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Proposed Quirks Will Kill Customization *happily Closed- That Got Nasty*


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#621 Quicksilver Aberration

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 09:38 AM

View PostMercules, on 19 October 2014 - 06:14 AM, said:


As I have stated in this thread before. I believe PGI's hands are tied on the generic weapon buffs. This issue is they can't give them a big enough percentage to bring them inline without also opening the doors to us finding a broken combination.It also doesn't encourage us to try out the different weapons, does it. Right now an LBX 10 on a Centurion is looking a bit interesting, but it if was just a generic AC buff we would probably see them all mounted with either AC/5s or UAC/5s. So they went the route of specific weapons with bigger buffs.

That has more to do with weapon balance period than the weapon quirks themselves, thus why specific weapon buffs are going to be just as borked at some point anyway.
It also causes a particular issue, rather than buffing the LBX10 like they should because the weapon simply isn't as effective as other weapons, they will contend that the LBX10 is only meant to be used on mechs that have a quirk aimed at it and it will ONLY get used by mechs that have ridiculous quirks aimed at it like the CN9-D.

#622 Mothykins

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 10:16 AM

View PostMercules, on 19 October 2014 - 06:18 AM, said:


Take a look at some of them. They might specify a particular weapon but often also have buffs for the secondary that are more general allowing some build freedom. HBK-4G with AC/20 and then the energy weapons you are most comfortable using like a single ERLL, multiple Mediums, Multiple SPLs. Either way it is still better off than it would have been before the quirks and is still using all it's quirks.

I invite you to look at the Hunchback 4H, or, as I like to call it, the Medium Laser and AC10 Mech. What generic buffs where you talking about, again?

Now, see, if that was more consistent, (having a few generic weapon buffs) then maybe. Maybe. As it is, it's all rather "Whatever we felt like" and seems to be handing some chassis the Shaft. "You have a 4H? these are your two weapons." You don't take those, and a 4G with some cheesy all energy 3 Machine gun build will roll you. Seems good, right?

Part of the issue with the quirks is that we're already seeing some issues with the "Intended role" flavor being so heavy handed that it forces them into configurations that really... Just don't work well compared to other variants in the chassis group. The 4H is stuck with the AC10 and Medium lasers. The 4G can strap on dual ERLL and poke at you from 1701 meters back with the ERLL mod strapped on (If they add straight. If they add sequentially... more than that); Screw the ac20, take a Gauss despite those buffs, because you have RANGE boy; you're still outdoing that 4H every step of the way. Hell, take ERPPCs, screw the big gun entirely. 2041m Range on those bad boys. That's an AC20 at 2km away - At the speed of an AC10. Do you understand how unbalanced these quirks are yet?

Meanwhile, the 4H has two weapons options for those buffs. AC10. Medium Laser. Whoo. I:

#623 Mercules

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 12:30 PM

View PostCavale, on 19 October 2014 - 10:16 AM, said:

I invite you to look at the Hunchback 4H, or, as I like to call it, the Medium Laser and AC10 Mech. What generic buffs where you talking about, again?

Now, see, if that was more consistent, (having a few generic weapon buffs) then maybe. Maybe. As it is, it's all rather "Whatever we felt like" and seems to be handing some chassis the Shaft. "You have a 4H? these are your two weapons." You don't take those, and a 4G with some cheesy all energy 3 Machine gun build will roll you. Seems good, right?

Part of the issue with the quirks is that we're already seeing some issues with the "Intended role" flavor being so heavy handed that it forces them into configurations that really... Just don't work well compared to other variants in the chassis group. The 4H is stuck with the AC10 and Medium lasers. The 4G can strap on dual ERLL and poke at you from 1701 meters back with the ERLL mod strapped on (If they add straight. If they add sequentially... more than that); Screw the ac20, take a Gauss despite those buffs, because you have RANGE boy; you're still outdoing that 4H every step of the way. Hell, take ERPPCs, screw the big gun entirely. 2041m Range on those bad boys. That's an AC20 at 2km away - At the speed of an AC10. Do you understand how unbalanced these quirks are yet?

Meanwhile, the 4H has two weapons options for those buffs. AC10. Medium Laser. Whoo. I:


I can't say I disagree with you about that last part. I do like AC/10s despite some people considering them inferior. Medium lasers are the workhorse laser you find them on more than half the mechs out there for a reason so having a boost for them is decent. I think the 4H should probably be moved over to a more generic buff than it is on the energy side of things, but I also realize this is a first pass and PGI will be coming back and reviewing it and until I see it in practice I am going to reserve judgement.

