364 replies to this topic

[Gyrok]

R Razor, on 13 July 2014 - 03:15 PM, said:

When someone from PGI or IGP comes in and posts that they make overhead each month based off of the $400 - $1500 that 150 (hell let's make it 450 just for shits and grins) league players spent OVER A THREE YEAR PERIOD, I'll gladly concede that there is no need for us dirty "casual" players..........unfortunately for you, I don't think is EVER going to happen.

And more of the issue with this game is directly related to broken game mechanics than it is skill........it's merely compounded by the fact that someone that dedicates 35 - 40 hours a week "practicing" is going to be better able to exploit that broken game mechanic than someone who only plays 5 - 10 hours a week or less.

Please read my edited post, I realized afterward that it sounded a bit off...as my the scope of my point was FAR greater than my group specifically.

Or pull your head out and realize that I am making generalizations.

[Gyrok]

Peter2000, on 13 July 2014 - 03:47 PM, said:

NOBODY I've talked to yet has thought that Clans are balanced (some are OK with them being broken, but that's a different question). And I pretty much talk to top-10 teams all the time. Not sure where Gyrok is getting this idea that the competitive community agrees with him.

Not sure where you think everyone thinks like you do either...I talk to many groups as well...

[Mystere]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 03:36 PM, said:

You've never provided numbers or any basic analysis besides saying 'IT'S NOT OP' over and over again and saying dumb crap like 'it has a massive CT.'

Well, the burden of proof actually lies with the ones claiming something is OP.

So do so and bring in lots of math. I love math. Include the complex equations you used. I love those too. And finally, bring in lots of simulations. I love complex equations presented as visual simulations even more.

Edited by Mystere, 13 July 2014 - 04:19 PM.

[Mcgral18]

Biaxialrain, on 13 July 2014 - 04:11 PM, said:

Please, sell your bullshit to the ignorant, I ain't buyin'.

Please tell us where the big bad Clan mech touched you.


It's not the Mech that's broken, it's the same mechanic that's been broken since the introduction of HSR. Nothing new. Just in a nicer package.

Why don't we finally fix the issue?

[Bishop Steiner]

Adiuvo, on 13 July 2014 - 02:29 PM, said:

Even if the Timberwolf magically loses access to PPC/Gauss it will still be a broken mech in comparison to everything else. This build, for instance. That's better than pretty much every brawler right now not only due to armament, but due to speed and tanking power.


Dragon Slayers, 3Ds, etc.. As to why... the benefits of those mechs has been discussed through the forums quite often. There's a thread right now asking what the meta is that can provide a decent enough summary. As for why the Timberwolf is powerful, it does the same thing those mechs do, just better.

While I respect your skill, and your team, I'm sorry , that build is hardly a game changer. It's solid, but no Clan MEch is "tanky", and hardly unstoppable. Have you "Lords" deigned to actually dump the meta as a unit, and run those builds?

And more accurately, to judge effectiveness, have you tried running those builds as PUGs, and seen the success. Because at the end of the day, it ain't the metal that you or SJR run that does the damage, it's the coordination. If you have taken that build out, dropped 50-100 matches in it, and have utterly dominated as a PUG, then yeah, maybe it's stronger than I am giving credit.

But seriously, whether running Clan Mechs myself, or IS, the only time I have been rolled my TWolves have been by HoL or SJR... and they all were ppc/gauss toting toaster pastries. And it was always between 8-12 of you guys. Do any of you HoL guys even drop solo anymore? (I ask, simply because I can't recall the last time I have seen you guys without at least a 4 man)

[Mcgral18]

Mystere, on 13 July 2014 - 03:40 PM, said:

MWO has real competitions? Where? What are the awards? Do the medals contain real gold? Who are the sponsors? How much are the cash awards?

None? Meh!

[Bishop Steiner]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 03:11 PM, said:

Sure, Against Orions...

