110 replies to this topic

[Kiiyor]

Mystere, on 16 July 2014 - 04:12 PM, said:

I guess I will have to ask of you the same thing:

I've collated a tonne of info from nearly 500 matches, if that lends credence to any arguments here.

http://mwomercs.com/...ew-data-170714/

The crux of it is that the Advantage the clans have is situational - Faction numbers per team aren't always equal, IS trial mechs drag IS numbers waaaay down, and the IS has twice as many disconnects/0 damage mechs than the clans do. If you eliminate those factors, the Clans have between a 2% and maximum 10% advantage over the IS.

[xe N on]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 12:07 PM, said:

They have about the same tonnage, actually. Though, lighter weapons does help in that regard.

SHD with XL 275 and TBR seem to have the same tonnage, but that is not true. The TBR comes with 5 DB-heatsink (15 total), which would cost the SHD 5 tons and alot of slots to equip.

In addition, as you said, clan weapons are lighter and take less slots.

We shoudl not forget that the TB has neraly 100 armor more then the SHD and uses an Clan-XL that don't mind if you lose one of the side torsos. Even the size of the TBR is not much larger then the SHD.

As result if you have the choice between a SHD and a TBR there is realy no reason to take the SHD. Not for speed, not for agility, not for survivabiliy, not for firepower.

When you have a heavy with the speed and agility of a medium but with next to no downside, I would call this overpowered.

[Mcgral18]

xe N on, on 16 July 2014 - 08:41 PM, said:

SHD with XL 275 and TBR seem to have the same tonnage, but that is not true. The TBR comes with 5 DB-heatsink (15 total), which would cost the SHD 5 tons and alot of slots to equip.

In addition, as you said, clan weapons are lighter and take less slots.

We shoudl not forget that the TB has neraly 100 armor more then the SHD and uses an Clan-XL that don't mind if you lose one of the side torsos. Even the size of the TBR is not much larger then the SHD.

As result if you have the choice between a SHD and a TBR there is realy no reason to take the SHD. Not for speed, not for agility, not for survivabiliy, not for firepower.

When you have a heavy with the speed and agility of a medium but with next to no downside, I would call this overpowered.

It's also 20 tons heavier.

Sure, give it the Victor nerf. Make it gimped in a Brawl. Who cares about that XL 375 engine.

[Baddicus Wolf]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 05:23 PM, said:

That's the range you're talking about.

This is damage I'm talking about.

Did you even read that? I only mentioned range as an added factor after listing a ton of real damage stats. I can see that you like to ignore obvious stuff that goes against your point.

Range fall-off affects both sides, and I regularly fire out to extended range no matter which mech I am in.

I love seeing people running weapons that are clearly more powerful than most counterparts and claiming that they are actually worse, no nerf needed. I don't think they need a nerf, but at the same time I am not going to argue that they are weaker weapons.

[Aresye]

zhajin, on 16 July 2014 - 04:55 AM, said:

I finally bought into catapults a few months ago (jester 50% off sale, and then 50% off on cbill chassis how could i resist). then i bought the timberwolf about a month ago. since then i have been running timberwolves exclusively for heavies. the TW trumps the catapults in every way. even as an lrm boat i do better with my TW I have not played jagers much recently but i suspect the same for them. the 3d might still be viable, but overall the TW is the best heavy hands down, which technically makes it OP.

other than the TW i do not see a significant problem with clans, though I also have not run any clan assaults personally, just killed them a lot.

Not denying the Timberwolf should be throttled back a little bit, but making every heavy the same is kind of pointless. The Timberwolf as it stands now, SHOULD be the best heavy. The problem is it's the best by a pretty big margin at the moment.

[Mcgral18]

Baddicus Wolf, on 16 July 2014 - 09:11 PM, said:

Did you even read that? I only mentioned range as an added factor after listing a ton of real damage stats. I can see that you like to ignore obvious stuff that goes against your point.

Range fall-off affects both sides, and I regularly fire out to extended range no matter which mech I am in.

I love seeing people running weapons that are clearly more powerful than most counterparts and claiming that they are actually worse, no nerf needed. I don't think they need a nerf, but at the same time I am not going to argue that they are weaker weapons.

Worse? No. Different, yes.

ERML, better all around.

cERLL, more total damage and range, but takes longer to deal that damage.

cERPPC is damned hot for 5 wasted damage and additional range, with no low heat option.


So, more total damage, more range but takes longer to deal that damage. I consider that to be kinda balanced.



What makes them completely overpowered? I'm not seeing it. With all the downsides of the chassis, they certainly need something to compete with the IS meta overlords. ERML fits that nicely.