Don't worry, I see issues with the system, but I also think it will help us get some unused variants on the field and I can't see that as a bad thing ESPECIALLY when I also get a reason to run them somewhat closer to a stock loadout or what the Chassis was designed to do in Lore.

Let's play it and see if those issues really are issues and if my more positive outlook even comes close to happening or if we just end up with Jaggers, Shadowhawks, Stalkers, DDCs, Jenners, Firestarters, and Ravens on the field again.

#624 Pjwned

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 02:09 PM

I think I understand the concern, which seems to be that weapon specific quirks will lead to more limited builds, and I do kind of agree, but I also don't think it will "kill customization" really. I do wish the quirks were a bit more generalized though, it's kind of lame seeing a really awesome quirk and then you see it's for a weapon that you don't like using or for a weapon that won't fit in one of your favorite builds.

Let's go with a small example here, the JR7-D will have a quirk to increase SRM4 range by 10%, which is actually kind of nice since I've often wanted more SRM range in my Jenner-D, but what if I wanted to load up a couple SRM2 launchers or 1 SRM6 launcher instead? I don't think it's as big of a deal as OP seems to think it is but it understandably does lead to some concerns about perfectly valid builds getting the shaft because of being passed over by quirks that are too limited.

#625 Brody319

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 02:13 PM

Customization is mostly dead anyway. These quirks just favor specific builds, builds people probably run anyway if they want their mechs to do good, really all its doing is giving less experienced people a clue as to what a chassis should be running. no more hunchies with ac2s in the hunch and a bunch of medium lasers.

Makes IS more deadly because the newbs arent putting bad weapons into a mech and trying it out in clan warfare.

#626 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 02:20 PM

View PostBrody319, on 19 October 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

Customization is mostly dead anyway. These quirks just favor specific builds, builds people probably run anyway if they want their mechs to do good, really all its doing is giving less experienced people a clue as to what a chassis should be running. no more hunchies with ac2s in the hunch and a bunch of medium lasers.

Makes IS more deadly because the newbs aren't putting bad weapons into a mech and trying it out in clan warfare.

actually some do embrace a more "competitive" set, like SRMs on the Centy, but a lot are simply guiding them closer to Stock.

#627 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 02:25 PM

View PostMercules, on 19 October 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:


I can't say I disagree with you about that last part. I do like AC/10s despite some people considering them inferior. Medium lasers are the workhorse laser you find them on more than half the mechs out there for a reason so having a boost for them is decent. I think the 4H should probably be moved over to a more generic buff than it is on the energy side of things, but I also realize this is a first pass and PGI will be coming back and reviewing it and until I see it in practice I am going to reserve judgement.

Don't worry, I see issues with the system, but I also think it will help us get some unused variants on the field and I can't see that as a bad thing ESPECIALLY when I also get a reason to run them somewhat closer to a stock loadout or what the Chassis was designed to do in Lore.

Let's play it and see if those issues really are issues and if my more positive outlook even comes close to happening or if we just end up with Jaggers, Shadowhawks, Stalkers, DDCs, Jenners, Firestarters, and Ravens on the field again.

Yeah. Personally, for the multi weapon buff MEchs, I would prefer a more "focused" primary weapon buff, like the AC20 on the 4G, ac10 on the 4H and the lb-10x on the CN9-D, but would like more generic secondary systems buffs, more akin to the 4Gs "lasers" buff, than specifically Medium Lasers. Mind you, I think the 4P need as it's primary to be Medium Lasers, but maybe have generic Laser or even Energy as a secondary weapon.

So yes, like you, I can agree they are not across the board perfect, but what I wish the "other team" would get is we are simply not getting up in arms over the first pass. But that also, it will never be all things to all people. The very quirks they may wish emphasized may be the ones that would have US pissed off.

So what it appears PGI has to try is the "greater good" mentality. Only time will tell if they got it right, or what will need adjustment.

#628 VanillaG

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 02:32 PM

View PostGlythe, on 19 October 2014 - 05:01 AM, said:


The quirks they are giving the tier 3-5 mechs are not good enough to make them function like tier 1 mechs. Some of the tier 5 might go to tier 3 and overall most of them will get slightly better. But most of them won't come close to T1 because they lack some critical feature. Considering most of the time you just see tier 1-2 with the occasional 3 it really won't change much.

