297 replies to this topic

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Gallowglas, on 27 August 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

If you look at the breakdown of the various completion states, I don't think it's anything to be worried about specifically. The IS battle for control of planets part, which is the bulk of what I think most of us think about when we talk CW, is still at 15%.

http://www.mwomercs.com/theplan#1

But BLOODWOLF says it's due in months!

Not years!....although it's already been years.......

Edited by DV McKenna, 27 August 2014 - 09:09 AM.

[BLOOD WOLF]

DV McKenna, on 27 August 2014 - 09:06 AM, said:

Question.

Why would you, a competent trained developer design a UI that prevents you from adding your other features you have planned?

I am sure they did not predict that they would have as much trouble as they did, If we can all read the future we would be much richer men/women

[Oderint dum Metuant]

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 August 2014 - 09:08 AM, said:

I am sure they did not predict that they would have as much trouble as they did, If we can all read the future we would be much richer men/women

So basically you don't have an answer that is obviously incompetence.

If you design a game around modules, to be added later then surely it is common sense that you design your game around being able to add said modules?

I mean why would do twice the work?

Edited by DV McKenna, 27 August 2014 - 09:10 AM.

[Revis Volek]

Roland, on 27 August 2014 - 09:04 AM, said:

We actually gave PGI millions of dollars way back in the founders program... And then more in the Phoenix program... and then more in the clan program.

Also, bear in mind, there was like ONE $15k ship in star citizen... basically a package that, if you bought it, let you actually have lunch with Chris Roberts himself a few times.

I understand, we have all gave them money...some more then others. But SC has surpassed $40 Million in Fund for the game....are you aware of how much MWO had? I bet it wasn't half that much.

Do you also think Ferrari and Kia should have the same stuff in their cars (Interior, Engine, Wheels, Paint) even though they have different price tags? Not trying to be rude, just curious. This game is NOT SC and i dont think can even hope to be or even compete.

Edited by DarthRevis, 27 August 2014 - 09:14 AM.

[Kell Commander]

Heffay, on 27 August 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

Dropship mode!! Yeehaw!

Dropship mode got canned. I don't remember what post I saw the link in but that isn't happening anymore.

Also Bloodwolf, 2 years ago I had a similar mentality that you had. I tried to be optimistic, looking toward the future of the game thinking how it could only get better. Then time and again, delay after delay after delay. Sure I still play the game, but I have almost no faith that CW will be anything close to what PGI envisioned.

The fact that the went and deleted bases from Assault and screamed "Everybody look! New Game mode!" Despite that it is pretty much the same game mode, especially since adding turrets to Assault. The fact that we haven't seen a new map since HPG or Crinson Strait, but were told years ago that once they had the moon texture down making new maps would be easier and quicker. The fact that it's been so long since we got a new map that I can't remember which one is the newest is appalling.

The whole MC structure is a complete ripoff, no single mech should cost more than $30.

This is something that should have been added so long ago, it really shouldn't surprise anyone that the community is less "yay we can make units" and more "about damn time this showed up."

[BLOOD WOLF]

DV McKenna, on 27 August 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

So basically you don't have an answer that is obviously incompetence.

If you design a game around modules, to be added later then surely it is common sense that you design your game around being able to add said modules?

I mean why would do twice the work?

No, any answer you come up with will mean their incompetence. I do have an answer and I just gave it. Its not incompetence to be hit by a problem. Do you think to highly of yourself to be free from the same situation or do you live a perfect life?

They needed UI 2.0 for what they needed. For whatever reason they thought they could do it on the old UI. they done goofed. That was then, and this is now. They tried, they couldnt, they did now, and it works. That is all that matters. At least with the Ui 2.0 they can achieve what they want.

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 August 2014 - 09:03 AM, said:

A piece is still the whole. Just like your body. It is made up of a different parts, to make up a whole

exactly, you wouldn't pick up an arm and say "I've got Bill over here" now would you?
it would be "I've got a piece of bill over here"

it's NOT the complete and finished product. It's a PIECE of CW. That's all. CW is NOT here. If CW were here then the roadmap would read 100% now wouldn't it?

[BLOOD WOLF]

Kell Commander, on 27 August 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

Dropship mode got canned. I don't remember what post I saw the link in but that isn't happening anymore.

Also Bloodwolf, 2 years ago I had a similar mentality that you had. I tried to be optimistic, looking toward the future of the game thinking how it could only get better. Then time and again, delay after delay after delay. Sure I still play the game, but I have almost no faith that CW will be anything close to what PGI envisioned.

