353 replies to this topic

[Dolph Hoskins]

Well one thing is certain about this or any other LRM scenario. Someone had to stick their neck out to get the result. Either the spotter that got the initial locks, or the guy who stepped over the wrong ridge at the wrong time.

In either case someone got the axe, mission accomplished. That or there was a UAV involved which is also gg.

Not seeing the issue.

Edited by The Ripper13, 17 September 2014 - 07:00 AM.

[Ovion]

People who moan about LRMs I find, either have never used them, or stand out in the open waiting to die.

There's Horizontal and Vertical cover - use it.

If you stand in a field, you're as likely to get AC'd / PPC'd / Gauss'd / Lasered as you are LRM'd - difference is, with LRMs you get an incoming fire warning, or ECM cover, or AMS.

And the other things, everything that ISN'T LRM's, will do it for a fraction of the weight, in a fraction of the time.

Most AC's will only need 0.5 to 1.5 tons of ammo to kill any mech (Locust lower, Atlas upper), including misses, which it will burn through fairly quickly.
LRMs will need 1 to 8 tons of ammo for the same result.

The OP is complaining that he walked infront of the enemy team, and got murdered by 3+ mechs flinging 3-4T of ammo at him (if he was at full armour to begin with).

[Mcgral18]

Lemming211, on 17 September 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

You can twist all you want, with enough arc it's not facetanking. It's death from above with the CT heavily favored for "targeting". In OP's case he was behind a large wall, not taking direct fire. How far to you have to torso twist before you're not getting hit on top? Your other option is rear, again with the center favored, you're dead sooner.

They'll hit your arms and STs if you twist them towards the direction LRMs are coming from.

They never drop vertical, it's always at an angle. Further they are, higher the angle.

[PhoenixFire55]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:22 AM, said:

i have not seen 95% and I do challenge your assertion. I figure it is more likely 50-60 % which may or may not be to high
I am not opposed to being hit with that many missiles when I am begging to be bombed out of existence.

Go to training grounds, stand right in front of a mech and LRM it. Commando, Jenner, Centurion, Cataphract, Awesome, Atlas, they all take it into CT with like 90-95% chance. LRMs are broken, they need Streak mechanics.

[Mcgral18]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 September 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Go to training grounds, stand right in front of a mech and LRM it. Commando, Jenner, Centurion, Cataphract, Awesome, Atlas, they all take it into CT with like 90-95% chance. LRMs are broken, they need Streak mechanics.

Now go to the side, and do the same thing. It all hits the arm and ST.

Guess what happens when you fire an AC into the front of a mech?

[Mercules]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 September 2014 - 07:07 AM, said:

Go to training grounds, stand right in front of a mech and LRM it. Commando, Jenner, Centurion, Cataphract, Awesome, Atlas, they all take it into CT with like 90-95% chance. LRMs are broken, they need Streak mechanics.

So... non moving mechs that are not twisting their torso get hit in the CT? Hmmmmmm....

[PhoenixFire55]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

Not all missiles hit all the time. i would wager the craptastic damage of LRMs is due to 3-5 missiles missing from the LRM10 (I'd like to see the numbers PGI has)

No. Even if one missile out of LRM20 launcher hits it registers a hit into your stats, just like SRMs or LBXs or laser scratches. Craptastic is due to lost locks, ECMs, target ducking for cover and AMS.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

I don't shoot my AC20 outside of 250M I like the full on thump from my BFH.

Smart, but not always smart. Don't forget crits on AC20 as well. And it does crit often. LRMs don't crit.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

I can aim, I bring a mix cause I may not have LoS(assault jock remember) and a friendly could use some help while I am closing to have eyes on target.

That is a classical way to build your mechs, but not the best one or effective one. In the competitive environment you don't do it. Its either full brawler build or full sniper build or full LRM build.

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

I am liking this discussion Phoenix. No name calling, exchanging points. Its pretty cool.

Maturity is OP. Just like teamwork.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mcgral18, on 17 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Now go to the side, and do the same thing. It all hits the arm and ST.

My argument was exactly that. If you stand right IN FRONT of a mech 95% of missiles hit CT when they should spread all over like Streaks do.

Mcgral18, on 17 September 2014 - 07:09 AM, said:

Guess what happens when you fire an AC into the front of a mech?

AC hits where you aimed it. LRMs do not require aim. Streaks are well implemented (after a long period of being broken). LRMs aren't.

Mercules, on 17 September 2014 - 07:11 AM, said:

So... non moving mechs that are not twisting their torso get hit in the CT? Hmmmmmm....

