Jump to content

Clan Balance Discussion: A Review Of Pugs After 5 Days

Balance BattleMechs Weapons

894 replies to this topic

#541 Adiuvo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,078 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:35 PM

View PostGreyGriffin, on 23 June 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

I thought you guys were quick enough to pick up on the total sweetness of the new rebalanced SRMs that are going to change everything in 5 days?

Come on, chop chop.

There's a lull in comp play right now, the Invitational is the only thing going on right now and our first match is on Thursday :)

RHoD season 4 is still taking signups.

View PostN0MAD, on 23 June 2014 - 08:23 PM, said:

Just out of curiosity, how many competitive teams are out there do you estimate?

53 teams applied for the First Engagement tourney. Around 25 participated in last season of Marik. 15 for RHoD due to a lot of dropouts. There's something like 40 signups for Hann's ladder league. There's a bunch more House tourneys and other unit things that I don't pay much attention to.

Overall it's a small scene, but it's been growing lately. Though I would love to see teams limit the amount of people they have on their roster... too many teams have like 80 members and there's a couple of super teams with hundreds.

View Postugrakarma, on 23 June 2014 - 08:30 PM, said:

Speaking of IS mechs. These mechs are slow assaults. If you take in consideration Time to Close as well as Time to Kill, the triple (in reality 2,5x) DPS does not give any advantage, because the effective distance to kill gets so low. If not they sport XL and lose survivability by that.

Clan vs clan is a bit different, but ER PPC increases Time to Close so the result is similiar.

Yep, that's part of the reason why the SRM carriers are, for the most part, going to be fast mediums like the Griffin and the Shadowhawk. DDCs, unfortunately, will probably never come back. Too slow nowadays.

Edited by Adiuvo, 23 June 2014 - 08:40 PM.


#542 Boscoe

    Member

  • PipPip
  • 33 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:37 PM

Sorry did I see the words Balance and Clans in the same sentence? *rubs his eyes*

#543 Adiuvo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,078 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:37 PM

View PostMizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 08:31 PM, said:

The issue isn't closing from 270m to 180m. It's getting from 1000m+ to <180m. See, e.g. River City Night, where both teams have clear shots at each other, at range, across open ground right from the drop points. Caustic is uniquely set up to allow both teams to hit that ridge at roughly the same time without first being exposed to several volleys of focus fire.

A min-maxed, mixed load brawler SHD can go 97kph. So I don't think speed's the issue here.

I think you don't agree because you're too comfortable with the current meta and mechanics to appreciate why they don't work. I don't think this is because you want to privilege the status quo. I concede you guys want a more dynamic set of gameplay. But I think you're too wed to things as they are and so you're looking for quick fixes and tweaks. The problem is those aren't going to work--they've tried that for 1.5 years and yet here we are.

Time for some alternative approaches.

Matches in competitive play, even with the sniper sharpshooter loadouts we have right now, generally take place at around 400m and always end in a brawl anyways. Closing already happens.

#544 ShinobiHunter

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 1,009 posts
  • LocationPennsylvania

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:41 PM

Just my 2 cents here, but I thought Clan mechs are supposed to be better than IS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was why the Clan Invasion was such a big deal???

#545 Koniks

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 1,301 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:42 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:37 PM, said:

Matches in competitive play, even with the sniper sharpshooter loadouts we have right now, generally take place at around 400m and always end in a brawl anyways. Closing already happens.

Closing happens after the damage has been done outside of brawl range. At that point, brawlers have done limited damage and taken crippling focus fire. I've explained this in at least 5 posts. At this point, our failure to communicate is not because I haven't put the words to pixels.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 08:42 PM.


#546 MechB Kotare

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Bad Company
  • Bad Company
  • 720 posts
  • LocationHuntress

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:43 PM

View Postheimdelight, on 23 June 2014 - 06:50 PM, said:

.
.
.
This is a team-game, anyways. I don't see any league titles or solo-tournament titles under your belt. I think you have a lot of catching up to do.
.
.
.


Its exacly these statements that pisses me off about you "lolds"

You win one freaking official and unofficial turney, and automatically think you are masters of universe. Those guys have dozens of leagues executed, both in MW2/MW3/MW4 over 10 years, which basically makes you league baby.