The fact that the went and deleted bases from Assault and screamed "Everybody look! New Game mode!" Despite that it is pretty much the same game mode, especially since adding turrets to Assault. The fact that we haven't seen a new map since HPG or Crinson Strait, but were told years ago that once they had the moon texture down making new maps would be easier and quicker. The fact that it's been so long since we got a new map that I can't remember which one is the newest is appalling.

The whole MC structure is a complete ripoff, no single mech should cost more than $30.

This is something that should have been added so long ago, it really shouldn't surprise anyone that the community is less "yay we can make units" and more "about damn time this showed up."

Fair enough, But I will see if that has any substance by the end of the year. If it is what you say then I will be inclined to lean the other way, or not. If you can be wrong you can be right, and vice verse.

Sandpit, on 27 August 2014 - 09:19 AM, said:

exactly, you wouldn't pick up an arm and say "I've got Bill over here" now would you?
it would be "I've got a piece of bill over here"

it's NOT the complete and finished product. It's a PIECE of CW. That's all. CW is NOT here. If CW were here then the roadmap would read 100% now wouldn't it?

Well technically yea, a piece of bill even the arm is still bill. So yea, i would say I got a part of him

CW is 75, I never said it was 100, that just means its not complete, but that doesnt mean its not here. This is turning to much into a bloodwolf vs everybody discussion.

If you feel that CW is not going to be here that is fine, I guess we dont have much to discuss, but By kerensky some of us think the game can is and will go somewhere. I will still conversation, just tone it down some. I dont want to turn this into Global debate.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 27 August 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Deathlike]

Kell Commander, on 27 August 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

Dropship mode got canned. I don't remember what post I saw the link in but that isn't happening anymore.

Here's the irony, it was made official in an ATD that BLOOD WOLF probably did not read. Sad.

Quote

This is something that should have been added so long ago, it really shouldn't surprise anyone that the community is less "yay we can make units" and more "about damn time this showed up."

QFT

[Sandpit]

DV McKenna, on 27 August 2014 - 09:09 AM, said:

So basically you don't have an answer that is obviously incompetence.

If you design a game around modules, to be added later then surely it is common sense that you design your game around being able to add said modules?

I mean why would do twice the work?

I don't think it's incompetence. It's poor project management. A well managed and organized project and project manager aren't going to require an entire company to shut down production for 6 months to produce 10 mechs. It's not that the staff doesn't know how to do their jobs, it's more of management doesn't know how to organize, manage time, and lead their teams.
The best coder in the world isn't going to be able to get anything done if their manager keeps shifting their resources, priorities, and focus.

[Lyoto Machida]

Blakkstar, on 27 August 2014 - 06:05 AM, said:

The option that would have made the most sense would be a system like EVE. Drop players into NPC units (like EVE's NPC corps), which are from canon. A new Kurita character could wind up in Sword of Light, etc. No leaders and reduced unit functions, but you get introduced to unit play and can quickly group up for games, etc.

Then players can create their own units either as House-affiliated mercs (think McCarron's Armored Cavalry for Liao) or independent guns for hire (like Wolf's Dragoons). Each House would provide some kind of bonus to its affiliated NPC or merc units, and Independent Mercs would get some sort of different advantages and disadvantages for being able to jump between employers.

Would work beautifully, follow the canon, and automatically provide a pipeline for new players to get invested in CW.

Well, considering the website is called "MWOMercs.com," I'm guessing that should have been a clue as to what their focus was going to be on.

Vassago Rain, on 27 August 2014 - 07:16 AM, said:

No, it won't be, because the initial planned costs were based around battletech income - which is why you'd be making anywhere from 300k to 1 million a game, with paid repairs and ammunition, and different maintenance costs depending on mech class and tech used.

The deal was that you'd have your own little stable of robots, that you put in your dropship (that would hold anywhere from 4 to 12 robots, each dropship costing anywhere from 80 to 350 million each), and you'd be fighting over territory against other players, so you could assemble more robots cheaper/faster/steal better tech/etc.

All these players would, ideally, be formed up into guilds under one name or another, and guilds would form loose alliances. There would likely be resetting ladders to keep score.

There are a bunch of problems with everything here.

