165 replies to this topic

[Jacob Side]

Really force you to work as a group and to get into the fight. Over all loving it.

66,000 Cbill low and 250,000 Cbill high last night on wins.

Edited by Jacob Side, 22 October 2014 - 03:53 AM.

[Hoax415]

First impression is that you are trying to do some good things but the numbers are completely broken.

Went from rarely seeing a game under 90k (win or loss) to seeing them even for many solid contribution winning rounds. I haven't even bothered to delve deeply into why or what is going on because it feels so off that I had assumed tweaks were coming.

PGI, you need to take a good hard look at how earnings have shifted for losses and average winning rounds where you didn't carry the whole team. How much new players are making. How much bad players in solo queue are making. It seems likely you just made the new player experience even worse, which is probably not the intention of all this.

If the goal was to take some money away from the people who die in the first 5 minutes of a match doing nothing and redistribute that money to the guys who actually are carrying the team. Cool.

If the goal was to make people who deserved more money for their work in mechs that rarely will do huge damage or get tons of kills. Great idea, much needed.

But right now the execution seems very poor.

Edited by Hoax415, 22 October 2014 - 03:34 AM.

[Chrithu]

I like the new system. It definetely is a huge step in the right direction.

But at the same time I agree that it's biggest flaws are LRM boats/Snipers exploiting the flanking reward and too much of a difference between kill assist and kill/solo kill.

LRM and Snipers should get their own LRM/Sniper support reward based on damage done with a bonus for using tagged/narced targets and the flanking reward should get a LoS and distance check so it only is rewarded if you actually see the other mech and are below a certain distance to the target.

[Lily from animove]

Ok, something in detail

Quote

Kill Most Damage:

• Compared to all other players, deal the most damage to a target.
  
• The target dies.

thats not good, A wild reddish guy appears, me and my lancemates act with wild fire. lets say he has a total of 100dmg recceived and drops dead.

Me has done 26 dmg.
lancemate 1+2 25
lancemate 3 24.

yay much moniez for meh wohooooo, but in the end, we all did a farily equal share, I was just the lucky one. While my lancemates gonna make the "me no gusta meme face"

If now on top of this lucky thing I am delivering the killing blow I meet the conditions for:

Quote

Killing Blow:

• Deal the killing shot to a target.

Solo Kill:

• Achieve both "Kill Most Damage" and "Killing Blow" for the same target.

WOAH amazing epic shiny MAOR moneehh. you would now see the trollfce appearing on me, because well, amazing how I am? Not really. While my Lancemates "me no gustas" would turn into "FFFFUUUUUUUU meme "

Sry, this feels wrong.

2 possibilities how it would be better:

First: A mech gives X amount of reward depended on his weight. Rewards are given by the amount a mech received damage in the process to get killed, distibuted equally in % amongst those having done damage. The killing guy gets a bit extra.

Second
When you wanna keep your kind of rewards, set some borders to define the assist, change them to be more of a effort related versions:

Kill light assist:

• deal < 20% dmg to a mech
  
• The target dies.

Kill medium assist:

• deal 20%<50% dmg to a mech
  
• The target dies.

kill big assist

• deal >50% dmg to a mech
  
• The target dies.

kill solo

• deal >80% dmg to a mech
  
• The target dies.

but right now, when 10 guys fire at an opponent I can "solo kill" a mech by doing 11% damage and getting the kill. Hardly the definition of SOLO yet I get all the juicy rewards. The above example would change this much more in relation to what someone did. It would also reduce the "kill steal" issue.




Don't reward kills that high, a kill can be 1dmg or the entire "throught the armor through the core" thingy.

And therefore a killing blow should be a tiny additional reward on top of the wor done on a mech on its way to death.


Same for the brawling stuff and such.

I also don't like how the brawling reward works, because an atlas stuffed with Ac 20 and srms is the trueborn definition of brawling, yet he is excluded form that reward. AND on top of this, you need to be the killer to get the brawling reward. So an atlas may either get an extremely low amount of reward.Yet in a MDD with 6srm 6, I can fire all the stuff getting a kill rather easily, and when I have the luck its a fresh noca, wow,

Kill most damage reward,
Killing blow
Solo Kill
and Brawler.

a medium appears, he fires all the stuff,

further question, my own tags grant me tag assist?

