894 replies to this topic

[Ultimax]

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:05 AM, said:

Neither does heim...what he did do though was rack up kills against some of the best players in this game playing the best mechs in serious matches in which EVERYBODY wants to win badly.

I have nothing against Heim, his post wasn't a rant and he seems genuinely concerned about game balance even if I disagree that his analysis and conclusions are in synch with one another (because they are not).

I have been a part of premade teams in other games, I'm not unfamiliar with having a unique view of a game because the environment you're playing in is likely vastly different than the environment others are playing.


But being an elite video gamer, having a great deal of skill with aiming/playing and winning tournaments does not automatically mean that your logic is infallible, nor that your conclusions are all always complete and sound.

Not even the greatest PhDs in science get to be that unassailable (nor has Heim actually claimed to be such, but others in this thread are clearly guilty of this faulty logic).


I have no issue with the fact that he is likely an extremely skilled upper tier player. Good for him, I will look out for his twitch streams as I'm sure they could be a fun watch.

That being said, the entire first part of his post was an appeal to his own skill before his analysis.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 08:40 AM, said:

Are you kidding me? The true test of skill IS being able to win in whatever you are in. Cause skill isn't a measure of
of your gear. Its a measure of how you use what you got. If you are a champion cause you have the best gear, then you are not as good as you think. Champions are NOT one trick ponies.

Nobody is a 1trick pony in HoL (except Adi but thats ok)...but if I am going to prove my skill, I want to beat them in what they are best at, not win by some random lucky draw on a **** weapon or chassis.


Also this game and especially some playstyles have a skill ceiling, I would prefer my opponents be limited by that as little as possible. You can only be so good. There is no Kai's here because the game mechanics limit that from happening.

Edited by Wispsy, 24 June 2014 - 08:45 AM.

[Adiuvo]

SilentWolff, on 24 June 2014 - 08:37 AM, said:

It depends a lot on the team your are facing and their tactics imo. But we both agree that lights are fine in a 12 man, so I don't have much more to say on that subject. Heim appears to disagree with both of us however.



We played CSJA in random 3v3 and 4v4. Nothing meaningful and I had been on a hiatus for a month as well.
FYI, we have basically merged with them and are one team now.

And hey gratz on the win, but I will tell you we beat up on SJR as well, so much so we can't even get them to play us anymore. Hopefully now that we have the players again, we will be around for future 12 man's and we all can put our money where our mouth is.

Looking forward to seeing you guys in comp!

Didn't know about the merger, so it'll be awesome to see you in RHoD as well

[Shae Starfyre]

I just don't know; I feel it is premature, this thread.

Skill, VOIP, and perspective not withstanding, everyone's opinion is moot or at the very least narrowed to their limited capacity to engage every and all possible loadouts, team composition, personality, or environment to effectively provide adequate feedback.

Example; I decided to fully skill out the Diashi first, and tried so many different combinations that I still have yet to find my niche (Although I have been favoring the 3 CUAC20 with 2 C-Double heatsinks, and the rest Ammo - no secondary weapons) and find that this has been working best for me in my ELO bracket.

I am sure that this configuration is far from optimal or even considered competative, yet it works for me; positive K/D and W/L so far for this mech.

The Timberwolf I stated next, and frankly, (piloting two C ERLL and 1 CUAC20; no missiles, and CMG and full JJ); and despite the staggered firing of Clan AC; with a little practice, I can move those shots as the target moves, under the right conditions, and hit every shell on the same armor part; while it is not always, it can be done. One of the reasons, potentially, my Diashi build works for me.

But that's me. Would anyone else use this build? My W/L and K/D ratio are positive as well. Does this mean they are OP or Competative; I have no idea.

Does it mean that they need adjustment? I have no idea; as I cannot fathom the entire player base's numbers, compile the data of the entire player base, nor can I be so full of myself as to claim my way is best in thinking this through.

Yet, I do well enough to have fun in my setups which are never the norm.

So; what my question really is, if anyone in this thread thinks one way or the other, what is your over-all driving force for believing what you believe is OP or needs Nerfed or Changed?

Surely it wasn't all the non-pin-point Clan Autocannons that ripped my More-than-realistically-agile timberwolf to pieces because I misjuedged the lay of the battle; could it?

Or perhaps it was the thought that I should peak over this ridge "NOT" knowing that the enemy team is usually opposite to my location and may be in position with FLD weapon?

Or maybe it is because I have grown complacent in my light mech and decided that it's role was a medium to heavy combantant until now?

Maaaaay beeeee it's because I cannot effectively communicate with my team?

Maybe it is because there are public queus with teams?

Maybe.... Maybe.... Maybe.,..

At what point will anyone, ever, have enough information to know with absolute certainty what should or should not be the balanced equation to this game?

[Adiuvo]

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Nobody is a 1trick pony in HoL (except Adi but thats ok)...but if I am going to prove my skill, I want to beat them in what they are best at, not win by some random lucky draw on a **** weapon or chassis.

I hate you.

[Khobai]

Agreed. The meta is completely boring to watch.

