894 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Gyrok, on 23 June 2014 - 06:57 PM, said:

The mobility is not going anywhere...it is the HALLMARK of the mech...and it can only carry so many things because of that mobility. I know it is impossible for some people to fathom...however, the reality is, THAT IS WHAT CLAN MECHS DO...they go fast and many have limited loadouts to achieve that speed. Consider yourselves fortunate we are not running stock only...then clan mechs would still do 89 kph after speed tweak while most IS chassis would struggle to break 71 kph, and lights would be only marginally faster than Clan mechs with inferior weapon loadouts... THANK THE HEAVENS that we cannot put clan tech in IS mechs...you think clan mechs are OP? Let them play by IS customization rules...then see what happens...

So at this point you're just kind of admitting that it's overpowered, and are just saying, "TOO BAD, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT! Just be glad it's not worse!"

I know it's supposed to be like that, next to the Loki, the MadCat was my favorite Ride in MW4... And the thing was a ridiculous beat stick. And that was going up against other clan mechs, as well as Inner Sphere omnimechs.

And yeah.. most folks knew this was how it was gonna be before the mech pack came out. We called it a while back... the thing is a total beast.

[Gyrok]

Vassago Rain, on 23 June 2014 - 07:01 PM, said:

Their reputation, like my reputation for being an elite hacker on steroids, and the worst player in the game, is almost entirely made up by bad pubbies and legends coming out of the ghetto.

Did you know that when I introduce myself as LORD VASSAGO RAIN in pub drops, they all think I'm really with the LORDS? I mean, come on.

That is the mentality you deal with in pub drops, and frankly, they parrot whatever they hear because they know no better.

The fact that players at the top tier are sitting back saying..."Well, the IS can have nice things, but not the clans" is literally mind blowing...I mean come on...WTF?

[Turboferret]

Sky Legacy, on 23 June 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

wow Zensei you're a horrid pilot either that or a troll. He goes up against one of the top pilots in the game in a Centurion

Still playing like it's early 2013 I see.

[Sky Legacy]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 06:45 PM, said:

Yep. Doing that requires an IS XL engine, which dies with one side torso gone. The Mad Cat doesn't.

Big difference in survivability between those two due to that.

Yeah I'd say here's the huge differences that make the Madcat OP

1. XL engine @ 90kph that behaves like a STD (need to kill 2 torsos)

2. is able to equip dual ERPPC with gauss and therefore be effective at range and close range brawling also as opposed to Cataphract that can can't do squat at <90meters with the PPC's.

However I'd be real interested to see Proton's Dual Gauss + ERPPC Cataphract against Heimdelight Madcat gauss + dual CERPPC I bet the cataphract will win with its higher PPFLD

[Vassago Rain]

Sky Legacy, on 23 June 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

wow Zensei you're a horrid pilot either that or a troll. He goes up against one of the top pilots in the game in a Centurion

I'm just amazed heim took enough pity on him to accept the challenge. That match against sniper god leo, too.

My god.

Even I have better aim, and I have greatly reduced vision.

Edited by Vassago Rain, 23 June 2014 - 07:09 PM.

[Gyrok]

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 07:04 PM, said:

So at this point you're just kind of admitting that it's overpowered, and are just saying, "TOO BAD, IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE LIKE THAT! Just be glad it's not worse!"

I know it's supposed to be like that, next to the Loki, the MadCat was my favorite Ride in MW4... And the thing was a ridiculous beat stick. And that was going up against other clan mechs, as well as Inner Sphere omnimechs.

And yeah.. most folks knew this was how it was gonna be before the mech pack came out. We called it a while back... the thing is a total beast.

No, you misread...it pays a HUGE price in tonnage to do that, and the crit slots for Endo/FF that are locked in place prevent you from being able to so much as carry a single UAC20 in a torso...meanwhile a 35T IS mech can be rigged to carry an AC20. Granted it is ridiculously slow, and carries almost no ammo, however, it can still be done.

THAT is the difference, if the Clan mechs were reskinned IS mechs, what on earth would be the point at all? Clan mechs go faster and have good durability (considering...), however, some are cursed with horrid hitboxes, some cannot carry a loadout that a mech their size should be able to carry at all, and others are cursed with hard points that number so high you can count the total on a single hand. Now, granted, you can exchange "omni" pods...though you do not get the real omni pods that mount literally anything...you get a piece off another mech that you can swap out with different hard points. If you never played TT you do not understand how nerfed the clan mechs are ALREADY...in TT they were so ridiculously OP we all knew they would get dialed back. I personally think that of all the things they actually have done, clan mechs might be the best execution so far of anything. To take that and break it because the steering wheel underhive cries foul and a few comp players come out and complain the Victor got dethroned is a travesty...