TAG Damage:

• TAG a target.
  
• Damage is dealt to that target while target is still TAGed.
  
• Reward is multiplied by the damage dealt in points.
  
• Reward is only shown on HUD once finished or interrupted (total number rewarded).
  
• Reward is only given if the target is tagged for at least 2 seconds.
  
• Reward is only given if the target takes at least 5 damage.
  
• The reward has a cooldown of 2 seconds.
  
• This timer resets to 2 seconds with every point of damage dealt.
  
• Once the timer reaches 0 all the accumulated reward is given to the player/shown on HUD.
  
• The reward is finished when:
  
  • Tag is removed from the target.
    
  • The target dies.

TAG Kill:

• The user is tagging the target.
  
• The target gets destroyed WHILE being TAGed.

I mean the conditions don't say it excludes me,






this can theoretically and practically very often generate the following situation:

I come across a mech in a narrow city condition in my MDD, 6xsrm6. When I now slap 1 tag and sone laser on it.

I would:

fire 2x3 srms6 within 1 second.

triggers: 35*72 dmg =2520.

after some secodns I fire again, probably killing him, up to another 2520 form this tag damage condition

so we are at 5040 cbills here.
Now I will also achieve


at least 1x Component Destroyed = 2300
1x Kill = 4000
72 * Damage Done * 21 = 1512
maybe Spotting Assist = 2000
Kill Most Damage = 5000
Solo Kill = 10000
maybe Flanking = 1500 if he twists like hell
Brawling= 4500
Tag Damage = 5040 as calculated above
Tag Kill = 6000
maybe Hit And Run = 2000 is this also granted in this condition?

so when in this situation my calculation is right I can get like 38352 Cbills + the maybe's of 7500. if that mech dies with only 2 volleys of 6xSRM6. a heavy may even grant more score for getting shot with more damage.

Fo a single kill which can often last only a few seconds and is not an uncommon situation.

So yes excluding assaults form the brawler may reduce stacking that solo kill brawler stuff thing, but yet the brawler isn't even the big deal at this condition. yet calculate the Scores for yourself when the "kill gets stolen" and suddenly 14.000 cbills less are granted because kill 4k and solo kill 10k are not triggered. maybe by someoen coming across doind a single damage.

Numbers don't feel good when I go through my mind and see what situations I had and what of your conditions would have ben triggered.

lets yet play this the other way around. and say we both met in a MDD, and he left me cored dark red, so I had to hide the entire rest of the mach not doing anything else than surviving.

He would have gotten a load less because he is not meeting the conditions:

brawler
component destrcuct
kill
solo kill
kill most damage
tag kill

well he gets, 6552 cbills for this, with the slight difference that he may have not done that last single damage. maybe because his srm was spreading a bit unlucky. roughly 32k of Cbills difference by purely luck based equally hard fighting and equally well doing opponents, except that one tiny single killing blow, which is a required trigger amongst 6 too well rewarding conditions. This could probably cause a new breed of killing horny little Mechwarrios.

In relation, stealthy tagging someone for 6 seconds After taking a hidden position somewhere grants only 150Cbills. WOW, why ever bothering with any attemps to be a stealthy scout when you can be right in the money pot battles?

Those rewards need a healthy rework

Edited by Lily from animove, 22 October 2014 - 05:10 AM.

[Willothius]

Lily from animove, on 22 October 2014 - 04:06 AM, said:

Ok, something in detail








thats not good, A wild reddish guy appears, me and my lancemates act with wild fire. lets say he has a total of 100dmg recceived and drops dead.

Me has done 26 dmg.
lancemate 1+2 25
lancemate 3 24.

yay much moniez for meh wohooooo, but in the end, we all did a farily equal share, I was just the lucky one. While my lancemates gonna make the "me no gusta meme face"

If now on top of this lucky thing I am delivering the killing blow I meet the conditions for:







WOAH amazing epic shiny MAOR moneehh. you would now see the trollfce appearing on me, because well, amazing how I am? Not really. While my Lancemates "me no gustas" would turn into "FFFFUUUUUUUU meme "

Sry, this feels wrong.