Not to mention, that only reason why they aren't playing competitively is because they have hard times increasing the ammount of decent and active players to fill up 12 men leagues (yet)

@World

-Redo the stupid JJ mechanism of the game already.
-Implement fixed JJs for all JJ capable mechs.

FIXED With Fixed tonnage.

Lights 4 JJs - 1-2 fixed tons
Mediums 4 JJs 2-3 fixed tons
heavies 4 JJs 3-4 tons
Assaults 4 JJs 4-5 Tons

Buzaah!
Dragons slayer no longer viable with 2xAC5s 2xPPC builds.
No "metaphracts" either.
No "Metawolves" either. Doable, but without 4 DHS....
No need to nerf anything that is at this point at perfect position.

But nooo.... Lets just increase the JJ heat, which will harm only JumpBrawlers again. It wont negate poptarting. It wont negate bunny hoping animation that Adiuvo mentioned.

Edited by MechB Kotare, 23 June 2014 - 08:56 PM.


#547 FupDup

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Ace Of Spades
  • Ace Of Spades
  • 26,888 posts
  • LocationThe Keeper of Memes

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:45 PM

View PostShinobiHunter, on 23 June 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

Just my 2 cents here, but I thought Clan mechs are supposed to be better than IS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was why the Clan Invasion was such a big deal???

In Battletech lore, yes. They were basically the ultimate form of cheese. They had lighter everything, smaller everything, longer range everything, more powerful everything, and their stock builds were generally not as terrible as the typical Inner Sphere stock build. And they were piloted by elite, test-tube-born communist inbred space furries who were generally better than a normal IS pilot. One attempt at balancing this was giving the Clan side fewer robots, but that didn't always work out too well...

The real question is, how viable would that be in a real-time game where each player gets to only pilot one robot at a time, as opposed to commanding a lance or even a whole company (or more)?

Edited by FupDup, 23 June 2014 - 08:46 PM.


#548 Adiuvo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,078 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:47 PM

View PostMizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 08:42 PM, said:

Closing happens after the damage has been done outside of brawl range. At that point, brawlers have done limited damage and taken crippling focus fire. I've explained this in at least 5 posts. At this point, our failure to communicate is not because I haven't put the words to pixels.

At this point let's just chalk it up to our experiences not matching.

View PostMechB Kotare, on 23 June 2014 - 08:43 PM, said:


Its exacly these statements that pisses me off about you "lolds"

You win one freaking official and unofficial turney, and automatically think you are masters of universe. Those guys have dozens of leagues executed, both in MW2/MW3/MW4 over 10 eyars, which basically makes you league baby.

Until they do that in MWO what they did 10 years ago doesn't matter. You don't get a permanent title hold.

Here's hoping for CSJ to make a strong comp showing.

#549 Koniks

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 1,301 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:49 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:47 PM, said:

At this point let's just chalk it up to our experiences not matching.

Well, it's been fun trading posts. But I'd prefer it if you'd spent less time being dismissive and more time actually explaining your perspective than saying that's just the way it is.

#550 Adiuvo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,078 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 08:56 PM

View PostMizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 08:49 PM, said:

Well, it's been fun trading posts. But I'd prefer it if you'd spent less time being dismissive and more time actually explaining your perspective than saying that's just the way it is.

Trust me I've tried explaining >_>

If there's something I've not made clear I'll be glad to elaborate. Evidently I'm not the best at explaining things.

#551 Gyrok

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 5,879 posts
  • Twitch: Link
  • LocationPeriphery of the Inner Sphere, moving toward the core worlds with each passing day.

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:01 PM

View PostRoland, on 23 June 2014 - 07:38 PM, said:

Well, "how it should be" is that the clans have dramatically superior technology to the IS at this point...
And if you aren't one of the best pilots in the galaxy, then you don't get to drive mechs for the clans. You get to be a tech that grovels beneath the feet of your trueborn mechwarrior overlords, if you're lucky.

You don't get to be head of a major clan's galaxy just because you want to.

Is that really how you want it to be?


I do not think you really want me to answer that...because the answer would be what you do not want to hear.

I did not just start Delta Galaxy and declare myself Khan...30 people formed it together to start...and I was chosen by my peers. I have no concerns...do you?

