963 replies to this topic

[Bishop Steiner]

Oogalook, on 17 October 2014 - 06:46 AM, said:

Greetings Mechwarriors.
Some of you may have seen my post foretelling and warning against the quirk system which has now been confirmed for the November 4th patch. In it I also gave some suggestions of how quirks could still embrace loadout customization.

The latest post on quirks is here


The plan we saw suggested in earlier posts (such as one of the Town Hall things) was a minor buff (10%) to all weapons of a family, say ballistics for the Hunchback. On top of this would stack a slightly better (15%) buff for the designated weapon, the AC20 in this case. This would allow other builds to flourish even while giving special emphasis on the “optimal” weapon. This idea has been totally discarded, and there is no stated reason for this change of heart.

This quirk system which is now suggested will bring each variant in line with a higher standard of firepower, but it will annihilate the very essence of Mechwarrior, which is to choose the weaponry to bring to the battlefield. The buff of 25% to multiple areas of one weapon's efficacy will basically make any other build inherently sub-par and will negate the benefit of the quirks, leaving it forever in dusty ignominy. *Though there are no actual negative buffs, within the chassis, you essentially give up 25% firepower by selecting a non-buffed weapon in a very real sense.*

The point of the quirk pass is to make less-used 'mechs useful again. The problem is that this quirk pass only benefits pilots on the condition that they give up their right to run whatever the hell they want. The implication is that they must give up freedom for power, and it's the maximum kick in the pants.

If I pack my Hunchie 4G with 2xAC5, it will in a very objective sense be weaker than one equipped as the devs have decided the 'mech should be.

Please back me on this. PGI, for the first time in a long while, has rustled the hell out of my jimmies. They need to spread the benefits of the quirk system to apply to multiple builds of the same 'mech in order to keep customization alive. Even if the devs just reduced the buff to a smaller margin (perhaps 15%?) other builds could be reasonably run. When you approach 20% increased firepower, the above effect of essentially enforced loadouts comes into play.

The idea with this post is to make enough noise to get PGI to reconsider their plan BEFORE it goes into place, only to be fixed a long way down the road. Please comment, if only to spout disagreement.

Actually they won't.

They will simply encourage people who want to minmax to use chassis that are already intended for said role to use those chassis, instead of generic, insert chassis here building.

It's actually a sensible way to encourage people to look at mechs like the HBK-4G, 4H and GI and instead of running the same exact generic minmaxxed build on all 3, actually maximizing the ones that suit your playstyle in their intended roles. (another good example being the AWS-9M vs the AWS-8Q, where you will see hotter and faster ERPPC vs slower but cooler PPCs)

But just as most people can't actually figure out how sized hardpoints would increase chassis diversity and viability, I don't expect most to grasp this, either.

[Tynan]

The thing I really don't get about everyone complaining about weapon specific quirks for variants...do you WANT every variant to function the same except for hardpoints? That was one of the weaker point of this game in general, I always though, that everything was basically a reskin save for hardpoints and weapon location mounting.

And I specifically don't get the hate on the HBK-4G changes. Yes, the AC-20 gets some specific buffs, but even without those you get the Hunch armor / structure buffs and the energy weapon buffs. I mean, what did you actually want? Just generic movement / armor / structure buffs? The thing gets bonuses for ANY energy weapon AND its RT. What alternate would you even suggest?

[Kensaisama]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

On the contrary, the Gridiron only makes the argument stronger.

"Want to put a Gauss Rifle in your Hunchback? Gotta buy the Hero version, foo'! Crack that wallet or go home!"

Is that the sort of message you want to be sending to your player base, if you were Piranha? Because it's totally not the message I'd want to be sending if I were Piranha.

Whether you have to crack your wallet or not, there is still a variant with a Gauss Rifle, the argument is invalid.

[1453 R]

Mercules, on 17 October 2014 - 11:04 AM, said:

Yep... Sucks that the Gridiron will probably get a Gauss boost and that a different HBK gets an AC/10 boost. I mean you have NO options for running a Hunchback with a different ballistic option.

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

On the contrary, the Gridiron only makes the argument stronger.

"Want to put a Gauss Rifle in your Hunchback? Gotta buy the Hero version, foo'! Crack that wallet or go home!"

Is that the sort of message you want to be sending to your player base, if you were Piranha? Because it's totally not the message I'd want to be sending if I were Piranha.

[CheeseyPeas]

cdlord, on 17 October 2014 - 10:59 AM, said:

It's not a "suggested" build. It's the variant's OFFICIAL build per lore. Go read a book. If you want to change your mech to get on the metawagon, then more power to you. Now, you'll have more competition and if that's not a good thing, then you are in the wrong game.