Guess what? Before the Victor there was a best mech too...the Highlander...it is still good, in some ways better than the Victor POST nerf hammer of doom. However, it was all the cries of foul from the steering wheel underhive that got that nerf bat swung, and frankly, I refuse to accept them steering balance...we are intelligent people, the meta will change, you can adapt...

[wanderer]

L e 0, on 23 June 2014 - 06:37 PM, said:

specificity said id wreak you at range and if you could to fight me at range and win what happend? never said id win a brawl you took the one win and fled the scene. And i hit every shot on the crossing you missed all of them but one.

I watched the vid. He basically gave you multiple shots at range. Freebies. You sprayed his entire 'Mech with fire.

And he still crushed you when you got to close range. Surgically. Nice shots into the terrain as he closed in, BTW.

But hey, if you want to be mad, be mad. He's better than you are, and saying "I FIGHT BETTAR LONG RANGE YOU SUX" really isn't the case when he literally gave you open shots in the water to take....and you managed to hit half the 'Mech once or twice each.

[Roland]

Quote

No, you misread...it pays a HUGE price in tonnage to do that, and the crit slots for Endo/FF that are locked in place prevent you from being able to so much as carry a single UAC20 in a torso...meanwhile a 35T IS mech can be rigged to carry an AC20. Granted it is ridiculously slow, and carries almost no ammo, however, it can still be done.

But who cares?
You act like this is some kind of crippling deficiency. It's obviously not.
Not being able to carry an AC20 in a torso isn't a huge price to pay. It's irrelevant.

It's like saying, "The Victor can't carry 7 PPC's like a battlemaster. That's a huge price to pay!"

Quote

However, it was all the cries of foul from the steering wheel underhive that got that nerf bat swung, and frankly, I refuse to accept them steering balance...we are intelligent people, the meta will change, you can adapt...

The meta doesn't change based on random acts of god.

The meta is based on what's in the game.

You just aren't really looking forward much, and viewing the actual state of balance.. instead you're imagining a game where you have a continued advantage over players who aren't willing to pay money to drive that mech. But eventually that paywall will drop, and then what do you think will happen?

Assuming, of course, that you don't drive off players who get killed by that mech and can't play it themselves due to the paywall.

[Sky Legacy]

Gyrok, on 23 June 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

No, you misread...it pays a HUGE price in tonnage to do that, and the crit slots for Endo/FF that are locked in place prevent you from being able to so much as carry a single UAC20 in a torso...meanwhile a 35T IS mech can be rigged to carry an AC20. Granted it is ridiculously slow, and carries almost no ammo, however, it can still be done.

THAT is the difference, if the Clan mechs were reskinned IS mechs, what on earth would be the point at all? Clan mechs go faster and have good durability (considering...), however, some are cursed with horrid hitboxes, some cannot carry a loadout that a mech their size should be able to carry at all, and others are cursed with hard points that number so high you can count the total on a single hand. Now, granted, you can exchange "omni" pods...though you do not get the real omni pods that mount literally anything...you get a piece off another mech that you can swap out with different hard points. If you never played TT you do not understand how nerfed the clan mechs are ALREADY...in TT they were so ridiculously OP we all knew they would get dialed back. I personally think that of all the things they actually have done, clan mechs might be the best execution so far of anything. To take that and break it because the steering wheel underhive cries foul and a few comp players come out and complain the Victor got dethroned is a travesty...

Guess what? Before the Victor there was a best mech too...the Highlander...it is still good, in some ways better than the Victor POST nerf hammer of doom. However, it was all the cries of foul from the steering wheel underhive that got that nerf bat swung, and frankly, I refuse to accept them steering balance...we are intelligent people, the meta will change, you can adapt...

everything you say is fine as long as when CW comes it's 12 vs. 10 cus there's no way 12 v 12 IS vs. Clan is fair.

[Vassago Rain]

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

But who cares?
You act like this is some kind of crippling deficiency. It's obviously not.
Not being able to carry an AC20 in a torso isn't a huge price to pay. It's irrelevant.

It's like saying, "The Victor can't carry 7 PPC's like a battlemaster. That's a huge price to pay!"



The meta doesn't change based on random acts of god.

The meta is based on what's in the game.

You just aren't really looking forward much, and viewing the actual state of balance.. instead you're imagining a game where you have a continued advantage over players who aren't willing to pay money to drive that mech. But eventually that paywall will drop, and then what do you think will happen?

Assuming, of course, that you don't drive off players who get killed by that mech and can't play it themselves due to the paywall.