One of the trademarks of a successful esport game like Dota2 is that you can play virtually any character and be competitive. Also every character is unique in how its played and counters and gets countered differently by other characters.

That diversity is something MWO lacks. Instead it has this stale meta where only 3-4 weapons and maybe 4-6 different mechs are used and everything else is written off as useless. Its simply not entertaining to watch.

Quote

If you stick both teams in random mechs, what are you going to do if one team gets the better set of random mechs? Even in stock, all mechs are not equal.

I said you rolled up 12 mechs randomly each game. Not 24. Both teams would have to use the same mechs obviously. Thats the only way to make it fair.

Quote

Nobody is a 1trick pony in HoL (except Adi but thats ok)...but if I am going to prove my skill, I want to beat them in what they are best at, not win by some random lucky draw on a **** weapon or chassis.

What if playing a random mech and beating other players in random mechs is what theyre best at? There are players out there that are arnt tied down to using one particular mech. Being able to competently pilot anything youre given is no less skillful than overspecializing in a single mech.

Im not saying we should do away with choose-your-own mech tournaments. We can have those too. But I think a tournament which randomizes the mechs that can be used also has a place in the competitive circuit.

Edited by Khobai, 24 June 2014 - 08:54 AM.

[Livewyr]

Another concern: While nerfing the Twolf, does this also intend to deal with with the current PPC(Gun) meta?

The TBR is currently popular with the clans because it can mount (do a degree) the VTR-DS build, and is the only one that can do so. Removing it from Meta ability without addressing the Meta, will just put the VTR-DS right back up top unchallenged. (That which has dominated unchallenged for many moons.)

[Jman5]

Pygar, on 24 June 2014 - 08:38 AM, said:

I've played 12mans, the "meta" is boring as watching dog **** dry bro...there is no balance or variety in that end of the game, and so I'll take any suggestions about balance from those players with golf ball sized "grain of salt".

Then don't run meta. You can succeed against a lot of meta teams out there with your own snowflake builds if you work at it. I derp around in a hunchback because I find it fun trying to make it work in a competitive scene and I would say I carry my weight.

When I read things like 'I don't play 12 man because meta is boring' I see that as code for: "I don't want to have to try for my wins. I lost a bunch, got discouraged and came up with this excuse to pad my ego."

Bring non-meta. Develop non-meta strategies and win a lot of games. But you will not be carried or handed victories. You have to put in effort at least equal to your opponents.

[Adiuvo]

Livewyr, on 24 June 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Another concern: While nerfing the Twolf, does this also intend to deal with with the current PPC(Gun) meta?

The TBR is currently popular with the clans because it can mount (do a degree) the VTR-DS build, and is the only one that can do so. Removing it from Meta ability without addressing the Meta, will just put the VTR-DS right back up top unchallenged. (That which has dominated unchallenged for many moons.)

Ideally the JJ scaling and fall damage (on the PTS today) will help with that by forcing the Victor to bring more JJs if it wants to jumpsnipe. That, like with the Timberwolf, gives it less room for heatsinks and it's already somewhat hot when it comes to sustained fights.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Except they said they wanted clans balanced so that they can drop normally with other mechs in 12v12...

That isn't the game I was promised. I was promised the Clan Invasion. On a day=day timeline. I chose the Lyrans cause they are front line and have my preferred mix of Mechs and I would be facing the two most fearsome invaders & back in 1986 Joe was a Lyran.

Now I will be facing two enemies barely more formidable that the Dracs and Marik. I could face that in 3025. Not the game I was sold.

[R Razor]

Livewyr, on 24 June 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Another concern: While nerfing the Twolf, does this also intend to deal with with the current PPC(Gun) meta?

The TBR is currently popular with the clans because it can mount (do a degree) the VTR-DS build, and is the only one that can do so. Removing it from Meta ability without addressing the Meta, will just put the VTR-DS right back up top unchallenged. (That which has dominated unchallenged for many moons.)

Which is precisely why the nerf was called for most likely. Claims can be made that the OP also owns a Timberwolf, but do all of his team mates and if not, are they willing to pay for that early access? Who knows, but the timing of this cry for a nerf makes one wonder.

[Adiuvo]

Jman5, on 24 June 2014 - 08:46 AM, said:

Then don't run meta. You can succeed against a lot of meta teams out there with your own snowflake builds if you work at it. I derp around in a hunchback because I find it fun trying to make it work in a competitive scene and I would say I carry my weight.

When I read things like 'I don't play 12 man because meta is boring' I see that as code for: "I don't want to have to try for my wins. I lost a bunch, got discouraged and came up with this excuse to pad my ego."

Bring non-meta. Develop non-meta strategies and win a lot of games. But you will not be carried or handed victories. You have to put in effort at least equal to your opponents.

Confirmed, Jman for like the only Hunchback pilot in high Elo who pulls good damage even in the stompiest of stomps.

R Razor, on 24 June 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

Which is precisely why the nerf was called for most likely. Claims can be made that the OP also owns a Timberwolf, but do all of his team mates and if not, are they willing to pay for that early access? Who knows, but the timing of this cry for a nerf makes one wonder.

