157 replies to this topic

[L A V A]

Have you ever seen "streak" LRMs in action?

Not too long ago I was playing Forest Colony. My team was on the low side and I had moved to a position behind a hill, I believe it is the hill that runs alongside and above the water in the gully that has the bridge. I was over by the area where there a couple boulders that folks use to snipe and was looking inland when all of a sudden I saw a Jenner fly over that ridge and turned sharply to the left to run down the side of it, in cover one would say. No sooner had he made it over the ridge and turned, a mass of LRMS came over the ridge in the exact position that he had crossed and then instead of crashing into the ground as the trajectory of any missile would have properly done, at an altitude of no more than a couple meters at best, the missiles made a 90 degree turn and slammed into the Jenner's legs.

And that is why all lights have a plus 5 percent quirk for their legs.

We need to be clear here. The insanely steep terminal trajectory and final tracking of LRMs has nothing to do with skill. It is an exploit, pure and simple.

[Kjudoon]

There are 4 guidance points where the LRMs adjust in their arc after firing. You can see them if you watch with the details high enough. They make 4 distinct bends. IF a target is still locked, and a big enough direction change is needed, it makes an absolutely SILLY serpentine turn in the air to get back on lock. This is a rendering issue, not a real targeting issue. Not everything you see on the screen is true. By the same token, the streams of 'bullets'' from the AMS launchers arent real but a graphical representation of the radius effect AMS is doing. Its why they can shoot through walls, other mechs... everything without being stopped.

You win some, you lose some.

[L A V A]

Flying parallel at no more than 2 meters above the ground is not a rendering issue.

Not so long ago, a light could easily jump out of the way of LRMs. That Jenner would never have been hit.

They have given the missile a final guidance maneuver which is utterly unbelievable and from a physics point of view, impossible.

Therefore, it is an exploit.

And that is why folks are continually asking for nerfs to LRMs because they know something is not right and it is also one of the many reasons why light pilots are fleeing MWO by the droves.

[Kjudoon]

... an exploit?

You want to start a thread on all the 'exploits' in this game? Do we really want to measure urine output this badly? I've got a short list of things that need 'un-exploiting' LONG before this 'exploit' is dealt with.

[L A V A]

Kjudoon, on 17 July 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

...before this 'exploit' is dealt with.

Thank you, it's refreshing to see people being honest.

[Kjudoon]

I'm stunned at the concept of calling this an exploit with ECM being as OP as it is, Light mechs still benefit from bad hit boxes/hit reg, and BAP remains intermittent. If these things are not considered exploits, neither is the LRM error.

Edited by Kjudoon, 17 July 2014 - 05:39 PM.

[AC]

This was a bad change for LRM's.

1) They home in on the CT
2) They home in on the CT!!!


This sucks for 2 reasons.

1) People are getting just plain owned with LRM fire, especially since you have kind of a ******** indirect fire system where a whole team can gang **** a single mech with LRM fire.

2) I watched a match where a mech had a Red Red Red right torso where a small laser could have finished it, but the LRM's never touched that section. They hit his well armed CT. I am sure the LRM pilot would have loved for LRM's to hit multiple locations on a mech. (LIKE THEY ARE SUPPOSE TO!)

Whey can't LRM's use the streak hit table? They seem prone to doing massive damage to single sections of certain mechs. Kit Fox? LRM's hit only legs. Dire Wolf? They hit only CT. It is a really poor setup right now.

[Kjudoon]

We have different ideas on what a "challenge" is. Mine is to remain as close to 100% health and destroying as much hardware as possible without ever exposing myself to one single shot. A perfect game would be 12 kills and take zero damage, if possible to be completely invisible to the enemy, even better.

So far, my results are poor.


If the challenge is to exhaust all ammo and get as close to 0% health without dying.... Yeah, not my thing.

I'll wait for video evidence on LRMs "homing in on CT". I've not experienced it unless I have LOS and artemis with Tag running... and then it's only MARGINALLY better.