He blew 240 dollars on clan gundams. It's in his best interest to keep clans unchanged.

Stop feeding him.

The second clan robots become available for c-bills, everybody, no matter how casual or bad they may be, will see that clans are a problem.

[wanderer]

Vassago Rain, on 23 June 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

He blew 240 dollars on clan gundams. It's in his best interest to keep clans unchanged.

Stop feeding him.

The second clan robots become available for c-bills, everybody, no matter how casual or bad they may be, will see that clans are a problem.

Watching Jack mow through Clanners left and right in a -D-DC, I'm not so sure about that. Where Clan 'Mechs show issues is where IS ones did, because anywhere PGI didn't lay down the nerfhammer on much, there we see the rough spots of IS play magnified.

Thus, the CERPPC/Gauss Timber Wolf. It maximizes it's Clan advantages and minimizes it's Clan weak spots, hews to the meta, and hence we have 75-ton metadeathmachines.

The fixes have to come to the meta itself, rather than going "oops, Clanners are OP". That's jumpsniping and the same weapons you see slapped on a Dragon Slayer or a Timber Wolf.

[Koniks]

Adiuvo, on 23 June 2014 - 03:10 PM, said:

When your DPS is triple it doesn't particularly matter that some of it is spread.

Those ridges are what make it a good sniping map. You can ask any competitive player, "Is Caustic a good brawling map?" They'll all answer no. You can ask any high elo player that too and you'll get the same answer.

No, the tonnage restrictions were not tighter. 720 tons is one of the middling tonnages for Run Hot or Die, which is the primary competitive tournament. 720 tons is also just about the most popular. It's certainly the most balanced out of the lot.

If you want to discuss changes to the heat system I'm just saying it'd probably be more of a primary topic than trying to shoehorn it in this thread. I don't think the current heat system is so messed up that we need an entirely new one, nor do I think that the proposed system will be free of unique problems.

When your DPS is triple, it matters that it's not effective past 180m and that you can't get to that range without first being crippled by focused jumpshot fire.

Any high elo player would say that? You're starting to reveal that maybe their total knowledge of all things MWO isn't so unimpeachable. Especially when you just posted a video showing how a mixed deck could make an inferior team competitive with you on that map despite not having the SRM fix in place. Your logic isn't holding up here. The ridges make it good for jumpshots. But the distance to them is about equal for both sides. So jumpshot mechs can't take the heights unchallenged and deliver free shots at brawlers. A coordinated push can be made into jumpshot positions without first getting mauled. But if the map is only going to appear by random chance, then yeah, you're not going to risk a brawler deck because Alpine might show up instead.

I'm saying the premise of heim's post is wrong. Talking about balancing Clans because they're OP is outright the wrong approach. If we want to talk about balance, it needs to start with the heat system. Koniving's already done the homework and posted the details on it. I'm referencing his work here because it's absolutely relevant.

It's on face easier to balance a low cap, high dissipation system than the kludgy thing we have.

Edited by Mizeur, 23 June 2014 - 07:34 PM.

[Gyrok]

Roland, on 23 June 2014 - 07:19 PM, said:

But who cares?
You act like this is some kind of crippling deficiency. It's obviously not.
Not being able to carry an AC20 in a torso isn't a huge price to pay. It's irrelevant.

It's like saying, "The Victor can't carry 7 PPC's like a battlemaster. That's a huge price to pay!"



The meta doesn't change based on random acts of god.

The meta is based on what's in the game.

You just aren't really looking forward much, and viewing the actual state of balance.. instead you're imagining a game where you have a continued advantage over players who aren't willing to pay money to drive that mech. But eventually that paywall will drop, and then what do you think will happen?

Assuming, of course, that you don't drive off players who get killed by that mech and can't play it themselves due to the paywall.

To respond in kind...

"who cares?"

Additionally...I have lobbied for 10 vs 12 since clan mechs were announced...before we even knew what they would be...why? Because that is how it should be...clans always fought superior numbers...balance it that way...ok, fine...I will fight outnumbered...whooptie doo. Leave the TW alone.

Edited by Gyrok, 23 June 2014 - 07:37 PM.

[DeathlyEyes]

Clan ER PPCs are not the problem. The biggest issue right now is that all laser duration are too long. Mechs can't climb steep hills to get in and out of cover or close to brawl range. If you hug something packing 2 er ppc then they will die because their heat management is not nearly as good. They are about as powerful as IS PPCs with added splash damage that shouldn't matter anyway (since high ELO players hit the same spot anyway). All the splash damage does is pad end game stats.