All of HoL basically has a clan pack, or at least a Mad Cat/Daishi.

Edited by Adiuvo, 24 June 2014 - 08:48 AM.

[Livewyr]

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

Ideally the JJ scaling and fall damage (on the PTS today) will help with that by forcing the Victor to bring more JJs if it wants to jumpsnipe. That, like with the Timberwolf, gives it less room for heatsinks and it's already somewhat hot when it comes to sustained fights.

This could be precisely what was needed to bring the TBR in line as well. (As I said before, I would prefer JJs be all or nothing...)

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 08:47 AM, said:

That isn't the game I was promised. I was promised the Clan Invasion. On a day=day timeline. I chose the Lyrans cause they are front line and have my preferred mix of Mechs and I would be facing the two most fearsome invaders & back in 1986 Joe was a Lyran.

Now I will be facing two enemies barely more formidable that the Dracs and Marik. I could face that in 3025. Not the game I was sold.

I was promised role warfare and every class being fun and useful....times change buddy...

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:43 AM, said:

Nobody is a 1trick pony in HoL (except Adi but thats ok)...but if I am going to prove my skill, I want to beat them in what they are best at, not win by some random lucky draw on a **** weapon or chassis.


Also this game and especially some playstyles have a skill ceiling, I would prefer my opponents be limited by that as little as possible. You can only be so good. There is no Kai's here because the game mechanics limit that from happening.

Sir the best will win no matter what they drive. Billy Sims was arguably one of the best running backs ever. And he won that title in spite of being a running back for the Detroit Lions! Can you imagine the records he could have set as a Cowboy? Sims is the example that represents Kho and my position. Are you really as good as you think if you only win your rank using One style of play, or one type of weapon? Or are you just a one trick pony who hasn't met the new best?

[wanderer]

Quote

so what is your solution?

Mentioned repeatedly in the thread- if you're in midair, you should have crosshair shake. Period. No cutting your jets and instant perfect aim as you fall like a brick.

Burst fire AC's. Period. Splash-effect PPC's. Period. And if Clan ER PPCs are so gawd-tier, make them 4/7/4 splash, to go with the IS ERPPC/PPC being 2/6/2. Done.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 08:55 AM, said:

Sir the best will win no matter what they drive. Billy Sims was arguably one of the best running backs ever. And he won that title in spite of being a running back for the Detroit Lions! Can you imagine the records he could have set as a Cowboy? Sims is the example that represents Kho and my position. Are you really as good as you think if you only win your rank using One style of play, or one type of weapon? Or are you just a one trick pony who hasn't met the new best?

What? We are not 1trick ponies...people are just complaining some DS pilots are...Lords is made of people like Sims taken from teams that are lacking...I think every pilot is experienced and capable beyond almost all others that play at any mech or strat...but if you want to win a free hero mech (and they are expensive for some of us) then you bring that with the most optimal loadout and play the strat that most emphasis their strengths and diminishes their weaknesses...that is how you be the best in any game...before the match has even loaded the game has already begun...


This is not an arrogant post btw...I try to look at these things objectively and not fudge over mine or other flaws. Humility is great and all that but I am a big supporter of honesty above all else when dealing with people (myself included).

Edited by Wispsy, 24 June 2014 - 09:01 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Livewyr, on 24 June 2014 - 08:45 AM, said:

Another concern: While nerfing the Twolf, does this also intend to deal with with the current PPC(Gun) meta?

The TBR is currently popular with the clans because it can mount (do a degree) the VTR-DS build, and is the only one that can do so. Removing it from Meta ability without addressing the Meta, will just put the VTR-DS right back up top unchallenged. (That which has dominated unchallenged for many moons.)

Though I kinda agree, the Timber Wolf is currently popular because it is a TIMBER WOLF. It surpassed the Marauder 2 decades ago... mostly because Harmony Gold. I mean come on it IS a very close proximity of a Marauder.

And though it isn't a standard of the universe the game is in, Popping out of cover, shooting and ducking back is combat 101. That ground units have a speed limit keeps us from poke and shoot like pop tarts can.

[Blacksoul1987]

wanderer, on 24 June 2014 - 08:58 AM, said:

Mentioned repeatedly in the thread- if you're in midair, you should have crosshair shake. Period. No cutting your jets and instant perfect aim as you fall like a brick.

Burst fire AC's. Period. Splash-effect PPC's. Period. And if Clan ER PPCs are so gawd-tier, make them 4/7/4 splash, to go with the IS ERPPC/PPC being 2/6/2. Done.

so direwolf's can still slam just 44pt pinpoint alphas instead of 50? not sure that's enough to stop light mechs from being 1 shotted.

[Adiuvo]

Blacksoul1987, on 24 June 2014 - 09:01 AM, said:

so direwolf's can still slam just 44pt pinpoint alphas instead of 50? not sure that's enough to stop light mechs from being 1 shotted.

If you frontload ALL of your side torso armor, you'll survive with 4 points left!... but you'll die from just 2 PPCs out the back