894 replies to this topic

[Khobai]

Quote

Yes there are...I fail to see how that means everybody piloting a DragonSlayer at any point (and who would not...it is hands down the best IS mech by miles) should be painted with the worst possible assumptions...

They shouldnt be painted with the worst possible assumptions. But conversely winning a tournament in a Dragon Slayer, when all you play is a Dragon Slayer, isnt something that should be celebrated either. Youre not taking players out of their comfort zone or throwing them a curve ball by making them play something less-than-optimal.

Now if you won a tournament that rolled up 12 random mechs each game... that would be a pretty amazing feat. Because then players have to work with what theyre given and it becomes a truer test of skill.

[Charronn]

This thread is getting silly and out of hand,please close it.

Edited by Charronn, 24 June 2014 - 08:26 AM.

[Livewyr]

Question: (Aside from whether I support this or not.)

How do you nerf the TBR, without turning it into the VTR-DS, or useless? The only thing outstanding about it, is its engine, which costs it a lot elsewhere.

[Wispsy]

Khobai, on 24 June 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

They shouldnt be painted with the worst possible assumptions. But conversely winning a tournament in a Dragon Slayer, when all you play is a Dragon Slayer, isnt something that should be celebrated either. Youre not taking players out of their comfort zone or throwing them a curve ball by making them play something less-than-optimal.

Wait what? Everybody is playing the mechs they are best in as optimized as possible allowing the full range of equipment available in this game...throwing curve balls to catch some guys random weakness through rng is hardly the best measure of skill in this game...although I guess it would prove who the most all rounded is...but it is better to specialize in games then be super all rounded because super all rounder guys get beaten individually by specialists...

[Adiuvo]

Livewyr, on 24 June 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Question: (Aside from whether I support this or not.)

How do you nerf the TBR, without turning it into the VTR-DS, or useless? The only thing outstanding about it, is its engine, which costs it a lot elsewhere.

The more detailed is answer is somewhere in the first 15 pages of the thread... but basically some minor agility tweaks would be warranted but the best option would be to force it to equip 4 JJs like the Summoner. Only problem is that the Timberwolf-S, the one with JJs, can only fit in 2 max due to those being the only free CT slots. What could be done instead would be to force those 2, but make them weigh 2 tons rather than 1.

This way it won't be able to mount 2xERPPC/1xGauss as effectively but it'll still be able to make use of 1xERPPC/Gauss or SRM/LRM based builds.

[Harathan]

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 11:47 AM, said:

What the general populace brings doesn't really matter anyways.

And thats the moment the thread became pointless. Any valid point the OP may have made, rendered moot because it's essentially e-peen strokers wanting the game to be balanced for them (the minority) rather than the wider player base (the majority).

[Wispsy]

Livewyr, on 24 June 2014 - 08:25 AM, said:

Question: (Aside from whether I support this or not.)

How do you nerf the TBR, without turning it into the VTR-DS, or useless? The only thing outstanding about it, is its engine, which costs it a lot elsewhere.

The engine costs practically nothing compared to IS engines...you can nerf the Timberwolf in all areas and it would still be one of the best mechs...it is unlikely to ever be useless unless the game changes very drastically.

But many suggestions have been put forward throughout many pages of this thread, feel free to read some!

Edited by Wispsy, 24 June 2014 - 08:32 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Harathan, on 24 June 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

And thats the moment the thread became pointless. Any valid point the OP may have made, rendered moot because it's essentially e-peen strokers wanting the game to be balanced for them (the minority) rather than the wider player base (the majority).

That wasn't the point of what I posted... but OK.

[Wispsy]

Harathan, on 24 June 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

And thats the moment the thread became pointless. Any valid point the OP may have made, rendered moot because it's essentially e-peen strokers wanting the game to be balanced for them (the minority) rather than the wider player base (the majority).

So how do you balance things for the masses when basically any weapon can be completely overpowered and it makes no difference at all if nobody can aim it well enough to hit the same guy twice.

Not saying the masses cannot do this..but effectively this is why you balance for people with good mechanics..