[Onlystolen]

FEAR ME I AM THE MONSTER TO

WHICH NIGHTMARES ARE MADE OF!

*foosh foosh foosh foosh*

[HarlekinEO]

shad0w4life, on 17 July 2014 - 07:40 AM, said:

I REALLY REALLY REALLY wish we could see other peoples mech stats along with build.

I'm so curious about what builds people are running when hating on LRMs

Do they have AMS with overload? probably neither
could they get a 2 or 3 AMS mech or ECM yup, but choose not to.

Are they running a PPC FLD build, if so the irony in that is amazing.




Then stay near cover. Sounds to me like someone was Narc'd, tagged or had a UAV spotting them.
Dual PPC + AC/Gauss ruins the gameplay, not LRMs.

AMS+overload vs a clan LRM10 = you take about 2 damage.

If you're complaining about an LRM boat, get up close and personal and they are crippled then.




Edit: and before anyone calls me an LRM spammer, I've got 6000 dmg or less on all clan lrms(with a full clan package) and around 50k with IS Med, and 30k or so with CER ML, CLL, IS LL, AC20, AC5

Please do me a favour and stop playing stupid. Im playing as long as you and I know about the game.

[Thunder Child]

Played a couple of matches last night in my Daishi. I can tell you now, that the only things homing on my CT were Gauss slugs and PPCs. The LRMs had a strange fascination with my arms and legs instead. Two matches, I ended up Legged when I was behind cover, and only yellow damage on the rest of my mech. (I was Narced both times, FYI. **** happens).

Yes, I defend LRMs, not because I use them, but because I believe they add a very vital tactical element to the game, and because they were a common feature of lore (even though most people would rather bin the lore).

However, I will concede that they need tweaking. Not the MAJAH NURFS that people are crying for, because taking damage from LRMs is 75% LTP. But I do believe a fire and forget mechanic would make things interesting. Hear me out before you scream "NO SKILLZ NOOB TOOB". First, increase the travel speed by an order of magnitude. Makes these things FAST. Then, remove guidance entirely. Yes, no MORE HOMING. Indirect Fire will land where it lands. You have 1.5 secs to move. Also, increase the range to 1.5k. Maybe even 2k. Increase Minimum Range to 270m. Increase the Cooldown, but remove Ghost Heat. Leave Damage as it is. Maybe buff it slightly, if the cooldown is Dramatically increased. Increase the Arc Trajectory.
Suddenly, the LRM will be a weapon that forces players to move, rather than forcing them to hunker down behind rocks. Note that for indirect fire, a lock would still be required for the missiles to arc, otherwise they would head into whatever is in front of you, but once launched, they travel to the last targeted location, VERY QUICKLY!

Anyways, just an idea to shake things up, without nerfing them into obscurity (again).

[Hobgoblin I]

Thunder Child, on 17 July 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Played a couple of matches last night in my Daishi. I can tell you now, that the only things homing on my CT were Gauss slugs and PPCs. The LRMs had a strange fascination with my arms and legs instead. Two matches, I ended up Legged when I was behind cover, and only yellow damage on the rest of my mech. (I was Narced both times, FYI. **** happens).

Yes, I defend LRMs, not because I use them, but because I believe they add a very vital tactical element to the game, and because they were a common feature of lore (even though most people would rather bin the lore).

However, I will concede that they need tweaking. Not the MAJAH NURFS that people are crying for, because taking damage from LRMs is 75% LTP. But I do believe a fire and forget mechanic would make things interesting. Hear me out before you scream "NO SKILLZ NOOB TOOB". First, increase the travel speed by an order of magnitude. Makes these things FAST. Then, remove guidance entirely. Yes, no MORE HOMING. Indirect Fire will land where it lands. You have 1.5 secs to move. Also, increase the range to 1.5k. Maybe even 2k. Increase Minimum Range to 270m. Increase the Cooldown, but remove Ghost Heat. Leave Damage as it is. Maybe buff it slightly, if the cooldown is Dramatically increased. Increase the Arc Trajectory.
Suddenly, the LRM will be a weapon that forces players to move, rather than forcing them to hunker down behind rocks. Note that for indirect fire, a lock would still be required for the missiles to arc, otherwise they would head into whatever is in front of you, but once launched, they travel to the last targeted location, VERY QUICKLY!