Also consider that the Tier 1 guys are not stuck using a specific build like all the guys who are ONLY better using their preferred tweaks. That is another problem with the system.

The goal is not to level the playing field but to reduce the gaps between the tiers. There will always be tiers but hopefully these quirks will lead to varied drop decks that take the quirks into account.

#629 Davegt27

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 04:28 PM

Your plans are to complicated

Let me help you guys out

Lights get 2 weapons

Mediums get 3

Heavy mechs get 4 weapons

Assaults Mechs get 5 weapons

No LRM's and no SRM's

:D

Edited by Davegt27, 20 October 2014 - 09:53 AM.


#630 Nightmare1

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 04:33 PM

Frankly, I like the quirk proposals. I actually have a reason to put an AC/10 on my HBK-4H now instead of the AC/20. I'll give it a whirl to see what happens and, if I don't like it, then I'll go back to the AC/20. There aren't any negative quirks that will punish me for not using the preferred load-out, so why is this a bad thing?

To put it clearly, the quirk system will provide benefits for outfitting your Mechs in certain styles, but will not force you to outfit only in said styles. You can still customize however you want, you just might not get the weapon-specific quirks. You will still get the general quirks like armor, structure, and weapon type (beam, ballistic, missile).

So, overall, this is a very good thing.

#631 Bishop Steiner

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 06:49 PM

View PostDavegt27, on 19 October 2014 - 04:28 PM, said:

Your plans are to complicated

Let me help you kids out

Lights get 2 weapons

Mediums get 3

Heavy mechs get 4 weapons

Assaults Mechs get 5 weapons

No LRM's and no SRM's

:D

yes, because this addresses the chassis viability discrepancies beautifully.............

#632 Metus regem

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 06:56 PM

View PostBishop Steiner, on 19 October 2014 - 02:20 PM, said:

actually some do embrace a more "competitive" set, like SRMs on the Centy, but a lot are simply guiding them closer to Stock.


I like the challenge of stock mechs more than tweaked ones... Then again, I'm crazy that way...

#633 Rhaegor

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 07:12 PM

View PostPjwned, on 19 October 2014 - 02:09 PM, said:

I think I understand the concern, which seems to be that weapon specific quirks will lead to more limited builds, and I do kind of agree, but I also don't think it will "kill customization" really. I do wish the quirks were a bit more generalized though, it's kind of lame seeing a really awesome quirk and then you see it's for a weapon that you don't like using or for a weapon that won't fit in one of your favorite builds.

Let's go with a small example here, the JR7-D will have a quirk to increase SRM4 range by 10%, which is actually kind of nice since I've often wanted more SRM range in my Jenner-D, but what if I wanted to load up a couple SRM2 launchers or 1 SRM6 launcher instead? I don't think it's as big of a deal as OP seems to think it is but it understandably does lead to some concerns about perfectly valid builds getting the shaft because of being passed over by quirks that are too limited.


Your SRM2 will be just as good as before. Rock on with your badself and your SRM2s.

#634 Alexander MacTaggart

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 07:45 PM

View PostMetus regem, on 19 October 2014 - 06:56 PM, said:

I like the challenge of stock mechs more than tweaked ones... Then again, I'm crazy that way...


I like my mechs 'Super Stock'.

- Stock engine (200 on Hunchbacks, 260 on Catapults, etc) STD if at all possible
- Stock weapon loadout (I will streamline down into 3 fire groups as a concession to my two-button-plus-wheel mouse)
- Apply upgrades (DHS, Endo usually), additional utility (AMS/ECM/BAP), max armor if possible

I've been running an HBK-4G that is actually doing decently in the solo queue. Then again I'm fairly new so I guess my ELO is low, but even for being 'slow' it's still fast enough, I just can't go charging around corners willy-nilly.

So I do wish the CN9-D quirks were for LRM10s instead of SRM4s, since that's the stock build. But I'll manage.

I also wish we knew what the Shadowhawk variants' quirks will be, since the sale is coming up and all. Glancing at them in Smurphy they seem pretty interchangeable hardpoint-wise in most cases.

