353 replies to this topic

[PhoenixFire55]

DocBach, on 18 September 2014 - 09:05 AM, said:

No, LRM's are affected by tracking strength, which makes them less effective the faster the target is moving. Hence light 'Mechs don't take much damage from LRM's unless they're augmented with a buff like TAG or Artemis.

And again, it doesn't matter. They'll spread out more depending on their tracking speed, but if the initial "stationary" spread is too tight then the spread on the moving target will also be tighter than it should be. Plus, instead of following the target they should lead it.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

The issue you are not grasping is that when a mech is moving against LRMs you don't hit CT unless it is facing directly towards you and moving incredibly slow. If it turns away, they hit a different component. If they are moving fast and lateral to you the missiles chase them arcing in and so they could be facing you the whole time and the missiles can come in from the side and hit R/L Torso/Arm.

And once again, if you'd actually read from the start ...
LRMs should NOT hit CT mostly even if mech is facing them head on. Period. Streaks do not do it, LRMs should not do it either.

[Mercules]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 09:13 AM, said:

Its the same. It can be "narrow" as in instead of 25% missiles hitting the target anywhere 50% of missiles do. Or it can be "narrow" as in instead of 50% missiles hitting CT, 90% do. Spread patterns on LRMs are just too tight.



Doesn't matter. It dies through CT while nothing else is damaged anywhere near as bad. Tiny fkn Commando mech.



You are completely ignoring my point yet again and turning the discussion somewhere else.



Dude, just read what I wrote before you post another useless comment, will ya?



It is exactly same for LRMs. If your target is in the open they don't miss.



And if you actually bother to read ... point was always about the lack of spread that eventually leads to CT blown off on most mechs.

At the end of all your statements all I got was, "If my target is stupid they die to their CT being cored!" Um... yeah, just like with the majority of the weapon systems. Streaks are the ONLY exception and really if your target is going to stand there long enough for LRMs to hit them then a Streakapult probably would have demolished or killed them just as easily.

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

And once again, if you'd actually read from the start ...
LRMs should NOT hit CT mostly even if mech is facing them head on. Period. Streaks do not do it, LRMs should not do it either.

Because? This is your premise but you haven't supported it with any sort of logical reasoning as to WHY LRMs should not hit CT. Yelling that it shouldn't be so is not the same as explaining why in your really flawed opinion it should not be so.

[Kitty Bacon]

As an LRM pilot myself, using ether the C4 Catapult with dual LRM20s or the Timber with dual 20s, I have found that LRMs are a give or take weapon. Most of the time in a match, you are sitting there being a useless mech because of ECM/AMS/lights harassing you. Unless the enemy team does the usual thing of not take AMS, Radar Derp, ECM, doesn't use cover, ect, most LRM boats are useless until that lock comes.

ECM, right now, is the number one counter to LRMs. One really good Kit Fox pilot, with 3 AMS and ECM, can pretty much shut down the map from LRMs since its 3 AMS can shoot down half of the missiles or more that fly around it, and its ECM keeps its allies shielded. A UAV is the only way to really counter ECM for LRM mechs since to put a tag on target with PPC/AC5 or dual Gauss running around is suicide. You poke your head up and you are dead before you knew what happened. I carry a Narc on my Timberwolf with the dual LRM20s, because it works. Narc something and expose yourself to fire, sit back and make it rain until they ether disappear, find cover or your missiles don't make it through the AMS screen.

Seriously, if every mech on a team had AMS, just one with 1 ton of ammo, LRMs would be 100% useless unless you had a Stalker with 4 LRM20s and was alpha-ing. LRMs have the most counters in the game and can be shut down in the easiest ways possible, plus they are the most team dependent weapon system in the game.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

Because? This is your premise but you haven't supported it with any sort of logical reasoning as to WHY LRMs should not hit CT. Yelling that it shouldn't be so is not the same as explaining why in your really flawed opinion it should not be so.

Because we've been over this already with Streaks? They also aimed for center of mass and just happened to damage and splash-damage the CT with 90% of the total damage they did to a mech. Currently LRM5s are doing exactly the same, bigger LRM launchers also to a lesser degree. If Streaks were deemed unbalanced and were eventually fixed than so should LRMs.