Anyways, just an idea to shake things up, without nerfing them into obscurity (again).

Well then you are just making them into LBX's. If you are going to change lore like that so much make PPC's beams to get rid of the front loaded pin point damage everyone is so worried about.

[Ertur]

ECM beats LRMs.

Every.
Single.
Time.

Unless the other team can break your ECM, you only have to worry about dumb-fired LRMs. And they are easy to dodge.

[Thunder Child]

Hobgoblin I, on 17 July 2014 - 11:50 PM, said:

Well then you are just making them into LBX's. If you are going to change lore like that so much make PPC's beams to get rid of the front loaded pin point damage everyone is so worried about.

Well, by Tabletop Standards, they WERE LBXs unless TAG was involved. All they did was assign damage in clumps of 5, instead of clumps of one. The Issue people seem to have with LRMs is the Guidance. If we remove the Guidance, but increase the Travel Speed to keep them viable, they now require what all the CoD players perceive as "Skill". And they would still Ride a TAG beam, if someone was brave enough to keep the target Tagged. And Narc, if I remember the lore correctly, pulled missiles in if they were targeted near an enemy. Now, we can change ECM from a Magic Cloak of Invisibility, into what it was always MEANT to be, something to negate Narc, TAG, and Artemis.

And I've always been in favour of the Beam PPC.

[A banana in the tailpipe]

It would be nice if they fixed LRMs first so they don't dry fire into the ground every 3rd salvo. I fear it's a syncing issue with the client.

[RogueLdr]

I want to comment on the often bandied about "anti LRM " tactic of "L2P and get to cover."
How many times have we heard this spouted again and again in this forum?

Let me say this, in a light or even a fast medium, yes, most times you can avoid LRMs fairly easily, assumeing you're not in some really wide open spot or narced; where this argument falls apart is in slow mechs.

Even if you go balls out full throttle from one piece of cover to the next without pausing it can sometimes take you a fair bit of time to get there.
This notion that cover is always a step away simpley isn't true.

Even if you're not already in LOS from some non LRM enemy, a properly equipped LRM boat will take all of what... 2 seconds to lock on, give or take?
Figure a 3secish flight time and it only takes 5 seconds before you start taking dmg.

Lets say it takes me 8 sec from the time i'm lockable till i'm "safely" behind cover again.(not going to mention that missles in the air are still locked onto you.)
That's 3 sec of constant damage.

If it's some guy with an LRM 20... meh no big deal. The problem is it's never just that one guy, it's typically 2-3 boats. The amount of dmg that can pour in during that few seconds of exposure can be devastating. Now multiply that times every time you have to cross a gap and you start to see why people complain.

Off hand as far as the other "anti LRM" tricks go...

Unless you're lucky enough to have a DDC lumbering along next to you, you can largely forget about ECM. Unless it's an organized team drop, most light pilots will not just stand around waiting for your slow a$$. You may have it briefly at a gathering area, but a stationary light is a dead light so most of the time your ECM will be sprinting away from you at 150KPH.

And AMS... well, it works, kinda. It more reduces the dmg you recieve as opposed to stopping it as typically the sheer amount of inbound missles simply overwhelms it.
Now take a guess how long 1000 rounds of AMS ammo lasts when each volley that's coming at you contains 50-100 missles?

On a side note about cover, how many times have you been tucked safely behind a hill, WELL out of sight of the LRM boat, only to see the missles "ski" down the slope of the hill a few meters above the ground and slam into you? There is no way that should ever happen.