Edited by Gyrok, 23 June 2014 - 09:02 PM.


#552 GreyGriffin

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 792 posts
  • LocationQuatre Belle (originally from Lum)

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:04 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Trust me I've tried explaining >_>

If there's something I've not made clear I'll be glad to elaborate. Evidently I'm not the best at explaining things.

Why specifically target individual weapon systems and chassis in order to keep a tactic under control rather than adjust that tactic's core mechanics to bring it to parity with every other style and element of gameplay? Why is this gross triage that doesn't address the core issue the first suggestion to rap off the keyboard of a player who claims to understand the underlying mechanics on a deeper level than all the nubs? What makes OP's opinion any better than the rest of the bad balance suggestions that go up every day?

Ignoring the argument from authority fallacy, what are the fundamental underlying reasons that these specific changes were suggested?

#553 Koniks

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 1,301 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:06 PM

View PostAdiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 08:56 PM, said:

Trust me I've tried explaining >_>

If there's something I've not made clear I'll be glad to elaborate. Evidently I'm not the best at explaining things.
From my perspective, you haven't written anything about why it's good that heat sinks expand the heat cap, why ghost heat is worth keeping, why other alternatives are bad (beside sunk design time/cost), why we should be able to fire more than 1 alpha without shutting down and/or taking damage, among other things.

Basically, those are the things enabling the current meta and preventing any other loadouts from being effective.

I've seen you agree the current system needs fixed but defend changes that don't move the needle and penalize non-jumpshot mechs more than the jumpshooters.

I just don't get how your explanations jive with your stated preference for more dynamic gameplay.

#554 Sky Legacy

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • 590 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:08 PM

View PostShinobiHunter, on 23 June 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

Just my 2 cents here, but I thought Clan mechs are supposed to be better than IS. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought that was why the Clan Invasion was such a big deal???


yes but you're forgetting that in LORE the way this was balanced is that the clans utilized Zellbrigen which is a form of honor code that forbids them to fight anything other than 1 on 1's (you can't shoot your lancemate's opponent and make it 2 on 1) and various other things like no shooting mechs in the legs, and other very restrictive practices of "honor" that no player in their right mind would utilize in the game. THAT is the reason the inner sphere was able to exploit this "weakness" and basically fight "dishonorably" and defeat the clans. But in the game we don't have that so other forms of balance have to be instated for the game to not be completely unbalanced due to superior clan tech

#555 Bigg Robb

    Member

  • PipPipPip
  • 75 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:18 PM

View PostSky Legacy, on 23 June 2014 - 09:08 PM, said:


yes but you're forgetting that in LORE the way this was balanced is that the clans utilized Zellbrigen which is a form of honor code that forbids them to fight anything other than 1 on 1's (you can't shoot your lancemate's opponent and make it 2 on 1) and various other things like no shooting mechs in the legs, and other very restrictive practices of "honor" that no player in their right mind would utilize in the game. THAT is the reason the inner sphere was able to exploit this "weakness" and basically fight "dishonorably" and defeat the clans. But in the game we don't have that so other forms of balance have to be instated for the game to not be completely unbalanced due to superior clan tech


Don't forget IS salvage of Clan Mechs. I mentioned in a another post that my Shadowhawk rocked a CERPPC.

But storyline wise, they first were halted when the iLKhan was killed and they had to elect a new one, and that gave the IS some time, and then really it was Comstar actually who stopped them on Tukkayid with superior tactics and won a 15 year treaty.

None of which matters or effects match game play here.

#556 Fitzbattleaxe

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Veteran Founder
  • Veteran Founder
  • 214 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:19 PM

View PostFupDup, on 23 June 2014 - 08:45 PM, said:

In Battletech lore, yes. They were basically the ultimate form of cheese. They had lighter everything, smaller everything, longer range everything, more powerful everything, and their stock builds were generally not as terrible as the typical Inner Sphere stock build. And they were piloted by elite, test-tube-born communist inbred space furries who were generally better than a normal IS pilot. One attempt at balancing this was giving the Clan side fewer robots, but that didn't always work out too well...

The real question is, how viable would that be in a real-time game where each player gets to only pilot one robot at a time, as opposed to commanding a lance or even a whole company (or more)?