But what about Dragonslayers...that is really the question. Would you bet against the DS? You and I both know you would not...and no one in their right mind would either.



Actually 150+ of us...though, my point is more that the comp crowd is likely spending money 10 to 1 against the average player. NOT focused entirely on our group alone.

And yes, that was my point...some people will never have the time to dedicate. This is not a "look at me" post...this is a "this is why" post. If people understand the time spent by those they are playing against, perhaps they will understand that the VAST MAJORITY of the issues are not at all related to a mech. They are related to a few mechanics that are broken, and the fact that the skill gap is likely enormous.

I'll face a Twolf in my Orion any day of the week, gladly. Because I know, equal skill, I can take it. 7-8 out of 10 times. I drive both, and have logged enough drops against good pilots in Twolfs. Yeah, I can't join the poptart fest, but that is the only thing I feel lacking in. For one thing, I can equip one heck of a lot more tonnage of weapons, depending on how I equip it, don't lose arm reflex if I mount PPCs in the arms, and have much better htiboxes.

But then, I am also a little odd, and happen to just run the Orion particularly well, so I might be an outlier.

[Mystere]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2014 - 04:22 PM, said:

[Joseph Mallan]

FupDup, on 13 July 2014 - 02:44 PM, said:

The real monster boogeyman is instant, perfect convergence. We can combine a large number of weapons to form a single, devastating 30-50 point superweapon that pile-drives through the toughest armor. Mechs that can jump just so happen to be better at taking advantage of this than land-bound mechs, due to exposure time.

Except to someone as old and seasoned as me MW:O 30 point alphas are single Gauss rounds. Formidable, but not OP. Yes converging multiple weapons to reach that level IS lame, but the amount of damage is completely Old School.

[Mcgral18]

Joseph Mallan, on 13 July 2014 - 04:54 PM, said:

Except to someone as old and seasoned as me MW:O 30 point alphas are single Gauss rounds. Formidable, but not OP. Yes converging multiple weapons to reach that level IS lame, but the amount of damage is completely Old School.

And it also fires twice in the same span, against 2x armor.

So, you do in effect have the same as TT.

[Odins Fist]

Hey, practice makes perfect, and there is no substitue for "T.O.T" (Time On Trigger)..

BattleTech this, Inner Sphere that, Natasha Kerensky hit me with a wiffle ball bat.
Anyone that says experience doesn't mean anything is "WRONG".

If a person puts the required time in on "ANYTHING", they will become proficient (to a degree) in what they are doing, whether it be Lone Wolf-ing it or Team play on coms, that is a given, how much is debatable and depends on what they run in MWO.
Even the most lowly of the low can become better to some degree, and those that "catch on" quick will get even better.

Experience is experience, plain and simple. Will a person get better playing against better competition and better pilots? Absolutely, but how much better will they get? That all depends on many different factors.

What's the complexity..??
#1. Hand/Eye coordination
#2. Loadout (weapons/engine/heatsinks/Armor/Jump Jets)
#3. Quality of hardware, computer & internet connection
#4. Solo play or Teams/Coms (communication with team)
#5. Point and Click
#6. Situational awareness

Pretty much all games are the same when you get down to it, W.A.S.D/Joystick/Gamped, "Point and Click", except MWO has Community Warfare (well not yet), and that's the only reason I stick around, to see what Communtiy Warfare will be like. The FPS titles I have played didn't have any sort of community warfare, and that's why I quit playing them, it was the same thing over and over.

Edited by Odins Fist, 13 July 2014 - 05:05 PM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mcgral18, on 13 July 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

And it also fires twice in the same span, against 2x armor.

So, you do in effect have the same as TT.

If thats the case I am even less impressed with the argument against 30+ damage Alphas.

[R Razor]

Gyrok, on 13 July 2014 - 04:14 PM, said:

Please read my edited post, I realized afterward that it sounded a bit off...as my the scope of my point was FAR greater than my group specifically.