[Joseph Mallan]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Because we've been over this already with Streaks? They also aimed for center of mass and just happened to damage and splash-damage the CT with 90% of the total damage they did to a mech. Currently LRM5s are doing exactly the same, bigger LRM launchers also to a lesser degree. If Streaks were deemed unbalanced and were eventually fixed than so should LRMs.

If you are facing me, and my crosshairs are on you the center of the missile mass should hit roughly from the middle out. If you are Profile to me My Missiles should hit Arm, Side (front and back) Center Front and back, from most to least.

[Mercules]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 09:26 AM, said:

Because we've been over this already with Streaks? They also aimed for center of mass and just happened to damage and splash-damage the CT with 90% of the total damage they did to a mech. Currently LRM5s are doing exactly the same, bigger LRM launchers also to a lesser degree. If Streaks were deemed unbalanced and were eventually fixed than so should LRMs.

Some of A is X. Some of A is Y. X is imbalanced so Y is imbalanced.

Your argument is a fallacy of the Undistributed Middle.

Just because LRMs and SRMs share a lock on component doesn't mean that if one is imbalanced then the other is. The other Variables such as a minimum range that is BEYOND where BAP can counter ECM, Slower Speed, SSRMs having a nearly 100% hit rate, and such make the two systems different enough that one small factor that is imbalanced in one does not make the other imbalanced.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

The other Variables such as a minimum range that is BEYOND where BAP can counter ECM...

Friendly BAP solves the problem. You all claim LRMs are a true teamwork weapon so use teamwork. Plus, TAG or Narc cancel ECM just fine, and they have ranges far beyond LRM min range.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

Slower Speed

Oh yeah, 160m/s vs 200m/s, so much slower ...

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

SSRMs having a nearly 100% hit rate

So do LRMs from the same 270m and closer range.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 09:34 AM, said:

and such make the two systems different enough that one small factor that is imbalanced in one does not make the other imbalanced.

The one that is inferior (SSRMs) was nerfed to be balanced. The one that is superior (LRMs - go over obstacles and have a far greater range) wasn't. But surely you can keep ensuring yourself that 90%-CT-hitting weapon is balanced.

[Mcgral18]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

The one that is inferior (SSRMs) was nerfed to be balanced. The one that is superior (LRMs - go over obstacles and have a far greater range) wasn't. But surely you can keep ensuring yourself that 90%-CT-hitting weapon is balanced.

It only does that against the Bads, at 300M, with a 1 ton and 1 energy slot cost, plus one additional ton per launcher, then however much ammo you want, then you can finally add the tonnage of the launcher.

If people are going to facetank LRMs, they are going to facetank every other weapon system....and LRMs still spread. Perhaps not 5+As, but spread gets progressively worse as launchers get bigger, hence why multiple small launchers is better than a single large one.

[Mercules]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Friendly BAP solves the problem. You all claim LRMs are a true teamwork weapon so use teamwork. Plus, TAG or Narc cancel ECM just fine, and they have ranges far beyond LRM min range.

So... Show of hands.

How many people using streaks bring a BAP as it is immediately useful and needed to make their Streaks work? Oh... that many. Okay I figured it would be quite a few.

How many people who are not using streaks or designated spotters for LRMs being a BAP since it's superfluous and takes up weight and tonnage? Um... I see we have one guy in the back there... anyone else?

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

Oh yeah, 160m/s vs 200m/s, so much slower ...

engagement range for LRMs 180 to 1000
engagement range for Streaks 0-270 or 0-360

So... LRM doesn't even make it to it's minimum range in 1 second. Even at it's maximum range a Streak will hit the mech within 2 seconds and at anything under 200 it hits you basically, "Fired-BAM!" Streaks do NOT miss. They only don't hit if something comes between the mech and the missile or it moves out of range. Doesn't matter if the mech jumps, twists, turns, runs, walks, does the worm, stands on it's tip-toes, doubles over in exhaustion. Streaks will hit it EVEN IF I LOSE LOCK AFTER FIRING! LRMs travel so far, and so slow that it is easy to break LoS, get into ECM, draw them over multiple AMS systems, angle them into terrain.

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

So do LRMs from the same 270m and closer range.