Well it would certainly be more interesting than what we have now. And personally, I find killing a heavy while in a medium far more enjoyable than the reverse, so I wouldn't mind piloting an inferior mech if there was balance through numbers. Sadly, I'm forced to acknowledge that that's probably a minority position.

#557 Koniks

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Moderate Giver
  • Moderate Giver
  • 1,301 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:23 PM

View PostFitzbattleaxe, on 23 June 2014 - 09:19 PM, said:

Well it would certainly be more interesting than what we have now. And personally, I find killing a heavy while in a medium far more enjoyable than the reverse, so I wouldn't mind piloting an inferior mech if there was balance through numbers. Sadly, I'm forced to acknowledge that that's probably a minority position.

Destroying anything is fun in a Stormcrow.

#558 DaZur

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • Elite Founder
  • Elite Founder
  • 7,511 posts
  • LocationWisconsin

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:26 PM

I'm struggling real hard to not see a perfect example of why the top 3%'s perception of balance within the game does not "always" translate into balance metrics that are germane to the remaining 97% f the playerbase.

Absolutely there is some contextual truth to the OP's post... That said, the pros and cons of Beluga Caviar is largely lost upon the huddled masses... If you catch my drift. :)

Edited by DaZur, 23 June 2014 - 09:32 PM.


#559 Adiuvo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,078 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:31 PM

View PostGreyGriffin, on 23 June 2014 - 09:04 PM, said:

Why specifically target individual weapon systems and chassis in order to keep a tactic under control rather than adjust that tactic's core mechanics to bring it to parity with every other style and element of gameplay? Why is this gross triage that doesn't address the core issue the first suggestion to rap off the keyboard of a player who claims to understand the underlying mechanics on a deeper level than all the nubs? What makes OP's opinion any better than the rest of the bad balance suggestions that go up every day?

Ignoring the argument from authority fallacy, what are the fundamental underlying reasons that these specific changes were suggested?

Well, since your real question is this...

Quote

Why specifically target individual weapon systems and chassis in order to keep a tactic under control rather than adjust that tactic's core mechanics to bring it to parity with every other style and element of gameplay?


I'll just be addressing that specifically.

The most effective weapon systems in this game are those that apply their damage in a single shot. This includes all varieties of autocannons, the gauss rifle, and PPCs. This is due to it being more difficult to torso twist against FLD while also allowing your mech to torso twist immediately after firing.

These weapons do not necessarily sync up well together post 400m due to the differing speeds of the weapons, but it's close enough to be usable. Other weapon systems and combinations can offer a higher alpha strike damage, but it's much more difficult to make this damage effective damage than it is with a FLD mech.

Combined with JJs, FLD mechs become overpowered. This is due to the risk/reward factor of the playstyle getting all out of whack. JJs allow you to expose very little of your mech to return fire and you can effectively get free damage when piloting a jumpsniper correctly. Currently, 1 or 2 JJs is enough to accomplish this goal and thus the sacrifice for being able to do it is incredibly small. There is also no inherent risk with JJs. They only provide benefits, such as the increased climb rate which is necessary now that hill climb is in.

You have often suggested that, since the problem is JJ fire, to implement a cone of fire mechanic when jump jetting. The problem with this is that it removes jump sniping from the game entirely. If you are not able to put out accurate fire jump sniping ceases to be dangerous, allowing teams to push with impunity. The increases the speed of the game since brawler weapons deal more damage than sniper weapons, which is somewhat against the design goals of MWO and Battletech in general. Furthermore, lights and mediums, as well as jump brawlers would be severely impacted by a cone of fire solution. Even if the cone of fire was minimal, MWO necessitates and rewards being able to land consecutive hits on components. Due to the high TTK of this game compared to others, for your own mech to survive you need to be able to quickly take out the enemy mechs. There is no healing in this game. The only damage mitigation is going to come through kills. If you are a shot or two away from death and you take perfect aim at an enemy mechs side torso to strip it, and you miss through RNG, it's just a frustrating moment. You did nothing wrong. You did things to the best you are capable of. The game, however, decided that you should die despite this.