I think you should be playing TT if lore needs to be so rigid for you, not sure why you would want to play a Mechwarrior title full of customisation options if it bothers you that much. Oh and books are rumored to be awesome maybe I should try that sometime.

[Glythe]

Stefka Kerensky, on 17 October 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

This thread shows incredible posts....

There are a lot of tier 5 mechs that are going to received some bonus making them a little more viable AND there are people whining about it????? LOL

People are upset because these buffs to make them a little more viable don't address the issue at hand. Look at the Atlas 7-D buffs.

http://mwomercs.com/...30#entry3827030

Yea great job there..... the Atlas will totally go toe to toe with the Direwolf now.

/sigh.



I think what most of us wanted was to have our old and lame IS mechs be pretty much equal in terms of viability when compared to clan mechs. Instead they give us pathetic little nothing buffs. These quirks might be fine if we were going to fight 10 clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs but that isn't the case so this is basically a slap in the face.

Edited by Glythe, 17 October 2014 - 11:15 AM.

[Tynan]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

<snip>

So, you're getting buffs the the RT carrying the Gauss, you're getting buffs to any supplemental energy weapons, but you don't get the AC20 specific changes, so it's all terrible and no good at all.

Ok.

[Bishop Steiner]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 11:00 AM, said:

On the contrary, the Gridiron only makes the argument stronger.

"Want to put a Gauss Rifle in your Hunchback? Gotta buy the Hero version, foo'! Crack that wallet or go home!"

Is that the sort of message you want to be sending to your player base, if you were Piranha? Because it's totally not the message I'd want to be sending if I were Piranha.

If there was some sort of nerf for running the Gauss on the 4G, perhaps. There is not. You still get 58 frontal armor, or more, and an Internal Structure that will likely keep the Gauss from exploding til the very end, based on how the ac20 has become was more survivable in the current HBK quirk pass.

Will it be as maximized as the GI probably will be? Nope. But if people are going to cry about that, I dunno what to tell you.

[Mercules]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 11:12 AM, said:

.

Ehem... So if you don't want to open your wallet go find a variant medium that gets a bonus to Gauss. You complain about minor inconveniences. If it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo important to run a Gauss Rifle on a Hunchback you might have to buy a hero mech. Big deal. Right now if you wanted specific hardpoints on a Commando you would have to buy a hero mech. It's no different.

[Bishop Steiner]

Action Mac, on 17 October 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

I think you should be playing TT if lore needs to be so rigid for you, not sure why you would want to play a Mechwarrior title full of customisation options if it bothers you that much. Oh and books are rumored to be awesome maybe I should try that sometime.

Yes, because if you want to run an LB-10x, you HAVE to run it on an HBK. Oh wait...you still can. Or you can run it on another 50 tonner called the CN-9X and get a lot of bonuses for doing so, because the mech was designed and engineered around that weapon, whereas the Hunchback was not.

Just as one example.

Generic, across board weapon buffs or nerfs do NOTHING to increase or improve chassis and variant viability, or roles. Individual chassis being BETTER packing certain weapons, weapons that in most cases, the chassis was DESIGNED around, on the other hand, DOES do so, while also making a lot of sense, TT lore, or no.

Also, for the idiotic "go back and play TT" arguments? This game was always marketed as the Devs attempt to get things as close to the feel of TT as possible. So, maybe it's the people who don't care about lore that need to reboot their thinking about this game.

[Mercules]

Action Mac, on 17 October 2014 - 11:13 AM, said:

I think you should be playing TT if lore needs to be so rigid for you, not sure why you would want to play a Mechwarrior title full of customisation options if it bothers you that much. Oh and books are rumored to be awesome maybe I should try that sometime.

I think you should be playing Hawken if Battletech/Mechwarrior lore bothers you that much. I didn't buy a founders pack for "Generic Mechabattle Online."

[DocBach]

It should be a sigh of relief for all the players who complain c-bill earnings are terrible -- now you don't need to really put much money into your 'Mech if you want to enjoy its perks to the fullest.

[Bishop Steiner]

Mercules, on 17 October 2014 - 11:16 AM, said:

Ehem... So if you don't want to open your wallet go find a variant medium that gets a bonus to Gauss. You complain about minor inconveniences. If it is SOOOOOOOOOOOOOooooo important to run a Gauss Rifle on a Hunchback you might have to buy a hero mech. Big deal. Right now if you wanted specific hardpoints on a Commando you would have to buy a hero mech. It's no different.

Especially since it's a temporary one, as there simply were not many IS MEdiums in 3050 packing a Gauss rifle. Come 3055 and 3058, GR mech variants start to proliferate much more heavily.

Also, no one solution is 100% perfect and will please 100% of the customers. I do love how people QQ over something only being 95% of a good idea, so I guess they should do nothing at all, and we can just complain harder.