Except Once fired I can look away from my target and spread damage while using Streaks. I can not do that and have my LRMs still track. SRMs also cover the majority of their available range in less than a second. At no point can an IS LRM hit it's target in a second and do damage. Big difference.

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

The one that is inferior (SSRMs) was nerfed to be balanced. The one that is superior (LRMs - go over obstacles and have a far greater range) wasn't. But surely you can keep ensuring yourself that 90%-CT-hitting weapon is balanced.

Uh, huh... you keep telling yourself LRMs are superior to SSRMs.
C-LRM 15 6 6,810 2,467 36.23% 00:43:00 2,446

C-LRM 20 7 4,860 1,915 39.40% 00:30:25 1,725

C-STREAK SRM 4 12 1,120 884 78.93% 00:57:13 1,756

C-STREAK SRM 6 30 6,426 4,639 72.19% 02:32:08 9,465
I don't use LRMs much and I tend to use Streak SRMs as a deterrent to Lights, but in the matches I have used the two systems(I haven't used IS LRMs recent enough to have valid data on it) you will notice a particular thing. The stats track each individual missile. So I've fired less SSRM 6 missiles than I have LRM15. I've just about doubled the number of missiles hitting and SSRMs do 2 damage per missile hit instead of 1.1. I've fired roughly the same amount of missiles, hit with almost twice as many SSRMs and do almost twice the damage with SSRMs. Looks like SSRMs are more efficient than LRMs and more effective at doing damage. Imagine if that almost 4x the amount of damage I am dealing with LRMs went to the CT. THAT is why they got nerfed.

Edited by Mercules, 18 September 2014 - 11:35 AM.

[Moomtazz]

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

So... Show of hands.

How many people using streaks bring a BAP as it is immediately useful and needed to make their Streaks work? Oh... that many. Okay I figured it would be quite a few.

How many people who are not using streaks or designated spotters for LRMs being a BAP since it's superfluous and takes up weight and tonnage? Um... I see we have one guy in the back there... anyone else?


engagement range for LRMs 180 to 1000
engagement range for Streaks 0-270 or 0-360

So... LRM doesn't even make it to it's minimum range in 1 second. Even at it's maximum range a Streak will hit the mech within 2 seconds and at anything under 200 it hits you basically, "Fired-BAM!" Streaks do NOT miss. They only don't hit if something comes between the mech and the missile or it moves out of range. Doesn't matter if the mech jumps, twists, turns, runs, walks, does the worm, stands on it's tip-toes, doubles over in exhaustion. Streaks will hit it EVEN IF I LOSE LOCK AFTER FIRING! LRMs travel so far, and so slow that it is easy to break LoS, get into ECM, draw them over multiple AMS systems, angle them into terrain.


Except Once fired I can look away from my target and spread damage while using Streaks. I can not do that and have my LRMs still track. SRMs also cover the majority of their available range in less than a second. At no point can an IS LRM hit it's target in a second and do damage. Big difference.




Uh, huh... you keep telling yourself LRMs are superior to SSRMs.
C-LRM 15 6 6,810 2,467 36.23% 00:43:00 2,446

C-LRM 20 7 4,860 1,915 39.40% 00:30:25 1,725

C-STREAK SRM 4 12 1,120 884 78.93% 00:57:13 1,756

C-STREAK SRM 6 30 6,426 4,639 72.19% 02:32:08 9,465
I don't use LRMs much and I tend to use Streak SRMs as a deterrent to Lights, but in the matches I have used the two systems(I haven't used IS LRMs recent enough to have valid data on it) you will notice a particular thing. The stats track each individual missile. So I've fired less SSRM 6 missiles than I have LRM15. I've just about doubled the number of missiles hitting and SSRMs do 2 damage per missile hit instead of 1.1. I've fired roughly the same amount of missiles, hit with almost twice as many SSRMs and do almost twice the damage with SSRMs. Looks like SSRMs are more efficient than LRMs and more effective at doing damage. Imagine if that almost 4x the amount of damage I am dealing with LRMs went to the CT. THAT is why they got nerfed.

Awesome this dude just rolls lockons 24/7. Can't expect him to be objective. Boring way to play but hey if it's all you can do then go for it.

