc. also reflect this by discouraging it. Rush at enemy, stare at enemy, fire everything, watch it die or die trying.

Clan mechs generally can't handle horizontal combat, so if you go around them they are at a major disadvantage. And when you add height to the mix, Clan mechs are screwed. You can hit their rear torsos from above, which are always weaker than their fronts. Many Stormcrows for example have less than 8 armor on the rear. A single poptart blast of 2 PPCs and 1 AC/5 would half-way fry them. Two consecutive poptart strikes + 1 extra AC/5 round will kill them.

Or just do 35 to the cockpit; I've noticed EVERY Clan mech has a HUGE easy to hit cockpit.

Now, next month the Kitfox and Nova will roll out for cbills.

Meanwhile, "true" Clanners will never go for the leg or your cockpit. Though we can't rely on that, not every Clan user is a 'true' Clanner.

Not sure where you get that opinion from. Possibly some novel you might have read? There are plenty of other examples that show thems specifically targeting either the head or legs....so...I'm going to have to disagree with you there.

Lynx7725, on 23 June 2014 - 01:11 AM, said:

[/size]
Right now most PUG Clanners are fairly moronic. Doesn't check clear lane of fire, resulting in FF; crowding each other trying to get kills or just to fire; trying to crowd in on a brawler circling a Dire Wolf... in FRONT of said Dire Wolf. It's so stupid it's sad.

It's not just the clanners, it's all the new players. They can't shoot without stopping and zooming in, then they can't zoom out to move. So, they just waddle along, oblivious to their team, shooting everyone that's anywhere near them.

On the bright side, if they're a Clanner, then they should obviously understand that by shooting YOU in the back, they've challenged you to a Circle of Equals. Feel free to show them that they're not equal to you by killing them. Perhaps they will learn quicker that way. It's only 10k cbills. Pretty cheap...you'll make that up with components on the other team.

[Flatfoot]

My Jester handles itself well against clan mechs. (Stock build). Ohh wait thats pay to win.

Well my DDC does well, so does my hunchback, my LRM boat cats......And not to mention my Jenners. See a pattern here?

How about instead of screaming pay to win, which is a cop-out. Yall learn to adapt and play a different style of stompy robots.

[Goose of Prey]

Quote

You are supposed to use the IS mechs to defeat the clans. And no - it's not impossible, or even difficult. This is just you making excuses for your poor performance.

Congrats on making a one of the dumbest comments I've read today. Maybe I need to get out more.

The myth of damage spreading is only going to last for a short time. People are still playing around with their shinny new lasers and dakka. However that "new mech smell" will wear off soon.

A Timber Wolf with PPC's and a gauss rifle is far more deadly than an equivalent IS mech, with equal pilots. Sorry but the math is what it is, the meta is slowly catching on, and in a month or two even the whitest knight won't be able to deny it.

[Escef]

Goose of Prey, on 23 June 2014 - 04:11 AM, said:

A Timber Wolf with PPC's and a gauss rifle is far more deadly than an equivalent IS mech, with equal pilots. Sorry but the math is what it is, the meta is slowly catching on, and in a month or two even the whitest knight won't be able to deny it.

More deadly? Eh, not particularly. In that config it's just a poptart, the ground speed is nice, but not super. The durability of the Clan XL is the big selling point. And so far the Clan mechs don't seem to have hit boxes that are exemplary in any way.

[The Basilisk]

Clan mechs are absolutely not overpowered as long as they are used with the mayority of clan weapons. ( Clan, Lasers, ACs and LRM suck badly ) They got lighter and stronger Gauss and PPC though, but most still use the new ER and Pulse laser.
Most Clan mechs have to expose themselves too long to fire their standart weaponry or just don't focus dmg enough.
In most pug games I played since last tuesday Clan mechs where easy prey to IS Meta builds.
Whatching the results screen at the end of each match Clan Mechs need ~25% more dmg for each kill based on 40 matches.
This will most likely change soon when the *lets try everything thats new* phase is over and 3 or 4 weapons will be the tools of choice.
But pay to win?
No.

[Goose of Prey]

Quote

More deadly? Eh, not particularly. In that config it's just a poptart, the ground speed is nice, but not super. The durability of the Clan XL is the big selling point. And so far the Clan mechs don't seem to have hit boxes that are exemplary in any way.