[Jonathan Paine]

Couple of things:
Clan DHS: 2 crits
IS DHS: 3 crits
Clan Gauss: 12 tons (6 crits)
IS Gauss: 15 tons (5 crits)
Clan ERPPC: 6 tons (2 crit) 10+5 damage 15 heat
IS ERPCC: 7 tons (3 crit) 10 damage 10 heat

These are a few easy examples of Clan > IS

[xXBagheeraXx]

Clan mechs are OP because people are freaking STUPID.

Most All of my Direwolf builds are long range builds with 2 gauss rifles at a minimum and all manner of er large lasers....

Ill peek around a hill and see some guy in my adv zoom at 900 meters and give him the good news...He MIGHT have a single standard PPC and return a shot for little to no damage.

Now, the smart player would get the heck from in front of a dire wolf that just lanced him with 4 er large lasers and twin gauss rifles, but the pugs I usually get will SIT THERE. and TRADE with me.

If I land Alpine in my dire wolf B with the aforementioned configuration I feel bad if I don't do at least 800-900 damage with about 5 kills or so. People just park in front of me and trade with weapons that I outrange by 3 to 4 times over....If you are gonna sit at 700 meters with an atlas with 2 ac5's and 2 (standard) large lasers and trade with me, I'll gladly take you up on it. I actually killed an atlas once with nothing but my 4 large lasers at 1.1k meters by burning though his ct...FOUR large lasers only and he SAT THERE and let me kill him while he innefectively tried to return fire with medium lasers...he didnt roll damage he didnt try to move, he didnt try to break line of sight he just sat there and let me slowly hen peck his ct to death. But what annoys me is that after people get spanked like that, they go crying in the forums and get my rides nerfed. I dont drive them because they are OP, I drive them because they capitalize on stupidity. 75 to 80 points of damage at a time, and do it at ranges that keep my bacon safe for the most part.

[Mcgral18]

Jonathan Paine, on 16 July 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Couple of things:
Clan DHS: 2 crits
IS DHS: 3 crits
Clan Gauss: 12 tons (6 crits)
IS Gauss: 15 tons (5 crits)
Clan ERPPC: 6 tons (2 crit) 10+5 damage 15 heat
IS ERPCC: 7 tons (3 crit) 10 damage 10 heat

These are a few easy examples of Clan > IS

And you can never forget the SRMs, MGs or the ERML.


Now to counter those, you have one mech with good hitboxes, and all the rest are mediocre.

You can't add endosteel, so you're down tonnage. Engines are locked, which isn't always optimal.

uACs are all inferior for damage application, and there isn't a choice for PP FLD aside from Gauss and cERPPCs.


There are advantages and downsides to the Clans. Does one outweight the other? That depends from mech to mech. I'd say overall, no.
There is one good Clan mech, 2 that are half decent, and the rest are in line with the rest of the poorer IS mechs.

[Aresye]

xXBagheeraXx, on 16 July 2014 - 10:25 PM, said:

Now, the smart player would get the heck from in front of a dire wolf that just lanced him with 4 er large lasers and twin gauss rifles, but the pugs I usually get will SIT THERE. and TRADE with me.

It ain't just you:

[xXBagheeraXx]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

And you can never forget the SRMs, MGs or the ERML.


Now to counter those, you have one mech with good hitboxes, and all the rest are mediocre.

You can't add endosteel, so you're down tonnage. Engines are locked, which isn't always optimal.

uACs are all inferior for damage application, and there isn't a choice for PP FLD aside from Gauss and cERPPCs.


There are advantages and downsides to the Clans. Does one outweight the other? That depends from mech to mech. I'd say overall, no.
There is one good Clan mech, 2 that are half decent, and the rest are in line with the rest of the poorer IS mechs.

Yes, it is incredibly easy to roll the damage on clan weapons for all except for the ppc and gauss rifles for obvious reasons. When I actually have my head on straight I can usually win most fights with most of the front of my mech cherry red from spreading those long duration lasers and autocannons all over the place If i wind up in a toe to toe fight with one. Doesn't happen often, but its much easier to do with those than innersphere weapons. After driving clan mechs for a while, IS lasers almost feel like cheating by comparison.

Aresye, on 16 July 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

It ain't just you:

I should have recoreded a game I had on alpine...fought my way up to that com tower and dropped 5 mechs in rapid succession because they kept peeking around that corner well out of their effective range...after mech #3 I stated typing "NEXT!" in chat and they just KEPT FREAKING COMING.......It was hilarious, I almost died from laughing at how funny it was.

[Jonathan Paine]

Mcgral18, on 16 July 2014 - 10:27 PM, said:

...

You can't add endosteel, so you're down tonnage. Engines are locked, which isn't always optimal.

Clan XL surviving loss of a side torso more than makes up for endo. Locked engines... sure, but that is pretty much the only thing. If you want front load damage, then few things beat 2xClan ERPPC + 2xClan Gauss. Mix it up with 2x CERPPC + 2x CUAC20 for front + damage over time.

