311 replies to this topic

[DocBach]

CyclonerM, on 23 October 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Russ said more than a time that CW is considered "hardcore roleplaying mode" (though it is actually not that hardcore or we would have some kind of 'Mech limitation based on the 'Mechs manufactured by your faction and that stuff.. )

Speaking of this -- since PGI isn't keen on restricting player choice and would rather reward certain choices, perhaps certain model 'mechs should gain loyalty points quicker for different factions, eg the Zeus would get a more Steiner loyalty points, Enforcer accrues Davion points quicker. The generic loyalty point boosters of the Phoenix 'Mech could be faction non-specific.

[L Y N X]

[color=#5decb1]Have you considered that the opposing player last to shoot the ejecting pilot's mech the moment before he ejects is ACTUALLY the FINAL BLOW? [/color]

This is something we could do but the actual Eject system is still being thought through in terms of timing and people trying to exploit the system to "deny a player a kill".


This was my question to you, but unless we are not speaking the same english language, you answered with a talking point or canned response, and did not think through the question and provided answer. okay, please allow me to engage from another tact, in what way could the eject system possibly be exploited where the last enemy to hit the ejecting pilot's mech gets awarded the killing blow? Before the mech gets hit? Simple answer is to not enable/arm the ejection subsystem until damage is received.

So I will take your answer in the context that you can be smart and do the right thing, but you guys are still mulling this over, unless there is something I am really missing here, this is not rocket science, unlike 20th century ejection seats that actually were rocket science.

[Logan Hawke]

@Cycloner

What you described as the gameplay for TC's End War online play is exactly what I'd like to see for CW.

I suppose I can see some validity in that argument from an immersion side, though I would think of it like 'alright fellas, we defended the IS/took terra/whatever goal brought you to the win event, now let's see if we can take it before those Davion/Jaguar/Kurita jags can get halfway there!'
Additionally with that, what I would really like to see is cycling campaigns like in MekWars. Start with Clan Invasion, then flip to 3039, then Jihad, then 2nd Succession War, then FedCom civil war, then Amaris uprising, etc etc etc. There'd be enough time between the same seasons that when you do finally get back to the Clan Invasion it feels fresh, almost like you're driving for Terra for the first time.

And yes it is funny. Though there is an edge of frustration with me because of how much I absolutely don't want to see this become PS2/EVE

Edited by Logan Hawke, 23 October 2014 - 01:10 PM.

[RustyBolts]

Wow I am amazed at how many people read the first post and then respond without reading the rest, only to be asking the same damn questions 15 other people asked because those people didnt read past the first post either.


Maybe if the devs didnt have to cycle through 7 pages of post to read the same questions over and over then maybe we could get them to spend more time answering non recurring questions or maybe working on CW.

[Fantastic Ergo]

CyclonerM, on 23 October 2014 - 12:27 PM, said:

Neg. I always thought that they should let you use only the loyalty items of the faction you are fighting for, and they did it!

If you are a traitor of House Davion and join the Draconis Combine (to use their example) you would never fly a Davion skin or banner (an overzealous officer might have you shot ).

Besides, we need some penalty to faction switching besides losses of LPs imho.
Third best quote of the week

With all due respect I think your logic is flawed and you are only seeing this from your own roleplaying point of view.

Rewards are earn by dedication, effort and skill. these things should not be taken away.
Whether you bring something or wear something from another faction, that is a choice which is based on role playing.

If I go to Yale and I get a masters, but then decide to switch to MIT and switch my Major, then I will have to start there and get that but no one will take away the master degree already obtain.

If a QB in football achieves the record passing yards in one season, then he goes to another team and plays for them. No one takes away his record in the other team.

Brining your reward into the game from another faction should be a choice, and most people will not choose to bring it, that's what role playing is. but something that you earn should not be taken away, you earned it.

I am all for the loyalty points going down, that makes sense, but achievements, rewards, recognition. No these are each pilot's merits.

In the B-tech books there are plenty of examples, Gray Death Legion, had to work with his arch enemy in order to get the cache of Star league tech, and he was respected by his enemy and honored their deal based on Gray's merits.