Or pull your head out and realize that I am making generalizations.

I don't need to "pull my head" out of anything pal, you are the one that lacks the rudimentary communication skill set necessary to convey a point.

You said that you didn't believe casuals were necessary because you and 149 of your best buds all spent between $400 and $1500 on this game in the space of the past 3 years.............I called you on it because it was a STUPID comment. Just accept that you were in error and don't try to defend the indefensible.

None of you so called LEAGUE players would have a game to play if it weren't for the casual players, the sooner you realize and accept that, the sooner you can stop coming off sounding like an elitist arrogant xxxxx and more like a member of the community.

Edited by R Razor, 13 July 2014 - 05:25 PM.

[R Razor]

Odins Fist, on 13 July 2014 - 05:03 PM, said:

Hey, practice makes perfect, and there is no substitue for "T.O.T" (Time On Trigger)..

Experience in this game is only a force multiplier.......a relatively new player (3 - 6 months in the game) stands a better than average chance at pimp slapping a veteran player with more T.O.T if that new player has a basic familiarity with the meta and PP FLD mechanics of the game and runs a mech loaded out with weapons taking advantage of it and the veteran is in a similar tonnage mech utilizing D.O.T weapons exclusively.........after all, the newer player only need land a few volleys to eliminate the veteran whereas the veteran needs to land many to do the same.

Yes the veteran will last longer than a newer guy in a D.O.T mech, because of his experience.......but all of the experience in the world won't stop those 35 - 50 point PP FLD alphas from wrecking him when they land.

[Odins Fist]

R Razor, on 13 July 2014 - 05:22 PM, said:

Experience in this game is only a force multiplier.......a relatively new player (3 - 6 months in the game) stands a better than average chance at pimp slapping a veteran player with more T.O.T if that new player has a basic familiarity with the meta and PP FLD mechanics of the game and runs a mech loaded out with weapons taking advantage of it and the veteran is in a similar tonnage mech utilizing D.O.T weapons exclusively.........after all, the newer player only need land a few volleys to eliminate the veteran whereas the veteran needs to land many to do the same.

Yes the veteran will last longer than a newer guy in a D.O.T mech, because of his experience.......but all of the experience in the world won't stop those 35 - 50 point PP FLD alphas from wrecking him when they land.

There is no substitute for experience. That is a universally accepted fact on planet Earth.

I fail to see why anyone would argue that.

Someone with experience in MWO will most likely be running something similar to the 35-50 point alphas you speak of, or adapt quickly when a new weapons balance or change in penalties occur, also someone with much more experience would probably be better at running non Meta builds then would be a newer player.

I don't understand why a person that plays consistently, and has done so since, let us say closed beta, would be any less viable then someone that has only played 3 to 6 months.

What do you think?

Edited by Odins Fist, 13 July 2014 - 05:45 PM.

[R Razor]

Odins Fist, on 13 July 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

There is no substitute for experience. That is a universally accepted fact on planet Earth.

I fail to see why anyone would argue that.

Someone with experience in MWO will most likely be running something similar to the 35-50 point alphas you speak of, or adapt quickly when a new weapons balance or change in penalties occur, even though someone with much more experience would probably be better at running non Meta builds then would be a newer player.

I don't understand why a person that plays consistently, and has done so since, let us say closed beta, would be any less viable then someone that has only played 3 to 6 months.

What do you think?

As I said, all of the experience in the world will not stand you in good stead if you are not running PP FLD and your opponent is, provided your opponent has the rudimentary skills to utilize the PP FLD load out. All he has to do is hit you two or three times while you have to hit him repeatedly with weapons that spread damage. Who has the advantage?