Anyway, I like the clans to be op - to be countered by 12+ IS vs 10 Clan

[xXBagheeraXx]

Jonathan Paine, on 16 July 2014 - 10:34 PM, said:

Clan XL surviving loss of a side torso more than makes up for endo. Locked engines... sure, but that is pretty much the only thing. If you want front load damage, then few things beat 2xClan ERPPC + 2xClan Gauss. Mix it up with 2x CERPPC + 2x CUAC20 for front + damage over time.

Anyway, I like the clans to be op - to be countered by 12+ IS vs 10 Clan

I would actually love to run with dual uac20s....if it didnt overheat like a fat pig.

You can thank Ghost heat for the dual gauss Dual ppc build. Ghost heat kind of limits the available builds that work well...you have a mech with a billion energy hardpoints, but you are unable to use them because of the ghost heat restrictions.

Edited by xXBagheeraXx, 16 July 2014 - 10:42 PM.

[Widowmaker1981]

What people fail to take into account when looking at clan weapons on paper and seeing them 'obviously' op compared to IS weapons, is that every single clan mech is built WRONG, on purpose, to balance them. They all (so far at least) have something badly wrong with their build

kit fox and adder engine too small, no ferro
nova no endo steel
stormcrow is probably the least wrongly built, engine is a touch too big though and mediums kinda need JJs imo
Summoner has much too big an engine, and needs endo steel, and has terrible hardpoints
Timberwolf has much too big an engine, could do with dropping ferro, but is still the best heavy in the game due to incredible hardpoints.
Warhawk is pretty good too, engine is about right, but again its got quite limited hardpoints, and ferro instead of endo.
Direwolf has absurdly good hardpoints, but has a massively too small engine.

These fails go a long way toward mitigating the lower tonnage cost of the clan weapons, and the other nerfs (laser beam duration, burst ACs, stream LRMs) go the rest of the way, imo.

I do find clan mechs more fun to play though, and i really dont see myself wanting to use non AC based IS mechs again.. (i dont play lights)

[Gallowglas]

Devilsfury, on 16 July 2014 - 06:01 AM, said:

Clan lasers are the biggest factor in why people think the clans are overpowered.

I feel exactly the opposite is true. Clan lasers feel very balanced. It's the chassis that can pack pinpoint, instant damage weapons that seem to be the problem, which is why the DW and TW seem so devastating. With the DW it can mount so many weapons that even the UAC/5 version seems to negate the extended DoT aspect of the Clans. Now that LRMs have minimum range and do pinpoint, people are starting to pack more and more narc, which makes LRM spam from Clan mechs seem withering. Heck, in many cases the extended launch pattern of Clan LRMs is an advantage, not a disadvantage.

Just MHO. YMMV.

Edited by Gallowglas, 17 July 2014 - 02:22 AM.

[MadPanda]

Aresye, on 16 July 2014 - 10:30 PM, said:

It ain't just you:

Best part was where you lost self confidence and decided not to ask the team to follow you to the radio tower.

[Dazzer]

clan is OP and pay to win. the weapons are better and they heat sink take up less room so you can have more of them that alone makes them OP , LRM that have no min range ? IS mechs are little more than target drones for the pay to win crowd.

[Mystere]

Kiiyor, on 16 July 2014 - 06:53 PM, said:

I've collated a tonne of info from nearly 500 matches, if that lends credence to any arguments here.

http://mwomercs.com/...ew-data-170714/

The crux of it is that the Advantage the clans have is situational - Faction numbers per team aren't always equal, IS trial mechs drag IS numbers waaaay down, and the IS has twice as many disconnects/0 damage mechs than the clans do. If you eliminate those factors, the Clans have between a 2% and maximum 10% advantage over the IS.

Your work is impressive. I'll leave my comments on that thread.

[Biaxialrain]

Clan is pay to win at the moment.

Anyone thinking they have superior skill using Clan is delusional.

What can stand up to the Dire one on one?

Point and click your weapons in a Dire and any mech in the game goes down easy, and from further away than your opponent's weapons.

[Mystere]

Biaxialrain, on 17 July 2014 - 05:05 AM, said:

What can stand up to the Dire one on one?

Any mech that can constantly stab it in the back?

Jonathan Paine, on 16 July 2014 - 10:20 PM, said:

Couple of things:
Clan DHS: 2 crits
IS DHS: 3 crits
Clan Gauss: 12 tons (6 crits)
IS Gauss: 15 tons (5 crits)
Clan ERPPC: 6 tons (2 crit) 10+5 damage 15 heat
IS ERPCC: 7 tons (3 crit) 10 damage 10 heat

These are a few easy examples of Clan > IS

I call that a one-dimensional "analysis".

Edited by Mystere, 17 July 2014 - 05:15 AM.