[LORD ORION]

PhoenixFire55, on 18 September 2014 - 09:18 AM, said:

And once again, if you'd actually read from the start ...
LRMs should NOT hit CT mostly even if mech is facing them head on. Period. Streaks do not do it, LRMs should not do it either.

It can't work, because a perpendicular moving mech already DOESN'T get hit in the centre torso.

LRM skill use is about piloting.
-Good pilots can reduce LRM effectiveness when LRMs are fired at them unexpectedly as they make for cover. Torso twist and arms up while moving perpendicular to the launch... to minimize and spread out damage.
-Good pilots proactively reduce LRM effectiveness when they are attacking, by attacking from cover that blocks LRMs.

-Good LRM use against a GOOD pilot requires that you move to a good firing position without putting yourself at risk.
-Good LRM pilots don't need to do anything special against BAD pilots who will do things like walk backwards in the open when fired on by LRMs.... and take the full salvo to the chest. (this is where the Fallacy of "LRMs are overpowered" comes from)

If you are bad at avodiing LRMs, get a Radar Deprivation module. That is just as easy mode as a bad player with LRMs.

[Mercules]

Moomtazz, on 18 September 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Awesome this dude just rolls lockons 24/7. Can't expect him to be objective. Boring way to play but hey if it's all you can do then go for it.

Who is, "this dude"?

[Moomtazz]

There is no skill involved with hitting R, moving the crosshair in the general area of the enemy, and mashing fire.

[Metus regem]

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

So... Show of hands.

How many people using streaks bring a BAP as it is immediately useful and needed to make their Streaks work? Oh... that many. Okay I figured it would be quite a few.

How many people who are not using streaks or designated spotters for LRMs being a BAP since it's superfluous and takes up weight and tonnage? Um... I see we have one guy in the back there... anyone else?

I have a CAP (Clan Active Probe) on all of my mechs that have the room to cary one, even if all she's got are direct fire weapons...

As for LRM's being an issue, if I get smoked by them, then I did something wrong, I usually die when I get caught in the cross fire between Dire Wolves... as I'm out hunting ECM and AMS mechs.

[Zypher]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 04:43 AM, said:

I decided it wasn't fair to test an LRM10 against an AC20.

AC10 stats
Time 02:58:12(10,692 seconds)
Damage 4,041
DPS over 3 hours 0.377

Over 2 times the DpS as a LRM10.

Sorry man, you can't post stats like that an expect anyone to take it that seriously. There are plenty of other stats in the game that are not even tracked as far as I know, like how often you are firing your weapon in a match.

We are all aware the most LRM boats fire continuously because the nature of indirect fire / ammo. Even without doing that much damage they are a continual annoyance. AC/10s play peekaboo most games, of a full 15 minute game you might spend a total of 30 seconds firing them.

[Zyllos]

Honestly, LRMs need to act exactly like SSRMs, target bones in swarms of 5 LRMs each (basically each swarm acts exactly like a LRM/5 that has the same spread patterns but targets a random bone).

But maybe that is just me...

Edited by Zyllos, 18 September 2014 - 12:19 PM.

[Mercules]

Zyllos, on 18 September 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Honestly, LRMs need to act exactly like SSRMs, target bones in swarms of 5 LRMs each (basically each swarm acts exactly like an LRM/5 that has the same spread patterns but targets a random bone).

But maybe that is just me...

I assure you that if LRMs follow the SSRM mechanics you will be QQing twice as loud. Streaks do not require you to hold that lock for them to hit once they are locked and fired. LRMs do. Imagine if they didn't and just followed you around no matter what. It wouldn't matter if they hit random parts because instead of 30-40% hitting you it would be 70-80% hitting you.

[Metus regem]

Zyllos, on 18 September 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:

Honestly, LRMs need to act exactly like SSRMs, target bones in swarms of 5 LRMs each (basically each swarm acts exactly like a LRM/5 that has the same spread patterns but targets a random bone).

But maybe that is just me...

Kind of like how it worked in TT?

Roll to hit, I hit....

Roll to see how many missiles hit..... I got 12 out of 20 hits.

Roll to see where the first 5 hit.... Roll to see where the second 5 hit, roll for where the last two hit...