It sounds like you're saying that the only definition of experience you recognize is the one in which everyone runs PP FLD load outs. That isn't experience, that's cookie cutter boredom. It is also what the fine designers in Canada have seen fit to give us. This game does not reward experience to the same degree it rewards conformance........conform to the PP FLD meta and you are better rewarded than you are by going against the grain in your laser boat for instance. That experience can be gained in 3 - 6 months of casual play (far less actually I'm sure) and doesn't require 35+ hours a week to figure out.

[Odins Fist]

R Razor, on 13 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

As I said, all of the experience in the world will not stand you in good stead if you are not running PP FLD and your opponent is, provided your opponent has the rudimentary skills to utilize the PP FLD load out. All he has to do is hit you two or three times while you have to hit him repeatedly with weapons that spread damage. Who has the advantage?

It sounds like you're saying that the only definition of experience you recognize is the one in which everyone runs PP FLD load outs. That isn't experience, that's cookie cutter boredom. It is also what the fine designers in Canada have seen fit to give us. This game does not reward experience to the same degree it rewards conformance........conform to the PP FLD meta and you are better rewarded than you are by going against the grain in your laser boat for instance. That experience can be gained in 3 - 6 months of casual play (far less actually I'm sure) and doesn't require 35+ hours a week to figure out.

You have completely missed the point..

R Razor, on 13 July 2014 - 05:48 PM, said:

It sounds like you're saying that the only definition of experience you recognize is the one in which everyone runs PP FLD load outs.

That is not what I was saying, quite the opposite.

Odins Fist, on 13 July 2014 - 05:41 PM, said:

Someone with experience in MWO will most likely be running something similar to the 35-50 point alphas you speak of, or ----> adapt quickly when a new weapons balance or change in penalties occur, also someone with much more experience would probably be better at running non Meta builds then would be a newer player.

I don't understand why a person that plays consistently, and has done so since, let us say closed beta, would be any less viable then someone that has only played 3 to 6 months.

What do you think?

Notice the word "similar", then look for the arrow and read.

If you miss the point after that, then there is no hope.

Edited by Odins Fist, 13 July 2014 - 05:56 PM.

[R Razor]

Odins Fist, on 13 July 2014 - 05:54 PM, said:

You have completely missed the point..



That is not what I was saying, quite the opposite.



Look for the arrow, then read

I got that, what I am saying is that the game doesn't reward that, it rewards PP FLD over all else.........and that is an almost NO EXPERIENCE REQUIRED ability that anyone that can toss PPC / AC / Gauss Rifles onto a mech has. They don't need to play 35 hours a week to gain that. Experience in this game is more a matter of rote memorization, learn the maps, memorize them, go to the best points on each map, PP FLD your way to easy money. Wash, Rinse, Repeat. With VERY few exceptions, most games on each map play out exactly the same..........Mount Doom on Terra Therma, Mount Moron on Alpine Peaks, Mixing Bowl (or ring around the rosie) on Caustic, the lower city area and crashed dropship ridgeline on Frozen City, the Garage and Tunnel on Crimson Strait, the Citadel on River City..........Experience gained through playing on them dictates where the best places to fight are, and until you gain it you fight at one of the above listed locations the majority of the time. Aside from that, I don't agree that experience means all that much in this game.


I believe they would be less viable because of the game mechanics we have been provided, see PP FLD.

Edited by R Razor, 13 July 2014 - 06:03 PM.

[Odins Fist]

R Razor, on 13 July 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

I got that....

Experience in this game is more a matter of rote memorization, learn the maps, memorize them, go to the best points on each map....

I don't agree that experience means all that much in this game......

Experience doesn't mean much in MWO...

Ok then, keep on keepin on...

[Alex Warden]

stjobe, on 13 July 2014 - 02:34 PM, said:

, and sadly there's more and more things that are UP.

that might be one of the true big problems... it´s nothing bad about 1 or 2 mechs performing better than others, because teamwork can even that out, but more and more machines/ layouts becoming useless is *badword*

PGI said they don´t want to create an armsrace, but in a way they do without actively doing so... on the other hand, they said that during founders phase, so...