Tell me, why LRMs should be different from Streaks in this regard? Or are you going to suggest that Streaks should hit CT with 95% chance as well? Again?

[Ovion]

You mean like Lasers, Autocannons, PPCs and Gauss Rifles don't?

I'm honestly confused by how much people complain about the heavier, spread damage weapon with the direct counters, that warns you when you're being shot by them and don't moan half as much about the lighter, direct fire weapons. O-o

I (and just about everyone else) pull higher damage with Ballistics, energy weapons and even SRMs, with less effort involved, than LRMs.

As much as I love my LRM boats, they're just harder to use and more fragile thanks to all the counters.
With my Laser / Ballistic boats, it's poitn and shoot, and be done with it.

[Ertur]

I Zeratul I, on 17 September 2014 - 04:19 AM, said:

.

It says you died from rageagainstthedyingofthelight.

I have seen him in game, before.

He runs a LRM boat that is a LRM80 or a LRM100. Or more.

I don't remember exactly how many LRM's his boat fires. But, it fires a lot.

It can destroy a mech with a few barrages.

If he locks onto you and has a clear shot, the damage will be significant.

Look again at the picture; he was damaged by LRM, LRM+Artemis, CLRM, and CLRM+Artemis so four LRM boats at least. There's also a CMLas hit, too, which means he may have been narced successfully.

[Spr1ggan]

Joseph Mallan, on 17 September 2014 - 06:55 AM, said:

Not all missiles hit all the time. i would wager the craptastic damage of LRMs is due to 3-5 missiles missing from the LRM10 (I'd like to see the numbers PGI has)

I don't shoot my AC20 outside of 250M I like the full on thump from my BFH.

I can aim, I bring a mix cause I may not have LoS(assault jock remember) and a friendly could use some help while I am closing to have eyes on target.

I am liking this discussion Phoenix. No name calling, exchanging points. Its pretty cool.

Not trying to come off dickish but you said in an earlier post that you hit with 55% of your AC/20 shots and don't fire it outside of 250m. That means you are missing 45% of your shots within 250m. Not exactly a great example of aiming.

I am pretty tired though so maybe i'm reading things wrong. Hell my AC/20 accuracy is 76.17% and I'm not happy with the percentage of shots I'm missing with it. Due to it being such a close range weapon.

Edited by McHarg, 17 September 2014 - 08:41 AM.

[Mcgral18]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 September 2014 - 08:03 AM, said:

My argument was exactly that. If you stand right IN FRONT of a mech 95% of missiles hit CT when they should spread all over like Streaks do.

Except they don't. Take an LRM20 and put it in a 1-4 tube launcher, fire at the Commando on Forest Colony, right at the spawn.

Watch 50% of the missiles MISS ENTIRELY, coming out of 2 tubes on the Awesome. They miss plenty, let alone "all hit the CT", they miss the mech entirely!


You need TAG+Artemis for most to hit the mech, and even then, you're still sandblasting 4 components at 200M.

[Spr1ggan]

Mcgral18, on 17 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Except they don't. Take an LRM20 and put it in a 1-4 tube launcher, fire at the Commando on Forest Colony, right at the spawn.

Watch 50% of the missiles MISS ENTIRELY, coming out of 2 tubes on the Awesome. They miss plenty, let alone "all hit the CT", they miss the mech entirely!


You need TAG+Artemis for most to hit the mech, and even then, you're still sandblasting 4 components at 200M.

Come on dude. You're talking about a commando. The cluster of lrms heading towards it is probably bigger and wider than the target so no wonder a lot will miss. Different story on bigger mechs. Especially when they are stationary.

[Project_Mercy]

A lot of this is a result of UAVs. In TT, you generally didn't have them. There were a few specialized mechs or vehicles that had them (or you had VTOLs), but you didn't have every single mech carrying around UAVS and Arty strikes. They mostly had aerospace for this, and wining air superiority in TT was a huge deal. You basically were a.) ALLOWED to use airstrikes and b.) denied any use of artillery on the other side, because the long tom convoy would be long dead before it setup.

Some light runs forward, pops a UAV, then half the other side starts unloading. If it's in solo queue and nobody realizes that stupid light rushing you is goign to pop a UAV and then drop an arty strike, then they mill about as the other side rains LRMS until the UAV expires. To some extent, if a UAV lasts to length, that side has won in solo queue.

I'd like to see what removal of UAVs for a bit did to the LURMageddon.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mcgral18, on 17 September 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Except they don't. Take an LRM20 and put it in a 1-4 tube launcher, fire at the Commando on Forest Colony, right at the spawn.

