692 replies to this topic

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Voidcrafter, on 07 August 2014 - 11:43 PM, said:

So you're saying what?
That I must trust the MM? The games with trial IS mechs against the clans? Some random stats? Did you made the effort to read what I've pointed out before posting this again?
They've put some reallly crappy enviorment and oooh - SURPRISE!!! - the results are... crappy
And my games W/L ratio is about 1 where my K/D ratio is about 2.5 - what does that means? Nerf the all the other players so I can win?
And I personaly don't care about winning tbh - other things bring me satisfaction - so bring it on 10v12 if you wish.

In my opinion before starting doing such boolsheet tests they should've put both sides on "equal" terms - giving the clans at least some other lighter mechs than the heaviest in each chasis.
Also giving them the equal number of trial mechs the IS have with the same not-quite-optimized builds.
And so on...

Devs said something based on underthought things they did, broken MM, unoptimized world-times for test playing games to test it.
Devs which, probably summed up, play the game way less than I do, than you all do.
Can't really get why I am feeling the only one who doesn't see point in this

You have "because I believe it to be true so it must be true," and "the official numbers don't agree with my beliefs so they're false."

We have Facts. Do you remember what that means? An official statement from PGI with hard numbers.

Just because something doesn't fit within your view of things doesn't mean it's incorrect. It means the way you view things is false.

[Noth]

Jman5, on 07 August 2014 - 10:21 PM, said:

They did an Elo breakdown and the stats didn't line up even close to where they should have if Clans and IS were balanced.

You guys need to just accept that there is a major imbalance here and move on. Because you're starting to sound like Birthers demanding more and more elaborate proofs that Obama was born in the US.

Calling an average ELO a breakdown is laughable.

[Johnny Reb]

Jeb, on 07 August 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

You really think the Timberwolf would be so great if destroying ONE of it's ears (ST) killed it?
I used it because it is considered the best by so many, and how that one engine change would be so drastic.

Well, I first need to do that, could say the same about any clan mech. My IS mech in an xl is dead, you still have half weps, which is prolly the same or greater than my IS.

[Jeb]

headbasher, on 07 August 2014 - 11:53 PM, said:

Dude im not talking dropping eff down to 1% or anything. I think your overreacting a bit and with 90% some sh** needs to be done.

if you had read my previous posts, you would see I agree that clans need some fixes...

I personally feel the laser ranges give them a huge advantage...

But suggestions to change fixed engines to die to ST destruction would be way too far the other way...
I play both IS and Clan mechs right now... I still find both fun to play... I want to see solutions that keep both fun to play in the long run, not that nerf clans to the point they are useless...

[SolasTau]

Ok, let's talk about skill differential for a second here.

The most skilled players of the game are unquestionably the guys inside of PGI's test unit. They have played the game until it grinds to a total standstill looking for anything that could be upsetting.

According to Russ I believe, internal tests showed IS and Clans to have rough parity before Clans were launched in their various test chambers. This means either we were directly lied to about those matches and their results (possible, even likely), or that they are playing at such a skill level that they need to get a rotating focus group going on because they need people who play the game frequently are better so much better than everyone else.

Further more, while the elo scores may have been similar, there is also the consideration that he says himself-they tended to have more veteran accounts. A veteran may have a lower elo over a long period of time, yet still be a much better player than a newer player who's gotten lucky in their first several matches to just get their elo jacked up. Since his medium of contact was Twitter, there's a lot of information we don't have that I think would be incredibly pertinent to this discussion.

[Johnny Reb]

Noth, on 07 August 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Calling an average ELO a breakdown is laughable.

Doen;t exsist!

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Noth, on 07 August 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Calling an average ELO a breakdown is laughable.

Completely disregarding the Elo system in this game is laughable. You don't even know how the Elo system works in this game. Nobody does. Thinking something is irrelevant when you don't even know how it works is laughable.

[Kilo 40]

i really hope this pushes them towards 10v12.

not sure why they seem to be resisting it.

[Comrademig]

Why even bother arguing? Not even numbers (I mean really..90%?!?) are going to convince them.