Cone of fire also does nothing to increase the skill floor of jumpsniping. It does not make the tactic more difficult to use. Just more annoying and more random. In general it will still be just as accessible as it is today, and jump jet capable mechs will still have a major advantage over non-JJ mechs. Hill climb is not affected by cone of fire, nor is the damage transfer JJs provide.

However, implementing JJ scaling, JJ heat, and fall damage puts in actual drawbacks to JJs. Scaling will require you to bring more JJs if you want to gain their benefits, lowering the tonnage available for heatsinks. Jumpsniper builds are already treading water when it comes to sustained DPS in comparison to SRM builds. Less heatsinks will further tip the close range fight in SRM mech's favor. JJ heat limits the amount of times a jumpsniper can jump and decreases their already poor heat to damage ratio. They will be able to jump less, therefore lowering their overall DPS. Less damage will be flying downrange. Fall damage puts in a consequence for using JJs, or rather using them poorly. Players unfamiliar with the tactic and JJ behavior will no longer be immediately effective without suffering consequences. Furthermore this limits the amount of jumpsniper spots in the game, at least without fall damage, as some spots require a full JJ burn leaving no fuel to feather your fall.

If necessary, Bishop Steiner's suggestion regarding JJ shake during the first part of the fall down could be implemented as well. Instead of .5 seconds (due to the 1 sec minimum fall for fall damage) I would probably put the duration at .3. In any case, this will further increase the skill floor of jumpsniping, though by itself it does little to really hurt top players. They'll just adapt.

To summarize, the reason I prefer JJ tweaks over JJ cone of fire is to:

1) Keep jumpsniping a valid tactic, but not an overpowering one.
2) Prevent impact on JJ lights, JJ mediums, and JJ brawlers.
3) Prevent the further impact of RNG mechanics in the game, which are inherently annoying in a competitive game. Given that CW will eventually exist, this game is competitive.
4) Increase the skill requirement to actually jump snipe effectively.
5) Introduce JJ drawbacks to balance out the dichotomy between JJ mechs and non-JJ mechs.

#560 Adiuvo

    Member

  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • The 1 Percent
  • The 1 Percent
  • 2,078 posts

Posted 23 June 2014 - 09:46 PM

View PostMizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 09:06 PM, said:

From my perspective, you haven't written anything about why it's good that heat sinks expand the heat cap, why ghost heat is worth keeping, why other alternatives are bad (beside sunk design time/cost), why we should be able to fire more than 1 alpha without shutting down and/or taking damage, among other things.

Basically, those are the things enabling the current meta and preventing any other loadouts from being effective.

I've seen you agree the current system needs fixed but defend changes that don't move the needle and penalize non-jumpshot mechs more than the jumpshooters.

I just don't get how your explanations jive with your stated preference for more dynamic gameplay.

High cooldown high damage weapons benefit more in a high dissipation environment than sustained items. Even if the dissipation rate is high enough that you could fire sustained forever, due to game mechanics that will definitely never change (ability to aim at specific components) the mech with the ability to shield will win out. The way to fix this specifically would be to either raise the heat enough on the low cooldown weapons that they won't be as efficient or to raise the damage on sustained items. This comes with its own balance issues.

MWO largely takes influence from TT for things like damage values, heat, etc.. Putting in a unique heat system (given the mechanics we have we can't just take the TT system) will require unique balancing for all of the weaponry. I don't exactly think adding more variables would be a good thing right now.

Heat sinks expanding the cap is a boon to all mechs, not just FLD mechs, and serves to keep the game pace as it is. If the heat cap was lowered games would become even longer. I think the 8 minute average is good enough.

Ghost heat is a dirty but necessary solution owing to the mechanics that come about from this game being a FPS. Even if the heatcap was 30 you'd still be able to fire a 2xPPC/Gauss mech, and thanks to the presumably increased cooldown, probably only need to wait an extra gauss shot cycle to fire again. If you want the cap even lower than 30 I'm not sure that's a game many people would want to play. Too slow.

In general I think there are numerous simpler ways to decrease the effectiveness of the current meta rather than gutting out the heat system and replacing it with something that requires brand new balancing. Let's go for simple first. Things have been getting better. Slowly, but they've been improving. The average alpha is not 45 anymore. Mechs are increasingly ammo limited. There'll be less tonnage available for extra DHS soon.





1 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 1 guests, 0 anonymous users