Edit: And for everyone saying that they're somehow going to be 'nerfed' with quirks incoming, here's something to consider:

Timmy has $10
Johnny has $5
Ricky has $2

If I give Johnny $3 and Ricky $5, does Timmy now have less than his starting $10? Does Johnny or Ricky now have more money than Timmy?

Edited by Alexander MacTaggart, 19 October 2014 - 07:50 PM.


#635 Metus regem

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 09:03 PM

View PostAlexander MacTaggart, on 19 October 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

Mk
I like my mechs 'Super Stock'.

- Stock engine (200 on Hunchbacks, 260 on Catapults, etc) STD if at all possible
- Stock weapon loadout (I will streamline down into 3 fire groups as a concession to my two-button-plus-wheel mouse)
- Apply upgrades (DHS, Endo usually), additional utility (AMS/ECM/BAP), max armor if possible

I've been running an HBK-4G that is actually doing decently in the solo queue. Then again I'm fairly new so I guess my ELO is low, but even for being 'slow' it's still fast enough, I just can't go charging around corners willy-nilly.

So I do wish the CN9-D quirks were for LRM10s instead of SRM4s, since that's the stock build. But I'll manage.

I also wish we knew what the Shadowhawk variants' quirks will be, since the sale is coming up and all. Glancing at them in Smurphy they seem pretty interchangeable hardpoint-wise in most cases.

Edit: And for everyone saying that they're somehow going to be 'nerfed' with quirks incoming, here's something to consider:

Timmy has $10
Johnny has $5
Ricky has $2

If I give Johnny $3 and Ricky $5, does Timmy now have less than his starting $10? Does Johnny or Ricky now have more money than Timmy?


I'd say they are even between the lot if Ricky and johnny team up...

Being a clan purist, and feeling very odd about getting a couple of IS mechs in my hanger soon, King Crab and rewards Atlas, I think if I were to be an IS pilot, I'd drive an Awesome, and leave it with the single heat sinks and standard PPC's...

Hell my War Hawks run with the Alt. C config, so two ERPPC and two LPL... Flamer and all. Never use the flamer on it, but it is there.

#636 Pjwned

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 09:05 PM

View PostRhaegor, on 19 October 2014 - 07:12 PM, said:


Your SRM2 will be just as good as before. Rock on with your badself and your SRM2s.


I realize it's not the greatest example, especially because I could just use 1 SRM4 launcher instead if I really wanted that range buff, but it's still an example of feeling like you might be pigeonholed into a certain build when a less specific quirk might be more appropriate for people that run slightly unusual builds.

Specific quirks are obviously not a nerf but it feels crappy missing out on something useful just because it doesn't fit your exact build, and while I realize not every single mech should have quirks that are almost universally good for each basic weapon type, it does feel like in some cases PGI could try a little harder to make the quirks more broad.

Edited by Pjwned, 19 October 2014 - 09:07 PM.


#637 Alexander MacTaggart

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Posted 19 October 2014 - 09:18 PM

View PostPjwned, on 19 October 2014 - 09:05 PM, said:


I realize it's not the greatest example, especially because I could just use 1 SRM4 launcher instead if I really wanted that range buff, but it's still an example of feeling like you might be pigeonholed into a certain build when a less specific quirk might be more appropriate for people that run slightly unusual builds.

Specific quirks are obviously not a nerf but it feels crappy missing out on something useful just because it doesn't fit your exact build, and while I realize not every single mech should have quirks that are almost universally good for each basic weapon type, it does feel like in some cases PGI could try a little harder to make the quirks more broad.


Here's the thing though: If those quirks were all general ("+X% Energy Weapon Range" and similar) or even if they were a general/specific stacking, how is PGI to balance them across 100+ variants without making every variant a big generic blob with the same quirks? It wouldn't be very different than how it is now, you would just look at the variants that got a ballistics quirk, then use the one that's heaviest/has the best hitboxes for your AC20/Gauss mech, and ignore all the other ones.

Just like how the Shadowhawk is an empirically better AC20 platform than the Hunchback, right now.

With specific quirks instead, PGI can make them larger, noticable buffs and since they're more specific they can more easily distinguish variants. Does this mean we're likely to see less build diversity within a specific variant? Probably. But the other side of that coin is that (if done right) it will result in seeing more variants being played, ultimately INCREASING build diversity.

The idea is that instead of simply choosing the 'best' mech and loading up whatever preferred guns you want on it, instead you will think to yourself "Hey I like X type of weapons, which chassis/variant takes advantage of those?"