Justin Xiang Allard was accepted in high command by the Capellan Confederation because of his merits and knowledge obtain in House Davion and Solaris, yes they thought he was a Davion traitor but that's not what got him a high place on their command, it was his merits.

So leave role playing a choice, but don't take away rewards and merits one achieves in this game.

Also think about Merc units who want to be elite no matter which faction they are working at the time, their merits should remain and be recognized, You are just thinking about a pilot like you who wants to only be part of one faction.

Edited by Fantastic Ergo, 23 October 2014 - 01:24 PM.

[Logan Hawke]

Fantastic Ergo, on 23 October 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

-snip-

At least 10,000% agreed. Rewards are rewards are rewards. If you lose them by switching... why switch? And that in and of itself will create another stale atmosphere where you're permanently locked in. (not to mention locking down mechs that you cannot use anymore because gosh darn it I want to play as clanner scum at least some of the time )

Edited by Logan Hawke, 23 October 2014 - 01:25 PM.

[Gerhardt Jorgensson]

Fantastic Ergo, on 23 October 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

Justin Xiang Allard was accepted in high command by the Capellan Confederation because of his merits and knowledge obtain in House Davion and Solaris, yes they thought he was a Davion traitor but that's not what got him a high place on their command, it was his merits.

The thing about those merits, where that they were earned and respected by their specific Houses -- the Gray Death Legion for example worked elusively for House Steiner and Justin Allard had a death sentence in the Capellan Confederation. Merits or not, shooting someone on one team then trying to work for them expecting to be a general because of previous merits in service of a different nation is sort of a stretch.

This new system lets you switch nations, but if you do, you got to work from the ground back up. The big reason I would wager they are going with a system like this is to discourage players from jumping ship all the time to whichever faction is winning.

[CyclonerM]

Logan Hawke, on 23 October 2014 - 01:09 PM, said:

@Cycloner

What you described as the gameplay for TC's End War online play is exactly what I'd like to see for CW.

I suppose I can see some validity in that argument from an immersion side, though I would think of it like 'alright fellas, we defended the IS/took terra/whatever goal brought you to the win event, now let's see if we can take it before those Davion/Jaguar/Kurita jags can get halfway there!'
Additionally with that, what I would really like to see is cycling campaigns like in MekWars. Start with Clan Invasion, then flip to 3039, then Jihad, then 2nd Succession War, then FedCom civil war, then Amaris uprising, etc etc etc. There'd be enough time between the same seasons that when you do finally get back to the Clan Invasion it feels fresh, almost like you're driving for Terra for the first time.

Keep in mind that in End War you fight on about 45 maps i think. In CW we are going to fight (not at the sime time of course) on many more planets. It is much harder for a single faction to own the whole map, and this is one of the main concerns of the pro-season people

You cannot forget the first time

I admit i would like to play in different eras. However, i believe we can get some of both.

With CW, in any way it works, we will be shaping our own history of the Inner Sphere. However, they said that lore-based battles and events may still take place. Then, assuming this is final , i believewe could "mash" the canon events with our own IS history.

For example, the Clans reach Terra, but they are pushed back and decide to deviate to surround it. They start capturing a strip of Kurita and Davion worlds. Then, new alliances and backstabbings happen (everyday stuff in the Inner Sphere).. And in the meantime, the timeline is advanced. It is now 3067. Whatever the situation of the IS is, a new faction is available: Word of Blake. They start from the worlds of the Blake Protectorate (was it the name? ) and they can attack both Clan and IS in any direction.. New, fresh direction!

At the same time, some new tech and 'Mech packs can be released (unless the weapons were released for the Civil War.. But i see it as a bit harder to represent in CW, they will have to sort it out)! Fresh equipment and 'Mechs! Then, it goes forward, maybe to Dark Age, or maybe no, who knows

Anyway, their first design had seasons all the same replay of Op. Revival. You can see why some of us hated them so much

Fantastic Ergo, on 23 October 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

With all due respect I think your logic is flawed and you are only seeing this from your own roleplaying point of view.