Reducing laser duration will do well to bring lasers into line with other FLD weapons. Jump Jets as they stand are over powered because they are the only system capable of getting a mech in and out of cover. Mechwarrior 4 didn't have this problem so hill humping was a viable tactic. As it stands now, in a warhawk/stalker/etc I can fire and by the time im back in cover my weapons have reloaded. I may as well just stand out in the open at that point. With a poptart I am able to hide in less than a second.

Not knowing the map is another big issue. Timberwolves/Dragon Slayers/Poptarts in general always work well. If a map is setup for a brawl push poptarts can try to cut the enemies down as they advance. If it is a sniping orientated map, well good luck to any brawlers. Throw in hill climb slowing down some brawlers and you get a pretty nasty situation. Map design is horrible. Alpine has literally no path for a brawler to take. Tera Therma is just a mad dash to the middle, usually the team to make it there first with considerable fire power wins by focusing down enemies as they enter.

Team size doesn't help either. With the number of players on each team, a well disciplined group can focus down mechs quite quickly. If 6 mechs shoot the same mech, it is likely to die. Reducing to 8v8 should mitigate some of these "instagibs" that keep happening.

Edited by SLDF DeathlyEyes, 23 June 2014 - 07:39 PM.

[Sky Legacy]

Vassago Rain, on 23 June 2014 - 07:09 PM, said:

I'm just amazed heim took enough pity on him to accept the challenge. That match against sniper god leo, too.

My god.

Even I have better aim, and I have greatly reduced vision.

His aim was great, he was hitting him at will at long range. It's his brawling / upclose infighting that left much to be desired. You don't win a fight against a top player by standing in place and rotating and letting him surgically remove your weaponry.

[Roland]

Gyrok, on 23 June 2014 - 07:35 PM, said:

To respond in kind...

"who cares?"

Additionally...I have lobbied for 10 vs 12 since clan mechs were announced...before we even knew what they would be...why? Because that is how it should be...

Well, "how it should be" is that the clans have dramatically superior technology to the IS at this point...
And if you aren't one of the best pilots in the galaxy, then you don't get to drive mechs for the clans. You get to be a tech that grovels beneath the feet of your trueborn mechwarrior overlords, if you're lucky.

You don't get to be head of a major clan's galaxy just because you want to.

Is that really how you want it to be?

[Shredhead]

Gyrok, on 23 June 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:

No, you misread...it pays a HUGE price in tonnage to do that, and the crit slots for Endo/FF that are locked in place prevent you from being able to so much as carry a single UAC20 in a torso...meanwhile a 35T IS mech can be rigged to carry an AC20. Granted it is ridiculously slow, and carries almost no ammo, however, it can still be done.

THAT is the difference, if the Clan mechs were reskinned IS mechs, what on earth would be the point at all? Clan mechs go faster and have good durability (considering...), however, some are cursed with horrid hitboxes, some cannot carry a loadout that a mech their size should be able to carry at all, and others are cursed with hard points that number so high you can count the total on a single hand. Now, granted, you can exchange "omni" pods...though you do not get the real omni pods that mount literally anything...you get a piece off another mech that you can swap out with different hard points. If you never played TT you do not understand how nerfed the clan mechs are ALREADY...in TT they were so ridiculously OP we all knew they would get dialed back. I personally think that of all the things they actually have done, clan mechs might be the best execution so far of anything. To take that and break it because the steering wheel underhive cries foul and a few comp players come out and complain the Victor got dethroned is a travesty...

Guess what? Before the Victor there was a best mech too...the Highlander...it is still good, in some ways better than the Victor POST nerf hammer of doom. However, it was all the cries of foul from the steering wheel underhive that got that nerf bat swung, and frankly, I refuse to accept them steering balance...we are intelligent people, the meta will change, you can adapt...

lol

"Pays a heavy price", most ridiculous statement ever! 375 XL that doesn't pop when a ST is destroyed, 27.5 tons and 33 (!) slots left to play with, when all clan equipment needs less slots and weight compared to IS tech. You even get Endo and Ferro for the price of (fixed) 14 slots. Nearly forgot free CASE everywhere.
Let's compare that to the Phract 3D. 340 XL that drops when a ST is popped, no 5 free extra HS, 32.5 tons and 28 (!) (with Endo for 14) slots left. Comparing the equipment both can pack the exact same loadout because the clan tech is 5 tons lighter, 27% HE on the Phract compared to 34% on the Mad Cat. Less armor, speed and survivability on the Phract.
Who would win if both pilots have about equal skill, I wonder?

Edited by Shredhead, 23 June 2014 - 07:48 PM.