2 possibilities how it would be better:

First: A mech gives X amount of reward depended on his weight. Rewards are given by the amount a mech received damage in the process to get killed, distibuted equally in % amongst those having done damage. The killing guy gets a bit extra.

Second
When you wanna keep your kind of rewards, set some borders to define the assist, change them to be more of a effort related versions:

Kill light assist:

• deal < 20% dmg to a mech
  
• The target dies.

Kill medium assist:

• deal 20%<50% dmg to a mech
  
• The target dies.

kill big assist

• deal >50% dmg to a mech
  
• The target dies.

kill solo

• deal >80% dmg to a mech
  
• The target dies.

but right now, when 10 guys fire at an opponent I can "solo kill" a mech by doing 11% damage and getting the kill. Hardly the definition of SOLO yet I get all the juicy rewards. The above example would change this much more in relation to what someone did. It would also reduce the "kill steal" issue.



Don't reward kills that high, a kill can be 1dmg or the entire "throught the armor through the core" thingy.

And therefore a killing blow should be a tiny additional reward on top of the wor done on a mech on its way to death.


Same for the brawling stuff and such.

I also don't like how the brawling reward works, because an atlas stuffed with Ac 20 and srms is the trueborn definition of brawling, yet he is excluded form that reward. AND on top of this, you need to be the killer to get the brawling reward. So an atlas may either get an extremely low amount of reward.Yet in a MDD with 6srm 6, I can fire all the stuff getting a kill rather easily, and when I have the luck its a fresh noca, wow,

Kill most damage reward,
Killing blow
Solo Kill
and Brawler.

a medium appears, he fires all the stuff,

further question, my own tags grant me tag assist?

TAG Damage:

• TAG a target.
  
• Damage is dealt to that target while target is still TAGed.
  
• Reward is multiplied by the damage dealt in points.
  
• Reward is only shown on HUD once finished or interrupted (total number rewarded).
  
• Reward is only given if the target is tagged for at least 2 seconds.
  
• Reward is only given if the target takes at least 5 damage.
  
• The reward has a cooldown of 2 seconds.
  
• This timer resets to 2 seconds with every point of damage dealt.
  
• Once the timer reaches 0 all the accumulated reward is given to the player/shown on HUD.
  
• The reward is finished when:
  
  • Tag is removed from the target.
    
  • The target dies.

TAG Kill:

• The user is tagging the target.
  
• The target gets destroyed WHILE being TAGed.

I mean the conditions don't say it excludes me,





this cna theoretically and practically ver yoften generate the following situation:

I come across a mech in a narrow coty condition ny my MDD, 6xsrm6. When I now slap 1 tag and one laser on it.

I would:

fire 2x3 srms6 within 1 second.

triggers: 35*72 dmg =2520.

after some secodns I fire again, probably killing him, up to another 2520 form this tag damage condition

so we are at 5040 cbills here.
Now I will also achieve


at least 1x Component Destroyed = 2300
1x Kill = 4000
72 * Damage Done * 21 = 1512
maybe Spotting Assist = 2000
Kill Most Damage = 5000
Solo Kill = 10000
maybe Flanking = 1500 if he twists like hell
Brawling= 4500
Tag Damage = 5040 as calculated above
Tag Kill = 6000
maybe Hit And Run = 2000 is this also granted in this condition?

so when in this situation my calculation is right I can get like 38352 Cbills + the maybe's of 7500. if that mech dies with only 2 volleys of 6xSRM6. a heavy may even grant more score for getting shot with more damage.

Fo a single kill which can often last only a few seconds and is not an uncommon situation.

So yes excluding assaults form the brawler may reduce stakcing that solo kill brawler stuff thing, but yet the brawler isn't even the big deal at this condition. yet calculate the croes for yourself when the "kill gets stolen" and suddenly 14.000 cbills less are granted because kill 4k and solo kill 10k are not triggered. maybe by someoen coming across doind a single damage.