Edited by Wispsy, 24 June 2014 - 08:35 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Vassago Rain, on 23 June 2014 - 07:21 PM, said:

He blew 240 dollars on clan gundams. It's in his best interest to keep clans unchanged.

Stop feeding him.

The second clan robots become available for c-bills, everybody, no matter how casual or bad they may be, will see that clans are a problem.

You are almost mistaken. The only reason the Clans will be a problem is that in CW they will be striving to reach Earth. How powerful they are is not meant to be questioned. Only scared sheep and those unfamiliar with the setting will whine like little girls. To me, Clan Omnis are not yet powerful enough.

[Drasari]

Harathan, on 24 June 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

And thats the moment the thread became pointless. Any valid point the OP may have made, rendered moot because it's essentially e-peen strokers wanting the game to be balanced for them (the minority) rather than the wider player base (the majority).

Exactly this.

[Harathan]

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 08:32 AM, said:

That wasn't the point of what I posted... but OK.

That was exactly the point you made, it's the same agenda you always push.

Adiuvo, on 22 June 2014 - 12:10 PM, said:

I care about what top people and top teams in the game are doing.

And that's all you care about. You, the rest of HoL, you believe you are the only valid playerbase the game has.

Despite any protestations of altruistic intent, you don't want top-down balance. You want top-only balance because you genuinly believe that the only people really playing the game, and therefore the only ones who's opinions matter, are the ones who are playing the game as if it's a professional e-sport.

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:33 AM, said:

So how do you balance things for the masses when basically any weapon can be completely overpowered and it makes no difference at all if nobody can aim it well enough to hit the same guy twice.

Thankyou for the brilliant example of elitism. Only the top-tier players are really playing, the rest of us are drooling keyboard munchers. Got it.

Edited by Harathan, 24 June 2014 - 08:42 AM.

[Khobai]

Quote

Wait what? Everybody is playing the mechs they are best in as optimized as possible allowing the full range of equipment available in this game...throwing curve balls to catch some guys random weakness through rng is hardly the best measure of skill in this game...although I guess it would prove who the most all rounded is...but it is better to specialize in games then be super all rounded because super all rounder guys get beaten individually by specialists...

It is the best measure of overall skill though. Especially as a team. Because you have to take a crappy set of mechs and turn them into something you can win with. It tests every skillset from customization, putting together a capable team, and formulating new strategies/tactics that work with your specific set of mechs.

Nobody cares if a team of all Dragon Slayers wins a tournament. People dont want to see that !@#$. Its boring and expected.

[Jman5]

Just a tip to everyone here. The key to making a successful balance post is to make your topic as narrow and focused as possible. Otherwise the jokers on this forum will derail it into oblivion.

[Wispsy]

Joseph Mallan, on 24 June 2014 - 08:34 AM, said:

You are almost mistaken. The only reason the Clans will be a problem is that in CW they will be striving to reach Earth. How powerful they are is not meant to be questioned. Only scared sheep and those unfamiliar with the setting will whine like little girls. To me, Clan Omnis are not yet powerful enough.

Except they said they wanted clans balanced so that they can drop normally with other mechs in 12v12...

[Livewyr]

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 08:30 AM, said:

The more detailed is answer is somewhere in the first 15 pages of the thread... but basically some minor agility tweaks would be warranted but the best option would be to force it to equip 4 JJs like the Summoner. Only problem is that the Timberwolf-S, the one with JJs, can only fit in 2 max due to those being the only free CT slots. What could be done instead would be to force those 2, but make them weigh 2 tons rather than 1.

This way it won't be able to mount 2xERPPC/1xGauss as effectively but it'll still be able to make use of 1xERPPC/Gauss or SRM/LRM based builds.

I think any mech that mounts JJs should have all JJs or nothing, period. (But maybe that is just me.)
(That would happen to help the DS/TBR meta too.)

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:31 AM, said:

The engine costs practically nothing compared to IS engines...you can nerf the Timberwolf in all areas and it would still be one of the best mechs...it is unlikely to ever be useless unless the game changes very drastically.

But many suggestions have been put forward throughout many pages of this thread, feel free to read some!

*oof* Would it surprise you that I do not want to read 15+ pages? lol (I read the first one...)