[GreyGriffin]

I'm so glad that this important discussion on perspective was derailed by 4 pages of e-peen waving.

[Adiuvo]

Mizeur, on 23 June 2014 - 07:32 PM, said:

When your DPS is triple, it matters that it's not effective past 180m and that you can't get to that range without first being crippled by focused jumpshot fire.

Any high elo player would say that? You're starting to reveal that maybe their total knowledge of all things MWO isn't so unimpeachable. Especially when you just posted a video showing how a mixed deck could make an inferior team competitive with you on that map despite not having the SRM fix in place. Your logic isn't holding up here. The ridges make it good for jumpshots. But the distance to them is about equal for both sides. So jumpshot mechs can't take the heights unchallenged and deliver free shots at brawlers. A coordinated push can be made into jumpshot positions without first getting mauled. But if the map is only going to appear by random chance, then yeah, you're not going to risk a brawler deck because Alpine might show up instead.

I'm saying the premise of heim's post is wrong. Talking about balancing Clans because they're OP is outright the wrong approach. If we want to talk about balance, it needs to start with the heat system. Koniving's already done the homework and posted the details on it. I'm referencing his work here because it's absolutely relevant.

It's on face easier to balance a low cap, high dissipation system than the kludgy thing we have.

You're ignoring the proof I've provided you. The match is that proof, and you've tried this entire time to hand-wave it off. You were entirely wrong on the tonnage point, you're wrong on the gap closing point (with IS mechs) and you're wrong on the effective damage point. A general brawler is going to move in the 80kph range, faster if it's a medium mech. This is a little over 20m/s. Closing in from 270m to 180m is not going to take that long.

No competitive match starts out with a rush. You need to know what the enemy team is bringing. Even 228th didn't flat rush. This allows both teams to set up on the ridges. Caustic is *not* a good brawling map due to this. Crossing Caldera is dangerous and playing the circle game is pointless for a brawling team - you'll constantly be outtraded by jumpsnipers. The only reason their drop deck worked is because we screwed up on the scouting, we had stragglers, and we set up in a terrible position. We should have gone right and played a circle like normal.

If you think the premise of his post is wrong, that's great. I don't agree, and I don't think it'll ever be realistic for them to ever gut the current heat system and change it.

[Zordicron]

Ug. Another "I am a super tourny winner and so my opinion > others" thread.

Its not clans, its not mechs, its FLD.

I made this stupid dragon, with 2 PPC and an AC10, not even true meta, but close enough. It's mental, I mean it's a freekin dragon, the anti meta mech right? But it is easy to get kills or even just disarm a mech, because it is quick and has good range. bad hitbox, no JJ, low mounted arm weapons mostly. 30 Pinpoint dmg (easy enough to get within the actual optimal range) means unsuspecting mech gets to watch his CT turn orange or red or lose his arm or whatever.

The worst offender of everything, JJ or IS or clan or whatever, is the IS PPC yet. the heat is low enough you can rip them off a lot, they pair well with a couple of the low heat ballistics to create precision gank weapons. JJ makes you able to use cover, but they are maybe 25% of the issue.

As for the timberwolf, i dunno, I see them blown to bits handily all the time. Of course, I dont drop in 12 mans(you know, like most people dont) because the gameplay turns my stomach. I also have little trouble moving in on the poptart doofs and chasing them off.

Also, the comment "the comp play trickles down" and the other one "the pubbies just parrot what they hear because they dont know any better" LOL oh man, put yourself on a higher pedestal please, you are still within view from the ground. Where do you get your hats? Certainly not from retail, they dont make them big enough- must be tailored.

This is what I have seen change:

TTK is less, when you get a blob of brawl assaults clan etc in a confrontation, because purpose built clan DPS brawlers combined with SRM fixes for the eternal Atlas SRM/AC20 brawlers makes focus fire at 200M a gankfest. I dont see much change in TTK for the sniper crowd, the alphas are about the same as always. Clan weapons run hotter for it too.

More AMS in pug matches- players are noticing AMS deals with clan LRM extremely well. Side effect of IS LRM's also being reduced means I see less LRM stalkers lately, and I have yet to see much in the way of clan LRM boats.

The rest, MEH it is way to soon to tell how it will play out. If anything should get changed, IS autocannons should get burstfire(even if it is less pellets then clan to make up for range, single shells need to go) and IS ppc is just not hot enough/too easy to pair with other stuff. I would be ok with PPC getting some splash dmg like maybe, 7 dmg to target and 3 splash instead of ten on target, but then IS ERPPC I would leave alone. This JJ and fall dmg nonsense will fail at its purpose, and we will still have FLD issues until tey spread it out somehow.