[Johnny Reb]

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 07 August 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Completely disregarding the Elo system in this game is laughable. You don't even know how the Elo system works in this game. Nobody does. Thinking something is irrelevant when you don't even know how it works is laughable.

It seems pretty irrelevant as is. How it currently works. Trys....then grasps whatever to make match.

[Jeb]

Johnny Reb, on 07 August 2014 - 11:56 PM, said:

Well, I first need to do that, could say the same about any clan mech. My IS mech in an xl is dead, you still have half weps, which is prolly the same or greater than my IS.

except you have the option to run a standard engine in IS mechs that you can lose both STs and still live...

That is why I said if you changed the clan mechs to die on ST destruction, they would need to allow clan mechs to swap to non XL engines otherwise most clan mechs would become trash...

Yes there are probably some clan mechs that could do fine with the same XL engine rules as IS, but if that type change was made, the devs would have to rethink all the hit-boxes they tried to balance around the current clan XL design.

[Kyle Wright]

Wrenchfarm, on 07 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Oh I don't know, maybe it's the fact that most Clan weapons have far more range and damage for a trivial heat cost? A cost easily offset by their far superior tonnage efficiency and ability to boat far more DHS thanks to Endo and DHS taking fewer slots.

Maybe it's because when you destroy a Clan side torso, all you do is strip him of some of his weapons while an IS mech goes down like a sack of rocks?

Maybe it's because Clan weapons weight substantially less, take fewer slots, and frequently enjoy more hardpoints and better hardpoint variety than IS mechs? Maybe because several clan mechs can make Alpha builds that will core out Mediums and Lights in one salvo and cripple anything heavier?

Maybe it's the LRMs that will indefinitely shake a players screen and make fighting back all but impossible. Annoying when clans were introduced, DEVESTATING now that Clans can use them has point blank stun grenades.

But hey, those problems are not even the real issue. The fact that Clan mechs have chopped our already ridiculously short TTK now to nano-seconds and have made the game substantially less fun and more prone to random OHKOs just makes the game worse. The real insult is that these superior machines are locked behind a pay wall.

It's P2W at it's finest. Buy your Gold Ammo, insert extra quarters for a bigger health bar, bribe your way to victory.

The balance issues are frustrating and ruin any chance for fun. It's the P2W aspect that makes the game fundamentally broken and insulting.

Nerf the clans to a reasonable level, or make Clan tech available for all.

Just FYI they will eventually be out for cbills, though the release is slow as molasses. Right now it's pay for early access, someone has to fund the ******* habits of the dev and the gucci clothing of their wives and children. I bought the clan packs and I'd be pissed if they let them out way early cause then why spend real life money if all I needed was to wait a month or so and buy the ones I wanted for in game? Don't you think I could've spent the $190 on something better as I am a college student like beer?

[Jman5]

Yeonne Greene, on 07 August 2014 - 11:45 PM, said:

Did somebody say Clans winning 90%?

Let's do this! Uphill fights are the most satisfying fights. You have nothing to lose, everything to gain.

I would just like to say, that I sympathize with this line of thinking. I really do. In fact it's one of the driving factors for me in my mech choice. Picking something a little sub-optimal, practicing a lot with it and coming up with creative ways to make it work against traditional "stronger" mechs.

For me, stronger mechs are a puzzle and I need to come up with inventive approaches to dealing with them. That's fun for me and I guess it's fun for you too.

The problem is that the vast majority of players do not find this semi-masochistic approach fun. For them, the fun is knowing that when they step into a match things are fair and it's all about the best players winning. Knowing that one side is being given unfair advantages instantly turn the game into a dreadful experience. That's why you see so many people complaining about premades, Elo, and balance. Because most people do not want artificial imbalance injected into the game.

So if the game was just chock full of guys who make their own fun sailing against the wind against all odds, we could keep things as is. However, the reality is that the player population wont support that sort of gameplay.