Would be most grateful for an objective thread update from someone who has been here the whole time. Completely understandable if nobody wants to do that for newcomers.

[SilentWolff]

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 08:14 AM, said:

Long range lights aren't as useful as short range ones for a variety of reasons, but primarily due to their lack of utility during a late stage brawl which is where you have the most options anyways. Sniper lights are just weak versions of the mechs we already have, and if you're fighting anyone good there will hardly be enough shots for your actual snipers to take in the first place.

Lights in 12mans are fine. Lights in pubs are more annoying with the existence of SSRM6 boats with a 360m range and Daishis that can one shot you though. In 12mans these mechs are able to be dealt with easily by your team, so it's not that much of a problem.

It depends a lot on the team your are facing and their tactics imo. But we both agree that lights are fine in a 12 man, so I don't have much more to say on that subject. Heim appears to disagree with both of us however.

Adiuvo, on 24 June 2014 - 08:17 AM, said:

Didn't you guys scrim CSJ Alpha Galaxy and lose a few?

We also 3-0'd the MWO team that was on top for more than a year during that unofficial tourney (and had a match during the official), so I think it's a tad bit more meaningful than the Templar tourney... who was entered in that, btw?

I mean I'm not going to stick a 4man into the Beer Warriors tourney and screw up their good time when it's clear they're trying to have a fun comp league, not an all out serious one.

We played CSJA in random 3v3 and 4v4. Nothing meaningful and I had been on a hiatus for a month as well.
FYI, we have basically merged with them and are one team now.

And hey gratz on the win, but I will tell you we beat up on SJR as well, so much so we can't even get them to play us anymore. Hopefully now that we have the players again, we will be around for future 12 man's and we all can put our money where our mouth is.

Edited by SilentWolff, 24 June 2014 - 08:38 AM.

[Pygar]

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:23 AM, said:

You are so wrong it is crazy...talk about twisted If anything, Heim has a vested interest in keeping the Timberwolf overpowered if his motives were as you assume. He has it and every clan mech...he can already use it better then most people in this game will ever be able to. I do not think you understand the mindset of people who wish to become competitive players...boring is not the plan and never the goal.

I've played 12mans, the "meta" is boring as watching dog **** dry bro...there is no balance or variety in that end of the game, and so I'll take any suggestions about balance from those players with golf ball sized "grain of salt".

I'll repeat, the only nerfs I want to hear about right now are the 3 rule, and the Jump Jet nerf... it's too soon for Nerfing Clans, they technically aren't even finished with Clan implementation yet. (And yes, I agree that the T-Wolf might need another nerf later, but lets get past the JJet nerf and the 3 rule first.)

Edited by Pygar, 24 June 2014 - 08:41 AM.

[Adiuvo]

Khobai, on 24 June 2014 - 08:35 AM, said:

It is the best measure of overall skill though. Especially as a team. Because you have to take a crappy set of mechs and turn them into something you can win with. It tests every skillset from customization, putting together a capable team, and formulating new strategies/tactics that work with your specific set of mechs.

Nobody cares if a team of all Dragon Slayers wins a tournament. People dont want to see that !@#$. Its boring and expected.

If you stick both teams in random mechs, what are you going to do if one team gets the better set of random mechs? Even in stock, all mechs are not equal.

Mirror matches are the best way to test pure piloting skill, but that removes the strategy element that building your own drop deck provides. This is most obvious in the light and medium sections of a deck, especially the builds on the medium mechs.

[Joseph Mallan]

Wispsy, on 24 June 2014 - 08:29 AM, said:

Wait what? Everybody is playing the mechs they are best in as optimized as possible allowing the full range of equipment available in this game...throwing curve balls to catch some guys random weakness through rng is hardly the best measure of skill in this game...although I guess it would prove who the most all rounded is...but it is better to specialize in games then be super all rounded because super all rounder guys get beaten individually by specialists...

Are you kidding me? The true test of skill IS being able to win in whatever you are in. Cause skill isn't a measure of
of your gear. Its a measure of how you use what you got. If you are a champion cause you have the best gear, then you are not as good as you think. Champions are NOT one trick ponies.