Numbers don't feel good when I go through my mind and see what situations I had and what of your conditions would have ben triggered.

lets yet play this the other way around. and say we both met in a MDD, and he left me cored dark red, so I had to hide the entire rets of the mach not doind anythign else.

he would have gotten a load less because he is not meeting the conditions:

brawler
component destrcuct
kill
solo kill
kill most damage
tag kill

well he gets, 6552 cbills for this, with the slight difference that he may have not done that last single damage. mayb because his srm was spreading a bit unlucky. roughly 32k of Cbills difference by purely luck based equally hard fighting and equally well doing opponents, except that one tiny single killing blow, which is a required triggers amongst 6 too well rewarding conditions. This could probably cause a new breed of killing horny little mechwarrios.

in relation, stealthy tagging someone for 6 seconds after taking a hidden position somewhere grants only 150Cbills. WOW, why ever bothering with any attemps to be a stealthy scout when you can be right in the money pot battles?

Those rewards need a healthy rework

All of the above. All of it. Absorb it PGI!

[Runs With Scissors]

Wait a minute, when they nerfed c-bills last year they said a new rewards program (which would involve role warfare) would make up the difference.  Now they actually implement the rewards they said they would and they nerf c-bills again?  What the heck

Edited by Runs With Scissors, 22 October 2014 - 04:27 AM.

[Shlkt]

Solid patch. I like the reward system, ya'll just need to tune the numbers a bit to make losses less frustrating.

[Javin]

After playing a few games I realize that playing as a team, tagging, staying in lance means lots of C-bills, unless you die early. If you are unfortunate to be focused you get no c-bills. Staying alive matters more than ever. I am liking this more.

[John1352]

My pay has decreased dramatically, even with 600+ damage and a 30% bonus, I'm struggling to get 100,000. How the hell are people getting 250k? Am I missing something?

Edit: I'm starting to figure it out now, basically, if you want to get cbills, grab an assault that can do huge amounts of damage in a very short time, and get the stacked kill+solo kill+kill most damage+brawling (sometimes + savior kill) and get a massive reward.

This is bad for new players who don't have the cbills for elite assaults or the positioning skills to pull it off.

Edited by John1352, 22 October 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[xWiredx]

I have seen maybe no drop or a small drop in c-bills (I only played my new Atlas S last night, and I didn't pay attention to the math, but the numbers seemed to be in about the same range as I normally would get). What I noticed immediately was the huge decrease (20-40%) in exp. earned. I think the new rewards are a little biased toward the lights and mediums. It's nice to have an incentive to play them, but when I get more exp. in my new Centurion than I do in my new Atlas -and- my performance in the Centurion was not nearly as good, I wouldn't expect to get more exp. out of the deal. That is, however, exactly what happened.

[Jetfire]

costi, on 22 October 2014 - 03:11 AM, said:

So, by your logic, Heavy/Assault players should just leave their Mechs in the hangar and drive Medium/Lights to earn money?

The games has 4 classes of mechs and each should be economically viable. Especially since Heavies and Assaults are the most expensive things, so after grinding endlessly for one, I would expect it to pay off at least decently.

Not remotely what I said. Heavy and Assault used to make way more than was likely for Lights and Mediums, now it is possible to make good money in any chassis via role warfare. I was making plenty in my Atlas last night and unlike before, so was my lance mate in his Jenner. I was making a little less than normal but was being rewarded for good performance. I see no reason an Atlas should just make more money than a Jenner if both contribute to the match equally. I have never seen an Atlas scout effectively and without scouting it is going to have a hard time. I do way more damage when someone is scouting and NARC'ing for me then I can bring the brawl when I get there.

Edited by Jetfire, 22 October 2014 - 05:25 AM.

[TorinZ]

I like the new reward categories, I think it paints a better picture of how well you do in a match. I do think the Cbill rewards were a little lower than before the patch based on the base payout, so pulling data over the next few days hopefully will show that. I hope that data is looking at mechs and maybe builds too to see if there is a pattern that might stick out since some players are stating a larger loss in income while others feel they are looking as good or better.

One thing I would request once all this settles some is, can our personal stat page reflect some of these new categories? Never thought the Stats page showed enough detail that reflects what kind of pilot you are. But a lot of the new categories would really show the detail I would like to see.