1) RnR was awful, and/or PGI didn't have the skill to implement a functional one. Scrapped november 2012.
2) we never got information warfare or role warfare. It's ECM warfare and module grind warfare now. 2014 dropships would be all the best and biggest ships, full of assault gundams, outfitted with tens of millions in modules and consumables.
3) we never got said dropships, despite them supposedly coming in as mutators well before conquest, late 2012. Dropship mode was silently scrapped early 2013.
4) modules are magical end-game content. Mechs, while expensive on their own, are costed like EVE online ships now, in that the robot will be X million, but you'll likely be using a much bigger c-bill value of models to power the truly good ones. Losing something like that would be a disastrous, completely unacceptable goal.
5) assets were initially supposed to be destructible.
6) 2011-2012 PGI were implying there'd be procedurally generated maps, which is another word for 'all battlefields and planets will be generated on the fly, and not need separate hand-crafted, expensive maps, that take a long time to build.' It is IMPOSSIBLE to do any kind of community warfare that won't turn into a snore fest with 10 maps.
6) consumables have ruined the old c-bill to item balance.
7) income is now down from -X to +200k on a solid win. This isn't enough to farm out hundred million dollar dropships, or outfit companies of mechs. If RnR was in effect, it wouldn't be enough to fix up damaged equipment or mechs.
8) PGI has obviously scrapped the entire old income model. We now make peanuts, and the atlas has been called 'the top-tier end-game avatar' by Paul and Bryan. It's meant to be better than the awesome, which is a mere low-tier assault avatar.
9) they're not gonna overhaul the entire game to fit old man dreams of being the most pro mercenaries in. It's not gonna happen. Not after they spent years getting us to where we are today.
10) MWO will never be the game you think it should be. It'll never live up to its 'potential.' It's a livelihood of Russ, Bryan, Paul, Niko, Mr. Berg, and partially NGNG guys like Phil and Bombadil. This is how they make their paycheck, and they're not gonna risk it when they're making money already. You're playing the finished product. It's a pretty solid, if shallow, F2P robot shooter, but it is what it is.









I'm sorry.

[Deathlike]

Sandpit, on 27 August 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

I don't think it's incompetence. It's poor project management. A well managed and organized project and project manager aren't going to require an entire company to shut down production for 6 months to produce 10 mechs. It's not that the staff doesn't know how to do their jobs, it's more of management doesn't know how to organize, manage time, and lead their teams.
The best coder in the world isn't going to be able to get anything done if their manager keeps shifting their resources, priorities, and focus.

TBH, the former (incompetence) can actually affect the latter (poor project management).

So, in some ways, there is actual synergy!

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 August 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

CW is 75, I never said it was 100

You've said repeatedly that CW is here. In numerous threads dude. CW is NOT here, unit affiliation is here. There's a difference and that's all I'm pointing out.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Lyoto Machida, on 27 August 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

Well, considering the website is called "MWOMercs.com," I'm guessing that should have been a clue as to what their focus was going to be on.

Since we technically can not take Lore names or units.

Sandpit, on 27 August 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

You've said repeatedly that CW is here. In numerous threads dude. CW is NOT here, unit affiliation is here. There's a difference and that's all I'm pointing out.

Of course their is a difference.

Take a burger and split it in half, what do you have? 2 smaller pieces of a burger. CW is not one big project, it is multiple aspects drawn into one and comprised of many things.

Take the Idea of CW. Battles, Economy, and The people that have to fight the battle and manage the economy. does that make sense.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 27 August 2014 - 09:29 AM.

[Sarlic]

Deathlike, on 27 August 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

TBH, the former (incompetence) can actually affect the latter (poor project management).

So, in some ways, there is actual synergy!

Get rid if the poor project management and break the current cycle. Fire the leaddesigner.

Fix the current game and release content bug-free as much possible. Only release when it's done.

Apply balance solutions and gather as much feedback as possible from the forums and test servers

Keep community regulary updated.

This is even too hard for PGI considering how awful the new map is bugged.

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sarlic, on 27 August 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Get rid if the poor project management and break the current cycle. Fire the leaddesigner.

Fix the current game and release content bug-free as much possible. Only release when it's done.

Apply balance solutions and gather as much feedback as possible from the forums and test servers

Keep community regulary updated.

This is even too hard for PGI considering how awful the new map is bugged.

This isnt a whine thread, or a place to complain about what is wrong with PGI. I am sure we heard it before. if you are going to do that, at least keep it on Topic.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 27 August 2014 - 09:34 AM.

[Sandpit]

Deathlike, on 27 August 2014 - 09:22 AM, said:

TBH, the former (incompetence) can actually affect the latter (poor project management).

So, in some ways, there is actual synergy!