Oh wait, the usual suspects already are.

[Belorion]

I really don't understand what all the negativity is about here.

People were all behind this before. My bet is this is just a reaction to something new, and the negativity won't stick.

Relax and see how it all shakes out.

[VanillaG]

1453 R, on 17 October 2014 - 10:53 AM, said:

The new quirks system completely and entirely eliminates that sort of experimentation - the highest possible performance in any given chassis is blind-stupid obvious, and nothing else the 'Mech does will ever even remotely compare to what it can do by following the one single build outlined by its given quirks.

Some of us are protesting the narrow focus of the quirks because we like playing in the 'Mechlab/Smurfy as much as we do on the field and Piranha is telling us to stop doing that.

You are forgetting about the weapon modules. All these quirks are just hardwired weapon modules based on what comes stock with the mech. If you want to rip out the stock components and customize you still have the ability to similar bonuses, you just have to use weapon modules.

These quirks actually provide a downside to customization and promote variant based specialization. In the medium class if you want the best torso AC/20 carrier use the Hunchback instead of the Shadowhawk. If you want the the best arm AC/20 carrier use the Cent AH instead of the Blackjack. You can get close to the same quirk bonuses on the Shadowhawk/Blackjack but you need to use modules which cost money and you most likely will not have enough slots to get ALL of the bonuses and in the short term you just will not be able to get some of the quirks until they release similar modules.

[DocBach]

That said, I'd like to see some cool perks that highlight roles further, like for the Raven 3L for example -- how about something that increases its sensor range, or radar detection range? How about a perk that lets it use both a Beagle Active Probe and an ECM together to count as 2 for counter ECM? I think that'd be cool.

[Scratx]

Glythe, on 17 October 2014 - 11:14 AM, said:

People are upset because these buffs to make them a little more viable don't address the issue at hand. Look at the Atlas 7-D buffs.

http://mwomercs.com/...30#entry3827030

Yea great job there..... the Atlas will totally go toe to toe with the Direwolf now.

/sigh.



I think what most of us wanted was to have our old and lame IS mechs be pretty much equal in terms of viability when compared to clan mechs. Instead they give us pathetic little nothing buffs. These quirks might be fine if we were going to fight 10 clan mechs vs 12 IS mechs but that isn't the case so this is basically a slap in the face.

The quirks are more in trying to get every IS mech on more or less the same level. It also results in making them better against the Clans as a side effect. The Atlas' buffs aren't actually bad at all, but the Atlas wasn't a bad mech to start with either.

As is, the Atlas D should be able to tank a bit more on both side torsos and that AC20 will be extra-dangerous. Extra range on SRM6's isn't a bad thing either.

Just... you know, don't do against the Dire Wolf what didn't work against the Dire Wolf. You'd need Tier 5 level of quirkage to make THAT work.

[Tynan]

VanillaG, on 17 October 2014 - 11:23 AM, said:

You are forgetting about the weapon modules. All these quirks are just hardwired weapon modules based on what comes stock with the mech. If you want to rip out the stock components and customize you still have the ability to similar bonuses, you just have to use weapon modules.

These quirks actually provide a downside to customization and promote variant based specialization. In the medium class if you want the best torso AC/20 carrier use the Hunchback instead of the Shadowhawk. If you want the the best arm AC/20 carrier use the Cent AH instead of the Blackjack. You can get close to the same quirk bonuses on the Shadowhawk/Blackjack but you need to use modules which cost money and you most likely will not have enough slots to get ALL of the bonuses and in the short term you just will not be able to get some of the quirks until they release similar modules.

The thing about this is there's still significant room for argument here--the two "underpowered" mechs very notably have jumpjets, which in many cases is still more of an advantage than a minor buff to the weapon when popping out to use an AC-20. What this does mean, though, is that the flatlanders might be a bit more dangerous. Overall, that's a good thing, I think.

[AlmightyAeng]

DocBach, on 17 October 2014 - 11:24 AM, said:

That said, I'd like to see some cool perks that highlight roles further, like for the Raven 3L for example -- how about something that increases its sensor range, or radar detection range? How about a perk that lets it use both a Beagle Active Probe and an ECM together to count as 2 for counter ECM? I think that'd be cool.

Personally I can't wait to see what the new Atlas quirks are...the upcoming S variant should have the sexiest hardpoints of any available, weaponwise. Yes...discounting ECM on the DDC.

[Abisha]

Belorion, on 17 October 2014 - 11:22 AM, said:

I really don't understand what all the negativity is about here.

People were all behind this before. My bet is this is just a reaction to something new, and the negativity won't stick.

Relax and see how it all shakes out.

people are not negative if they explained it more.
for first time i saw it also thought ALL mechs get quirks but that's obvious not the case.