[Mcgral18]

Wrenchfarm, on 07 August 2014 - 10:48 PM, said:

"B-bu-but, surely it was because the IS devils were riding into battle on crapmechs! Locust and Quickdraws far as the eye can see! It could not be that our weapons hit twice as hard, from twice as far. That our XL engines let us tank far more damage. That our Endo and DHS upgrades are far more efficient. That our LRMs completely blind enemies and can be used as a perma-flashbang up close. It was because the IS players drove LOCUSTS!"

I can't stop laughing at you. It's too much.

I did the math, just for you.

Out of 7 matches, there were 31 sub-optimal chassis, broken down:
5 catapults (3(C))
1 raven 2x
7 hunch
1 Spider 5V
2 commando
2 Awesome
4 Thunderbolt
1 Lolcust
1 Quickdraw
1 Cicada
3 Jenner (c)
3 Heavy Metals

31 Total


I was an Awesome once, did fairly poorly. But, 31 of 84 chassis were sub optimal, with a few 0 damage champ mechs, and apparently one FF incident, and the accused when to suicide into the Clans. Just a tad over a third. Some certainly worse than others, but wouldn't have made a big difference in most cases.


In other news...Just had an interesting match in the WubShee. 7 players sub 200 on our team. Those who did more got: 208, 240, 378, 416, 1470.

It went rather well, though the other team had 4 players with less than 10 damage! One was a Cicada I wubbed twice, so he's forgiven. The other two...seemed to be AFK at first, but apparently just didn't shoot anything. They both had 0 damage at the end, but were certainly moving around. Last two alive.

Makes me wonder what happens in the PUG queue sometimes...Why wouldn't you shoot?

[Hardac]

Certainly Clan mechs need to be brought into line with IS mechs. However, I seriously question why PGI is making generalized nerfs that DO NOT address the chassis that are over-performing and instead just make the under-performing ones far worse. This is very lazy game balancing.

[Johnny Reb]

I care less, I know clan mechs are better and this test with pugs will make it more so. I only run 2 mechs since clans came out both effectivly mostly. In fact my medium is top of all damage win or lose sometimes. Yes, its lrms but IS need lrms to beat clans. Dire, warhawk, even timber are great for my lrm5 macinegun. Love the little hats of dire and war! In my group we can deal but the pugs will fall hard. Fear the trial Kintro-18 cause mine does it better!

Edited by Johnny Reb, 08 August 2014 - 12:11 AM.

[Be Rough With Me Plz]

Have you even read what was tweeted? It's pretty clear if you actually comprehend what is being said.

SolasTau, on 07 August 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Ok, let's talk about skill differential for a second here.

The most skilled players of the game are unquestionably the guys inside of PGI's test unit. They have played the game until it grinds to a total standstill looking for anything that could be upsetting.

According to Russ I believe, internal tests showed IS and Clans to have rough parity before Clans were launched in their various test chambers. This means either we were directly lied to about those matches and their results (possible, even likely), or that they are playing at such a skill level that they need to get a rotating focus group going on because they need people who play the game frequently are better so much better than everyone else.

Proof of your claim of supposed parity before Clan Mechs were released?

SolasTau, on 07 August 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Further more, while the elo scores may have been similar, there is also the consideration that he says himself-they tended to have more veteran accounts. A veteran may have a lower elo over a long period of time, yet still be a much better player than a newer player who's gotten lucky in their first several matches to just get their elo jacked up.

Your "Elo is inaccurate" theory is b.s.

SolasTau, on 07 August 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

Since his medium of contact was Twitter, there's a lot of information we don't have that I think would be incredibly pertinent to this discussion.

That seems pretty clear to me.

But please, continue on with your delusions.

[Voidcrafter]

Wrenchfarm, on 07 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Oh I don't know, maybe it's the fact that most Clan weapons have far more range and damage for a trivial heat cost? A cost easily offset by their far superior tonnage efficiency and ability to boat far more DHS thanks to Endo and DHS taking fewer slots.