Getting hit by 2 CERPPC'S is equal to getting hit by 4 IS ERPPC'S. Spread damage just makes the follow-up alpha more deadly because now the side torso is weak and easier to punch. Few IS mech can run a standard engine, so that means quicker dead IS mechs. I've been seeing it happen all weekend, when it truly becomes the meta, no IS mech will last 5 minutes against any group of clanners. Get out your wallet, or take a break for a while, cuz IS mechs are old news.

Oops sorry make that 3 PPC's

[Dracol]

High damage != better mech

With the release of clans, I've seen damage numbers go up, but that's cause clan weapons spread damage everywhere.

OP, if you are just going by the numbers on the end of match screen, then you are being misled to a certain extent.

[Rizaar]

Yeah, Clan mechs are a little better. Yeah, that means it's Pay-to-Win (or at least Pay-to-be-better).

What's surprising is that this is a surprise to anyone. PGI has geared this game towards Pay-To-Win for some time now. Priority Artillery Strikes, anyone?

They want your money. They're a business, plain and simple. Forget being true to the MechWarrior universe or anything else noble sounding, when it stands in the way of the almighty dollar.

[Bishop Steiner]

Ironwithin, on 22 June 2014 - 08:18 AM, said:

Clantech is supposed to be OP (at first). So basically yes, right now it is slightly p2w, simply looking at the weapon- and 'mech-stats.

12vs12 ISvsClan, no chance for IS. Good thing we don't have faction-matchmaking then, hu ? Right now the matches are pretty fun and not more unbalanced then they used to be anyways with the dice-rolling for tonnage-balance.

Just pray "they" are smart enough to make it 3Lances vs 2Stars when the time comes (or even 2Lances vs 1Star).

And that is where you failed, mechwarrior.

"looking at the stats" tends to be a very misleading approach. Because when people look at the stats, they typically focus on 2-3 things. Hardpoints, Damage, range.

Clans have the edge in DPS and have better XL engines.

What gets overlooked, intentionally or not is: Hitboxes, Mobility, Limitations, Quirks, agility, Cool down, heat, Dot vs FLD, etc.

And in those areas, the Clan Mechs are intentionally subpar in most or all, to counter for the paper damage advantage. Balance is a huge, intricate thing, and having played both types extensively, it is generally well done. The TimberWolf IS a little bit OP atm, and there is the need for balance tweaks, but that should be expected. The IS is still being tweaked, 2 years later.

Also, DPS means nothing compared to PP-FLD alpha damage, which in general, the IS defeats the Clan on. The sole exception being the Direwolf, which trust me, if you have actually driven one, is saddled with a HUGE number of disadvantages to balance it's insane firepower.

[Roland]

Flatfoot, on 23 June 2014 - 04:09 AM, said:

My Jester handles itself well against clan mechs. (Stock build). Ohh wait thats pay to win.

Well my DDC does well, so does my hunchback, my LRM boat cats......And not to mention my Jenners. See a pattern here?

I've noticed the pattern that most folks suggesting the clans are balanced are people who have clan mechs.

Although that in itself is kind of funny, since apparently unmastered clan mechs are balanced against mastered IS mechs.

[Dracol]

Rizaar, on 23 June 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

What's surprising is that this is a surprise to anyone. PGI has geared this game towards Pay-To-Win for some time now. Priority Artillery Strikes, anyone?

Need to correct this misinformation. Yes you can buy priority arty with MC. You can also buy arty for 40k c-bills, and if you have the skills unlocked (which requires 0 MC to do) then you'll be dropping the same arty someone paid real money for.

And clans are pay for early access to new gear.... nothing more/nothing less.

[Escef]

Goose of Prey, on 23 June 2014 - 04:45 AM, said:

Getting hit by 2 CERPPC'S is equal to getting hit by 4 IS ERPPC'S. Spread damage just makes the follow-up alpha more deadly because now the side torso is weak and easier to punch. Few IS mech can run a standard engine, so that means quicker dead IS mechs. I've been seeing it happen all weekend, when it truly becomes the meta, no IS mech will last 5 minutes against any group of clanners. Get out your wallet, or take a break for a while, cuz IS mechs are old news.