[Zyllos]

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 12:22 PM, said:

I assure you that if LRMs follow the SSRM mechanics you will be QQing twice as loud. Streaks do not require you to hold that lock for them to hit once they are locked and fired. LRMs do. Imagine if they didn't and just followed you around no matter what. It wouldn't matter if they hit random parts because instead of 30-40% hitting you it would be 70-80% hitting you.

Not sure what your talking about.

The locking mechanics stays the same (though I would want to change it also).

[Lyoto Machida]

Blue doqyn, on 18 September 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Seriously, if every mech on a team had AMS, just one with 1 ton of ammo, LRMs would be 100% useless unless you had a Stalker with 4 LRM20s and was alpha-ing. LRMs have the most counters in the game and can be shut down in the easiest ways possible, plus they are the most team dependent weapon system in the game.

No Stalker has more than 52 tubes so it wouldn't be an 80 shot alpha of missiles anyways. Most are in the 30 tube count range. I get that streaming LRMs causes havoc on the receiving end but I'd rather have a higher tube count/missile alpha. My opinion, of course.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 11:32 AM, said:

So... Show of hands.

How many people using streaks bring a BAP as it is immediately useful and needed to make their Streaks work? Oh... that many. Okay I figured it would be quite a few.

How many people who are not using streaks or designated spotters for LRMs being a BAP since it's superfluous and takes up weight and tonnage? Um... I see we have one guy in the back there... anyone else?


engagement range for LRMs 180 to 1000
engagement range for Streaks 0-270 or 0-360

So... LRM doesn't even make it to it's minimum range in 1 second. Even at it's maximum range a Streak will hit the mech within 2 seconds and at anything under 200 it hits you basically, "Fired-BAM!" Streaks do NOT miss. They only don't hit if something comes between the mech and the missile or it moves out of range. Doesn't matter if the mech jumps, twists, turns, runs, walks, does the worm, stands on it's tip-toes, doubles over in exhaustion. Streaks will hit it EVEN IF I LOSE LOCK AFTER FIRING! LRMs travel so far, and so slow that it is easy to break LoS, get into ECM, draw them over multiple AMS systems, angle them into terrain.


Except Once fired I can look away from my target and spread damage while using Streaks. I can not do that and have my LRMs still track. SRMs also cover the majority of their available range in less than a second. At no point can an IS LRM hit it's target in a second and do damage. Big difference.




Uh, huh... you keep telling yourself LRMs are superior to SSRMs.
C-LRM 15 6 6,810 2,467 36.23% 00:43:00 2,446

C-LRM 20 7 4,860 1,915 39.40% 00:30:25 1,725

C-STREAK SRM 4 12 1,120 884 78.93% 00:57:13 1,756

C-STREAK SRM 6 30 6,426 4,639 72.19% 02:32:08 9,465
I don't use LRMs much and I tend to use Streak SRMs as a deterrent to Lights, but in the matches I have used the two systems(I haven't used IS LRMs recent enough to have valid data on it) you will notice a particular thing. The stats track each individual missile. So I've fired less SSRM 6 missiles than I have LRM15. I've just about doubled the number of missiles hitting and SSRMs do 2 damage per missile hit instead of 1.1. I've fired roughly the same amount of missiles, hit with almost twice as many SSRMs and do almost twice the damage with SSRMs. Looks like SSRMs are more efficient than LRMs and more effective at doing damage. Imagine if that almost 4x the amount of damage I am dealing with LRMs went to the CT. THAT is why they got nerfed.

Let it go...he's either trolling or has an obvious anti-LRM bias.

Moomtazz, on 18 September 2014 - 11:46 AM, said:

Awesome this dude just rolls lockons 24/7. Can't expect him to be objective. Boring way to play but hey if it's all you can do then go for it.

Mercules, on 18 September 2014 - 11:56 AM, said:

Who is, "this dude"?

You...the guy that has used locking weapons all of 5 hours of gameplay.

Moomtazz, on 18 September 2014 - 11:57 AM, said:

There is no skill involved with hitting R, moving the crosshair in the general area of the enemy, and mashing fire.

Exactly...that's why you're gonna produce a screenshot of your 50%+ LRM accuracy, right?

Trolls gonna troll.