[ManOfAthens]

My main concern is that players who are already well geared are the ones to which all the C-Bills are going in this apparently "balanced" economy. Players in fully mastered-meta builds (who arguably don't need a C-Bill/XP boost) are going to make bank, while anyone in a sub-par 'Mech, or with sub-par skill is going to be crippled. It makes it a lot more difficult to climb out of the poverty-hole so to speak.

Compounding income gain is an undeniable real-world economic principle... one that people don't play match-based multiplayer games to experience. New players (who tend to lose... a lot) won't even bother.

[keith]

really need ti tweak the numbers. played last night for around 2 hours, barley made 1 million c bills. seems the only way to make money now is to get flank bonus/hit n run. for some reason that works on lrm mechs. that is a big no no. second u have a brawler bonus for getting a kill but no sniper bonus? pgi y the hate for ppl who love the long range game. last really look at the data u gather... just don't lump all the data for the last 3 days together then avg it all together and say its 10% better. don't forgot to take random looks ppl scores. statics is the art of lying with numbers y i hate so much

[Reptilizer]

What i really am missing is a dedicated reward for the role of assaults.
Being the tanks of MWO, they should receive a reward for the damage they soaked up before they are killed...

[Sadist Cain]

I'm loving the new rewards system, I'd love to see everything earned through role specific actions on the battlefield. To that end I look forward to hopefully seeing more and more added down the line.

The only qualm I have at the moment is how little reward team based actions give compared to individual actions.

Someone suggested somewhere that it would be good if there was a focus fire bonus where all of your Lance is engaging the same target.
I'd like to see more rewards like that
Teamwork should give the largest rewards after all.

[Airox]

Posted on another thread about this, so I'll make a shortened version of that post.

The goal should not be to make bad matches reward less and good matches more than before. This really hurts new players.

A lot of people are saying the only problem is with the numbers, this is not true! The rewards encourage dumb play!

Lance formation reward encourages players to stick together even when it is tactically a bad play!

Hit and Run encourages players to STOP shooting so that they can get 2000 cbills.

Solo Kill is the worst. Focus fire is the best way to win. 4 or more mechs all targeting the same opponent. In this case there is little chance of a solo kill being awarded at all, and yet solo kills are where the juicy cbills are. Going after this reward encourages Clan like honor duels.

Tag Kill teaches that holding a tag on an enemy in a brawl is better than a medium laser. Well, it's not.

I could go on, but please, stop encouraging bad play.

[ManOfAthens]

Paul Inouye, on 21 October 2014 - 05:10 PM, said:

I am very pleased to tell you that, after a first gathering of data, the reward economy stayed stable. We are currently looking at fluctuations between 5% to 10% compared to what it was before. What we have found is, the economy is still intact and the new rewards are functioning very well.

Actually, I'm curious. When looking at the economy, are/can you calculate only the total (with premium/hero bonuses) or do you get the base numbers before bonuses are applied? You need to keep in the mind ridiculous amount of +30% 'Mechs that have been played over the last 24 hrs. Could be seriously affecting your numbers.

[STEF_]

I started this thread this morning

http://mwomercs.com/...-reward-system/

So, I can confirm here too.
This is the right direction. I hope you won't listening whining kids too much

Edited by Stefka Kerensky, 22 October 2014 - 06:18 AM.

[Arend]

Well overall this new Reward System is a Step in the Right Direction, but it needs alot of finetuning, overall the Rewards for win and loose should be more balanced, specially for new Players the Game has become even more frustrating, overall the income is way to low in my opinion.

An average Mech (full equiped) of 12,5 Million should take about 50 Matches to obtain, that means with an average of 7,5 Minutes a Match, around 6-7 Hours Matchtime, which is ok i think, but atm you are rather need double or even more time, which is really fruststrating for new Players, i tried to convince some of my Friends to play MWO but, guess what most gave up after a short time, cause there was no progress, no shiny new toys to play with, just grind, grind, grind.

Overall, in my Opinion the Game would be way more attractiv to new Players if it would be easier to get new Mechs and be able to try out things in the Mechlab!