Oops sorry make that 3 PPC's

A pair of C-ERPPC is only 5 damage to each flanking location. If you hit an arm, 5 of that damage is lost. While it absolutely is a nice extra, you are being forced to use ERPPCs, which are incredible heat pigs, the only real compensation being 1 ton lighter and 1 crit more compact, so you might be able to squeeze in another heat sink.

As for getting out one's wallet, it's not P2W, it's pay for early access. If you don't want to pay, wait a few months.

Rizaar, on 23 June 2014 - 04:56 AM, said:

PGI has geared this game towards Pay-To-Win for some time now. Priority Artillery Strikes, anyone?

Why would I want to use those when I can get the same results from c-bill arty strikes at the same speed by purchasing a skill with GXP? With the right skill unlock, it turns Cool Shot 9 into Cool Shot 9 By 9, which is equal in performance to the MC-only Cool Shot 18.

Did you never check any of this stuff out?

[MeiSooHaityu]

Clan tech (mechs) isn't P2W in the sense that you must have a Clan mechs to be successful. I have not purchased a clan mech and therefore have been using my IS mechs. I still seem to do as well as I always do.

Now, clan mechs are a whole different animal and have a hugely different playstyle from what I can tell from the videos. I do feel it is a bit unfair that PGI is delaying C-Bill versions as long as they are. This is why it feels P2W.

I do think that trial mech verions of clan mechs would make this feel a bit less unfair.

[silverstripes]

No, no it is not.

[Bishop Steiner]

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 05:02 AM, said:

I've noticed the pattern that most folks suggesting the clans are balanced are people who have clan mechs.

Although that in itself is kind of funny, since apparently unmastered clan mechs are balanced against mastered IS mechs.

Gee, it's odd that the people who have actually played Clan Mechs might have a better idea how well they stack up than those who don't, those who are reacting "OMG!!!!! I LOST TO A CLAN MECH!!! THEY MUST BE OP!!!!!!".

Funny how that works.


OH, btw, most of the guys in the actual "Clans", have already elited and or mastered a good chunk of their mechs. In many cases the current "meta/Min-Max" builds have also been identified. I have 3 unlocked chassis atm, but I split my time evenly between Clan and IS. And because of that, I might, just MIGHT, have a little more clue what I'm talking about than those who have not run Clan Mechs.

And I have, multiple times on here, broken down the Pros and Cons.

But I don't expect that to matter to you, since TBH, your posting of late has crossed over into full blown troll for the most part, it seems, which is a shame, since you used to give interesting counterpoints, even if sometimes in the most maddening of smarmy superior manners.

Edited by Bishop Steiner, 23 June 2014 - 05:37 AM.

[Yellow Kat]

Yes this quote is from another game, but it is still relevant. The terminology may be different (GP = EC here in reality), but the guy dose proove the point of how some people on both sides of the P2W argument are not wrong.

KayneTheSlayer;n80606]A similar thing came up on the Elsword forums a couple weeks ago, on so I, said:

Both sides of the Pay2Win spectrum, the side that says it isn't and the side that says it is, is neither right nor wrong. The main reasons are because

1: Pay2Win sounds like a simple definition based on the term name, but is actually pretty subjective and has a broader definition

2: Variables within this game, specifically a player's skill level, is more important compared to the power cash can give

3: Regardless of how you look at it, Cash does indeed give advantages over GP players.


For example, the best armor set in the game(True Iron Dragon), and being a good/one of the best PVPers does not require any cash at all. This is where the argument supporting that the game is not Pay2Win comes in, because you can get by without spending any cash at all.

But

There is some form of power that can be given to a player via Cash that GPers can't just easily have. Pay4Power IS an element of Pay2Win, but in this game, it by no means guarantees a win. At best, it is an advantage, so in truth, it's more Pay4Advantage, which is also an element of Pay2Win. This is where the argument for Pay2Win comes in, because you're buying power to help give you an edge so that you can win.

[size=3]The fact player skill level is more important and how in terms of stats, GPers can be on equal footing with cashers however is what makes this game far less of a Pay2Win game from others. Don't get me wrong, it's not completely free of it in both portions of the game, just that at best, the game in it's current state is maybe 5-10% Pay2Win at best(This is IMO honestly, it could be higher or even lower in actuality).

Edited by Yellow Kat, 23 June 2014 - 05:45 AM.