I just honestly don't think they hired a bunch of scrubs that didn't know what they were doing. Most of what I see isn't "incompetence" as far as coding goes. It's more the types of problems and delays you see when you project managers and leads can't keep a team focused and on-task. it's more of what you see when management constantly shifts it's focus requiring hours, days, and weeks, of work to be scrapped and started over or thrown to the backburner.

The clan mechs were what opened my eyes on that. If a multi-million dollar professional game company has to shut down its entire production cycle for 6 months to implement 10 mechs, that's an organizational issue. That's leadership. Look at how Paul and Russ interact with their community. They clearly have NEVER had to deal directly with the public or an audience before. It shows in their mocking and trolling of customers. Nobody that has ever worked in any kind of customer service would approve of or be "ok" with that.

When you step back and look at all of the little pieces it becomes apparent that PGi was not ready to be the lead developer on a game and run its own company. Being a great designer does not equate to being a great leader. 3 years of development and we still don't have industry standards such as
lobbies
voip
campaigns
tutorials
social tools
maps produced for less than $250,000
etc.
Those are leadership and direction issues, not competency (unless you're talking about being competent as a leader)

[BLOOD WOLF]

Sanpit, you must have been typing that while I was tryping.

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 August 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

This isnt a whine thread, or a place to complain about what is wrong with PGI. I am sure we heard it before. if you are going to do that, at least keep it on Topic.

We hear all that before. This isnt the place to talk about stuff like that. If you want i can make a stone PGI thread, and hand you guys rocks.

Usually I dont care to much, but I like too keep some traction in this thread.

Edited by BLOOD WOLF, 27 August 2014 - 09:39 AM.

[Johnny Z]

DarthRevis, on 27 August 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

I understand, we have all gave them money...some more then others. But SC has surpassed $40 Million in Fund for the game....are you aware of how much MWO had? I bet it wasn't half that much.

Do you also think Ferrari and Kia should have the same stuff in their cars (Interior, Engine, Wheels, Paint) even though they have different price tags? Not trying to be rude, just curious. This game is NOT SC and i dont think can even hope to be or even compete.

Right now Star Citizen is almost entirely smoke and mirrors. I havnt tried it but I bet anyone would choose to play Mechwarrior over SC at this time.

I actually hope SC does good because I enjoy space games I consider Mechwarrior a space game also. Although at this time there isnt even a pic of a dropship yet, unless you count the cockpit item, which is actually pretty cool.

SC has promised alot and are living on those promises, unless something has changed for that game I am unaware of.

Also the only addition to faction warfare last update was the Inner Sphere map. But the other additions can be used for other aspects of faction warfare also. So it was a huge update.

Right now at this moment Mechwarrior has the best combat of any online game out in my opinion. Straight up.

Hawken has alot of things, like some of the tutorial aspects I would like to see in Mechwarrior. Alot of that game is well done and I am sure Mechwarrior will have some of those things some time. But I played Hawken for 1 day and uninstalled. No offense because I like mech games and all. But that one is to FPS shooter clone for me, where as MW has alot of elements to mech builds and so on.

AND like SC Mechwarrior has made alot of promises and is somewhat living on those. Nothing wrong with great expectations.

Anyway, we will have to see how it goes from here. Keep those pitch forks and torches handy

[Sandpit]

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 August 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

CW is not one big project, it is multiple aspects drawn into one and comprised of many things.

ahhhh
now I'm beginning to understand better...


Yes, CW IS one big project. It's broken down into pieces to make handling and implementing that one big project easier to manage and develop. It's just like cooking. Your overall project is to make your dish. In order to accomplish that you have to break it down into ingredients.

You're trying to make it seem like any singular piece or "ingredient" is the dish itself. it's not. Until that "ingredient" is put together with all the other ingredients, properly prepared, cooked, and served, you do not have a dish.
Same thing here.

Now if they stay true to their deadlines it will be a moot point within the next couple of months. Time will tell but we'll see. We got the equivalent of guilds yesterday. I don't see how CW is 75% complete now which also concerns me.

unit affiliation is 75% of CW? if that's the case then I think everyone is going to be sorely disappointed (well except the PGI cheerleading squad but they will be very lonely)

BLOOD WOLF, on 27 August 2014 - 09:38 AM, said:

Sanpit, you must have been typing that while I was tryping.
We hear all that before. This isnt the place to talk about stuff like that. If you want i can make a stone PGI thread, and hand you guys rocks.

Usually I dont care to much, but I like too keep some traction in this thread.

No, I read your post, mine was in direct response to other calling PGI incompetent to which I disagreed with. (maybe you should read posts better?)