Long story short,
LRMs in and of themselves are not OP. It's the way that they fit into the game that can sometimes make them feel that way.

[Panzerbjorn]

Thunder Child, on 17 July 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

However, I will concede that they need tweaking. Not the MAJAH NURFS that people are crying for, because taking damage from LRMs is 75% LTP. But I do believe a fire and forget mechanic would make things interesting. Hear me out before you scream "NO SKILLZ NOOB TOOB". First, increase the travel speed by an order of magnitude. Makes these things FAST. Then, remove guidance entirely. Yes, no MORE HOMING. Indirect Fire will land where it lands. You have 1.5 secs to move. Also, increase the range to 1.5k. Maybe even 2k. Increase Minimum Range to 270m. Increase the Cooldown, but remove Ghost Heat. Leave Damage as it is. Maybe buff it slightly, if the cooldown is Dramatically increased. Increase the Arc Trajectory.
Suddenly, the LRM will be a weapon that forces players to move, rather than forcing them to hunker down behind rocks. Note that for indirect fire, a lock would still be required for the missiles to arc, otherwise they would head into whatever is in front of you, but once launched, they travel to the last targeted location, VERY QUICKLY!

Anyways, just an idea to shake things up, without nerfing them into obscurity (again).

And if they did this, they'd also have to re-introduce the splash damage because almost all LRM salvos would end up in near-misses. And the splash dmg was causing major problems with the net code and server performance. So, no thanks.

The best suggestion I've seen so far was that someone just suggested increasing the spread for LRM volleys. I think that's a brilliant idea and would bring LRMs back into balance. The main issue with LRMs right now (people are saying, anyway, I think they're fine honestly) is that they tend to hit the same component in one volley rather than spreading out more, in addition to the fact that entire volleys land and hit rather then some just missing target like in the TT game. Well, increase the spread and problem solved. Of course, any skilled player who knows jack about LRMs is using Artemis, and Artemis better remain an improvement worth taking (in fact you shouldn't run a missile boat without it, now and in the future).

[Panzerbjorn]

HarlekinEO, on 17 July 2014 - 05:58 AM, said:

Its not about how often you are killed by that weapon, more then about ruining the gameplay.
Of course I can avoid them, like using the Uller KFX-D. But do I have fun? No!

Can you even quantify your complaint with some valid backing points? Or are you just whinging without any validity?

If you never/rarely get killed by LRMs, then what's there to complain about? Skilled players don't use weapons that don't kill people, so the measure of how often you're killed by LRMs is a valid one.

Having to take ECM/AMS/strategic cover and work against TAG and NARC is not fun? It ruins your gameplay? WTF game did you think you're playing then?! This is what Battletech and Mechwarrior have always been about! I find your standpoint utterly baffling and you didn't even present valid points to back up your opinion.

[Thunder Child]

A valid counter-point Panzerbjorn, and in all fairness, I agree that the only "fix" LRMs actually NEED is a slightly larger spread on Indirect fire. I've also been a long time fan of Konivings suggestion regarding the Double Reload Time, Double Damage. It makes LRMs truly dangerous, leaves the LRM boat vulnerable for a considerable period of time after a salvo, and removes the missile Spam that we are currently seeing in the lower Elos.

The only reason I made the above suggestion, is because if the QQ'ers wanted to completely overhaul LRMs, that is the compromise I am willing to make. Turn them into In-direct Artillery that can barrage the hell out of them if they don't know how to move 2 steps. Although, this would cause more QQ, now that I think about it, because they would become the ultimate Noob-slayer weapon, but now they would be nowhere near as Noob-friendly to use.

[Barkem Squirrel]

I have not seen an increase in LRMs killing mechs faster. Just more LRMs due to clan loadouts. Now the down side to that is you could see 100 to 200 LRMs coming at you with a mix of IS and clan.

LRMs do not have splash damage anymore, so they were just nerfed a bit.


I am never disapointed in LRM threads. Now what about the Nerf the PPC, Gauss, and AC threads?