Rewards are earn by dedication, effort and skill. these things should not be taken away.
Whether you bring something or wear something from another faction, that is a choice which is based on role playing.

If I go to Yale and I get a masters, but then decide to switch to MIT and switch my Major, then I will have to start there and get that but no one will take away the master degree already obtain.

If a QB in football achieves the record passing yards in one season, then he goes to another team and plays for them. No one takes away his record in the other team.

Brining your reward into the game from another faction should be a choice, and most people will not choose to bring it, that's what role playing is. but something that you earn should not be taken away, you earned it.

I am all for the loyalty points going down, that makes sense, but achievements, rewards, recognition. No these are each pilot's merits.

In the B-tech books there are plenty of examples, Gray Death Legion, had to work with his arch enemy in order to get the cache of Star league tech, and he was respected by his enemy and honored their deal based on Gray's merits.

Justin Xiang Allard was accepted in high command by the Capellan Confederation because of his merits and knowledge obtain in House Davion and Solaris, yes they thought he was a Davion traitor but that's not what got him a high place on their command, it was his merits.

So leave role playing a choice, but don't take away rewards and merits one achieves in this game.

The Golden Keshik.. I see where you are coming from. Competitive mindset, quiaff?

Well, we are talking about a "hardcore roleplaying gamemode" so RP is not a choice, apparently.

I understand what you say, but i think yours are not truly perfect examples. If one day you walk away from your barracks on a Davion garrison base and hop on a Kurita DropShip, you do not lose your experience with 'Mechs (and in-game you would not lose, for example, our unlocked skills). However, if you are now a Kurita MechWarrior, why would you use a Davion skin or fly a sunburst? Why would a WWII german officer allow one of his tank crews to paint an american Star on their Panzer? I am talking about a much more simple issue

Logan Hawke, on 23 October 2014 - 01:25 PM, said:

At least 10,000% agreed. Rewards are rewards are rewards. If you lose them by switching... why switch? And that in and of itself will create another stale atmosphere where you're permanently locked in. )

This is one of the purposes
It is not like any MechWarrior jumps around fighting for all the factions. I think that very few would become traitors or simply think of joining their hated enemy's army..

Gerhardt Jorgensson, on 23 October 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

The thing about those merits, where that they were earned and respected by their specific Houses -- the Gray Death Legion for example worked elusively for House Steiner and Justin Allard had a death sentence in the Capellan Confederation. Merits or not, shooting someone on one team then trying to work for them expecting to be a general because of previous merits in service of a different nation is sort of a stretch.

This new system lets you switch nations, but if you do, you got to work from the ground back up. The big reason I would wager they are going with a system like this is to discourage players from jumping ship all the time to whichever faction is winning.

Exactly. I would add, however, more LP rewards and less LP losses for mercs fighting for a really underperforming nation, or fighting against the Clans.

[Ayrmoon]

I admit, I didn’t read all of the pages to this point. So if this was asked or bought to your attention already, I’m sorry for the repeat post…

Paul Inouye wrote - With this system, it IS possible for a Merc Unit to align to House Steiner for [1] month and at the end of that month, switch to a [1] month alignment to Clan Jade Falcon. Note that this will NOT bypass technology locks. When the Unit is aligned to Steiner, only IS 'Mechs can be used, and when aligned to Clan Jade Falcon, only Clan 'Mechs can be used.

I see a potential problem with this for large (and maybe even smaller) units. Especially Merc Units.

Not everyone has clan mechs. Some players are purist and will only play IS mechs (Maybe some will only play clan mechs as well. But I’m going just talk about IS purists). Others, may not want to put out the cost for clan mechs. So, if the unit leader picks an IS fraction for a month of contracts, everyone in the unit can participate. However if he changes it up to a month of clan contracts, now everyone in that unit who does not own a clan mech is unable to play CW for 30 days!