Watch 50% of the missiles MISS ENTIRELY, coming out of 2 tubes on the Awesome. They miss plenty, let alone "all hit the CT", they miss the mech entirely!


You need TAG+Artemis for most to hit the mech, and even then, you're still sandblasting 4 components at 200M.

Observe.

9 LRM5s to kill a Commando through CT. Arms and legs fully fresh, sides barely damaged. No TAG, no Narc. Thats 49.5 LRM damage to kill a mech with 40 points of CT.

Test 2.

5 LRM15s to kill same commando through CT. Some damage on arms and legs, but sides aren't even close to be opened still when CT goes down. Thats 82.5 damage most of which goes into CT.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 17 September 2014 - 10:11 AM.

[Mcgral18]

McHarg, on 17 September 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

Come on dude. You're talking about a commando. The cluster of lrms heading towards it is probably bigger and wider than the target so no wonder a lot will miss. Different story on bigger mechs. Especially when they are stationary.

A Commando is larger than an Atlas' CT, so it goes to say that they won't all hit the CT.

PhoenixFire55, on 17 September 2014 - 10:01 AM, said:

Observe.

9 LRM5s to kill a Commando through CT. Arms and legs fully fresh, sides barely damaged. No TAG, no Narc. Thats 49.5 LRM damage to kill a mech with 40 points of CT.

Test 2.

5 LRM15s to kill same commando through CT. Some damage on arms and legs, but sides aren't even close to be opened still when CT goes down. Thats 82.5 damage most of which goes into CT.

You're putting Artemis on that. This thread is whining about out of LoS CT coring; which isn't possible unless you have subLRM10+A+LoS+TAG.

Now, try that with non Artemis LRM20s, or even non Artemis LRM5s. Not sure how much of a difference it makes on the 5s.

[Spr1ggan]

Mcgral18, on 17 September 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

A Commando is larger than an Atlas' CT, so it goes to say that they won't all hit the CT.



You're putting Artemis on that. This thread is whining about out of LoS CT coring; which isn't possible unless you have subLRM10+A+LoS+TAG.

Now, try that with non Artemis LRM20s, or even non Artemis LRM5s. Not sure how much of a difference it makes on the 5s.

Not really dude. Remember all of the Atlas's head apart from the cockpit eye also counts as CT. So if it has lrms raining down on it hitting centre torso and it's dome, well that's quite a large surface area.

Edited by McHarg, 17 September 2014 - 10:17 AM.

[PhoenixFire55]

Mcgral18, on 17 September 2014 - 10:11 AM, said:

A Commando is larger than an Atlas' CT, so it goes to say that they won't all hit the CT.



You're putting Artemis on that. This thread is whining about out of LoS CT coring; which isn't possible unless you have subLRM10+A+LoS+TAG.

Now, try that with non Artemis LRM20s, or even non Artemis LRM5s. Not sure how much of a difference it makes on the 5s.

Why bother if nobody uses a non-Artemis LRMs anymore?
My point is same, Artemis or not, TAG or not, whatever. They should spread the damage more or less evenly across the mech when facing it. No matter what I did, I killed a mech through CT, the healthiest part, without even as much as opening sides or damaging any limbs. This isn't balance, this is bullsh!t. Don't forget we are talking about a fkn Commando here.

Edited by PhoenixFire55, 17 September 2014 - 10:25 AM.

[Dracol]

PhoenixFire55, on 17 September 2014 - 10:23 AM, said:

Why bother if nobody uses a non-Artemis LRMs anymore?
My point is same, Artemis or not, TAG or not, whatever. They should spread the damage more or less evenly across the mech when facing it. No matter what I did, I killed a mech through CT, the healthiest part, without even as much as opening sides or damaging any limbs. This isn't balance, this is bullsh!t. Don't forget we are talking about a fkn Commando here.

You pointed a weapon dead on at a stationary target. Any non-missile based weapon will do 100% damage to the CT. The very fact that not all LRMs are landing on the CT make it a less effective weapon then all others.... and you want it to be even less effective??

[Dracol]

Sorbic, on 17 September 2014 - 06:30 AM, said:

I love when I'm getting hit by LRMs but can't aim high (generally no DF arm weapons) enough to take out a UAV. Usually calls for someone else to do so go unanswered.

One little side benefit to using a mech with arm mounted weapons, all actuators, and no arm-lock engaged. Same limitations go towards fighting mechs on steep hillsides like Alpine.