You said "boat" - you've lost me.
More range? Are you talking about ballistics too? Cause maaan those are sooo effective... I would sell my soul to have the standart AC20 on my TBR - then you'll have something to fear from.
As I stated - I don't boat LAZORZ, but I know that firing the only PPC the clans have is like candling a scout bonfire in the CT of your own mechs.
IS have the standart version - which I think all of us will agre is really, really good weapon - but sadly you would've been able to value it as you should only if the clans had it.
And about the rest - I would gladly swap some of the stuff you named for extra space and speed and... oooh waaait - I can't do that!
Right...

Wrenchfarm, on 07 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Maybe it's because when you destroy a Clan side torso, all you do is strip him of some of his weapons while an IS mech goes down like a sack of rocks?

Hey do you know where clans store their ammo?
Wanna give you a hint?
It's not in the head or the legs(except the DWF right leg) you know why?
Cause they have no free slots there.
Meaning - crit on a hand/Side torso --> bye bye body part. I think that was an idea of the whole balance thingy and it may not seems like a big deal, but it kinda it is - in the moment your armor's gone you should be almost 100% sure that the next shot will destroy your cored part internals and that's that.
Which, in fact, is resulting for you to drop down like a sack of rocks.
Oh and if you take a look on the hardpoints and you can judge by the load what's the oponent's clan mech have put on - you can really make it uneffective with few shots. But that thing is about knowledge and skills and adaptation and the exsistence of those topics popin' up all around speaks to me that all those are next to non-existent

Wrenchfarm, on 07 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Maybe it's because Clan weapons weight substantially less, take fewer slots, and frequently enjoy more hardpoints and better hardpoint variety than IS mechs? Maybe because several clan mechs can make Alpha builds that will core out Mediums and Lights in one salvo and cripple anything heavier?

And what build is that? Can you please tell me and make up your mind already?
The only builds that can do it are the meta ones - which is not kinda Clan issue won't you agree?
Clans do it better. The meta allows it - it's something that HAVE to be fixed and I'm cryin for that as a lil' girly right after I saw the first poptart.
I just hate the 2xGauss 2xCERPPC DWF build or any other variety of 2xCGauss + XXxCERLL - it's not right - but again - it's a meta thing and Clans are doing it just cause they can.
Brawlers?
Brawling's dead in most of the community's opinion(there's a topic for that - I was quite active there, but noone seems to believe me it's alive).
Alphas... pffffff... IS were doing this sheet before it was even cool(hint: it was never cool.)

Wrenchfarm, on 07 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

Maybe it's the LRMs that will indefinitely shake a players screen and make fighting back all but impossible. Annoying when clans were introduced, DEVESTATING now that Clans can use them has point blank stun grenades.

Get a single AMS - since all the cool boyZ are bringing LRMs and I gotto tell you this - Clan LRMs feels like a bug on your shoulder when that evil LRM60+ Stalker got his big red circle of death on you.
The spread of LRMs are so ridiculous that I keep wondering why people are using them but then I answer myself - NO FRIGGIN ONE IS BRINGIN' AMS.
Artemis or no Artemis - the same boolsheet - I don't like LRMs - they're too optional weapon - and I say this a sa brawler(which means when I'm shooting someone I am always targeted - that provided the dude I'm facewrecking haven't gone on full tard and got a sudden brust of intellectual spike that made him press "R" ) - I'm constantly under LRMs. Every night. Every game.
LRMs have been, are, and will be the killer of the payers who don't pay attention to the game enough(at least in ~70-80+% of the time).
You got a facehuggin brawler build? Hug that LRM TBR and that's that.
You got a long range build? Shoot it and use cover FROM A PLACE THAT ALLOW YOU TO USE COVER.
You've engaged in in open space 500<-->150m away? Yea. You got issues. That's the idea.
Most ppl don't have the ballZ and are bringing LRMs to the match?
Don't see how that's a clan issue.
You can ask around if you don't believe me - ask if AMS is equally good against bot IS and Clans LRMs - I can tell you just right now - AMS EATS Clan LRMs.
Eats them.
EDIT: Forgot to mention that I personally never bring AMS for a very simple reason:
I concluded looong time ago that when I get melted from LRMs that means only one thing - I've done too many mistakes durring that match.
Brawling is really unforgiving toward the mistakes you make - it's probably the most unforgiving playstyle - so you get the hang of it at some point. The maps don't help that much - but hey - what can you do about it
So in the time that AMS is supose to start shooting stuff I know for myself that's a bit late to fix my wrongs - that's how I do it anyways.