With that sort of system in place, now there is a reason to use an HBK-4G instead of a Shadowhawk variant if you want an AC20 - because the 4G is better at leveraging it. Now if you want AC5s then the Shadowhawk is likely to get buffs to that, or you can move up 5 tons and play a Dragon that gets 50% faster cooldown on them.

The idea is to get more types of mechs actually being played, instead of the same half-dozen 'meta-approved' ones constantly. There are other ways to do that, but people don't seem open to the idea of sized hardpoints or removing customization entirely. The proposed quirks system (no nerf, just buffs if you choose to build to take advantage of them) strikes me as a decent enough compromise between "I should be able to do anything I want!" (you can) and "This is how Mech A is supposed to be played" (you don't have to, but you get a bonus for doing it).

#638 Glythe

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 08:06 AM

View PostAlexander MacTaggart, on 19 October 2014 - 07:45 PM, said:

Edit: And for everyone saying that they're somehow going to be 'nerfed' with quirks incoming, here's something to consider:

Timmy has $10
Johnny has $5
Ricky has $2

If I give Johnny $3 and Ricky $5, does Timmy now have less than his starting $10? Does Johnny or Ricky now have more money than Timmy?


What you've done is water down the market share of T; he starts with 10/15 and you reduce his holdings down to 10/25.

But that's not really a fair analogy.

What you really have is more like this.

T,R and J have varying degrees of wealth (read as their mechs being unequal). They are going to gamble for 3 hours in a penny casino and see who has the best results.

T has the most wealth and he has no restrictions placed upon where he has to gamble his money.

J has 5$ and wants to bet that on a horse. You give him 3$ with an underlying agreement that now he has to bet on blackjack. This is great for J because he really likes Blackjack but didn't have enough money for the table minimum.

R has 2$ and wants to play poker (but he would need 10$ to play poker). You give him 5$ with the underlying agreement that he will spend all his money on the slot machines. R really doesn't want to play the slot machines but he does so reluctantly anyway because you gave him more than double what he started with to gamble.

Let's stop back with T and look where he decided to gamble. He went with the most lucrative game in the casino and decided to bet on craps. He's betting against the shooter on hard rolls and laying it on thick on the tough rolls.

Who out of our three gamblers stands to make the most money? The answer is T. Not only does he start with the most money he is free to play whatever game he wants. He is free to play the game that has the most favorable odds (read as not forced to use stock load outs or arbitrarily decided buffs).

This is a closer representation of the current quirk list in MWO.

Edited by Glythe, 20 October 2014 - 08:08 AM.


#639 Alexander MacTaggart

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 08:12 AM

View PostGlythe, on 20 October 2014 - 08:06 AM, said:


What you've done is water down the market share of T; he starts with 10/15 and you reduce his holdings down to 10/25.


No, T's $10 (his Timber Wolf) is still worth the same (the Timber Wolf is still top tier) even if J's Awesome got a bit better and R's Blackjack got a lot better.

The people playing the top-tier meta-chassis builds don't lose anything with the quirk pass, because the only thing quirks are doing is making worse, less-played chassis better. And unless you're going to argue that the HBK-4G or Atlas-S or whatever quirks are going to make those mechs 'better' than a Timber Wolf or Dire Wolf or Stormcrow (and I really don't see the argument for that), then the meta-builds will continue to be the best ones - but we may be seeing more of the other 80% of variants that nobody seriously plays.

More mech variety is a good thing, by the way.

#640 KraftySOT

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Posted 20 October 2014 - 08:27 AM

If your build was bad. It will still be bad.

If your build was good it will still be good.

If your bored to tears with MWO seeing the same 5 mechs on the field...Quirks will possibly convince you to play something different (like the laser vomit Awesome that was showcased)

Thats it.

If you were really that concerned with the Meta before hand, that you only do "whats best" instead of "what you like" then you didnt have a bad build...you had a meta build (or youre talking out of your ********) and nothing changes, other than there being possibly a few more attractive chassis for some new Meta builds.

Its not like all of a sudden you went from a bunch of small pulses and machine guns and an LRM20, and now with Quirks youre going to go OH, this build was terrible because it doesnt measure up anymore....considering it never measured up in the first place.

If you waited until now to get 'in the know'....well...thats your own fault.





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