Wrenchfarm, on 07 August 2014 - 11:42 PM, said:

But hey, those problems are not even the real issue. The fact that Clan mechs have chopped our already ridiculously short TTK now to nano-seconds and have made the game substantially less fun and more prone to random OHKOs just makes the game worse. The real insult is that these superior machines are locked behind a pay wall.

It's P2W at it's finest. Buy your Gold Ammo, insert extra quarters for a bigger health bar, bribe your way to victory.

The balance issues are frustrating and ruin any chance for fun. It's the P2W aspect that makes the game fundamentally broken and insulting.

Nerf the clans to a reasonable level, or make Clan tech available for all.

And by your words to me it seems you either haven't played with clan mechs or you haven't done it enough.
Or you got some playstyle issues no matter which one is it or if it's either one.
Nerf the stupid option for making your mech being effective while using 0 imagination when creating a build and making it just "cause it works".
You know why "it works"?
Most people use it. That's why.
1 LRM boat, 1 poptart, 1 Boom Jagger, 1 Gauss Cat. 1 Dakka DWF.
1.
Now make that number 6. Doesn't seems that fun anymore, does it?
I reject(as always) to join the tides of this sheet.
And thus - I think I have a bit different point of view
I find my ways to kill stuff rather than complaining - and btw I am playing with my IS mechs too - from time to time - they're still valiable.
Adapt to the friggin clans - they're not OP as you all describe them, they require a bit more open minded approach and different strategy.
I've said this some times already and I'll say it again -
piloting Clans made me a better IS pilot.
And for good reasons.

Edited by Voidcrafter, 08 August 2014 - 12:23 AM.

[Sug]

Noth, on 07 August 2014 - 11:55 PM, said:

Calling an average ELO a breakdown is laughable.

The way they're using Elo is laughable.

Be Rough With Me Plz, on 07 August 2014 - 11:57 PM, said:

You don't even know how the Elo system works in this game. Nobody does. Thinking something is irrelevant when you don't even know how it works is laughable.

The devs have explained how Elo scores and the matchmaker work many times. The only thing we don't know is what our scores are.

Edited by Sug, 08 August 2014 - 12:15 AM.

[Y E O N N E]

Jman5, on 08 August 2014 - 12:05 AM, said:

I would just like to say, that I sympathize with this line of thinking. I really do. In fact it's one of the driving factors for me in my mech choice. Picking something a little sub-optimal, practicing a lot with it and coming up with creative ways to make it work against traditional "stronger" mechs.

For me, stronger mechs are a puzzle and I need to come up with inventive approaches to dealing with them. That's fun for me and I guess it's fun for you too.

The problem is that the vast majority of players do not find this semi-masochistic approach fun. For them, the fun is knowing that when they step into a match things are fair and it's all about the best players winning. Knowing that one side is being given unfair advantages instantly turn the game into a dreadful experience. That's why you see so many people complaining about premades, Elo, and balance. Because most people do not want artificial imbalance injected into the game.

So if the game was just chock full of guys who make their own fun sailing against the wind against all odds, we could keep things as is. However, the reality is that the player population wont support that sort of gameplay.

Oh, I'm well aware that I...and you...are oddballs. I would prefer the game to be balanced but instead it's just a joke in that department and the fact that it has aspirations toward the competitive scene makes me giddy in my chair with laughter. That said, it's still a fun joke to play and so I choose to give the existing system the finger by playing commonly accepted "suboptimal" machines. I even recently just joined House Davion simply because I spend most of my time in Blackjacks and Locusts; they just click with me. Honestly, with a game this broken it's not worth it to stress over being "the best" because being "the best" is nothing to be proud of. Just play what you like and go with it.

Also, hi! I see you on the battlefield all the time.