Is there a way for a unit to work two different contracts for the period? One IS and one Clan? If not, it seems like a unit will only be able to work IS contracts and those who have clan mechs will never get to use them in CW. Or the unit leader will give in to the calls of clan mech owners and get a clan contract for the unit, which will leave the IS purist out in the cold of space.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration,
Ayrmoon

[Logan Hawke]

@Cyclone

Hold up, you would rather people not be able to switch, let alone use their rewards? That one I know for absolute certainty will upset (and by upset I mean absolutely, royally piss off vast swathes of players). You don't blanket restrict things people have earned in game and expect the majority to just be okay with it.

And with the American/German thing, it's nitpicking but there were plenty of instances where every side in WWII disguised their vehicles with the other side's insignia or captured enemy vehicles and only hastily paint their own symbol over it leaving all the other markings the same. As I said, just nitpicking because I realize it's not truly the same thing.

[Hoax415]

shad0w4life, on 23 October 2014 - 12:30 PM, said:

"Some planned LP rewards include titles, Faction specific skins, Rank specific skins and other novelites. The full list of rewards will be listed once we have them ironed out with both the design and art teams"

Faction specific "unique" weapons or mechs etc.

Faction mechs or weapons will never ever happen. Because if that equipment is really good, that causes all sorts of game balance problems. Additionally to have a faction anything you need 6 IS versions and 4 Clan versions. They aren't going to produce 10 free mechs so that you feel LP's are valuable enough. You get LP's for playing the game, playing the game is fun..

Ayrmoon, on 23 October 2014 - 01:45 PM, said:

So, if the unit leader picks an IS fraction for a month of contracts, everyone in the unit can participate. However if he changes it up to a month of clan contracts, now everyone in that unit who does not own a clan mech is unable to play CW for 30 days!

Is there a way for a unit to work two different contracts for the period? One IS and one Clan? If not, it seems like a unit will only be able to work IS contracts and those who have clan mechs will never get to use them in CW. Or the unit leader will give in to the calls of clan mech owners and get a clan contract for the unit, which will leave the IS purist out in the cold of space.

If you care about CW and are in a unit for CW, then you will need to pick/find a unit that intends to play on the side of the IS vs Clan divide you want to play on. Its as simple as that.

That can't be considered too much to ask. A simple work around is for units to form a clan-version or IS-version of themselves that players can swap over to if they want to use the other types of mechs. Or individual players can just join a different unit. Or you can just play public queue games and drop in whatever the hell you want.

Edited by Hoax415, 23 October 2014 - 02:13 PM.

[Fantastic Ergo]

Again you are trying to force people into role playing, this should be a choice, and a reward is a reward earned by yourself. An ace is an ace regardless of what faction he is at, If I switch faction because I am a merc and then decide to pick up a different contract from faction #2, but then after 6 months I decided to switch faction again to #1 I should be able to use the rewards that I have earned (and most important spent my LP on) Yes the loyalty points on that faction may be lower and it will take me a while to bring them back up to the time I left. but what you earned should not be taken away, and just because you go play for another faction should be a mandatory you cant use it, it should be a player choice because they are playing for another faction. I have Davion medals and banner on MWO which I bought myself when I was HHoD, and now am Clan Wolf, I can still take those, but I choose not to because am a wolf now.

If things will be taken away, then I will not waste my time to even try getting them at all.

Again , don't think about just your situation where you are probably always going to be your faction, think about those mercs who want to get contracts from different units, think about those pilots who had to break away from a unit because personal differences and then find a home in a different unit but different faction. To take away something earned and bought is not right in real life or in game.

[Scromboid]

Taking an earned portion of the game (rewards) away from a player because they want to play another part of your game is a bad idea.

Please do not punish us for wanting to experience the whole game.

[BARBAR0SSA]

Hoax415, on 23 October 2014 - 02:13 PM, said:

Faction mechs or weapons will never ever happen. Because if that equipment is really good, that causes all sorts of game balance problems. Additionally to have a faction anything you need 6 IS versions and 4 Clan versions. They aren't going to produce 10 free mechs so that you feel LP's are valuable enough. You get LP's for playing the game, playing the game is fun..

Quirk system or balancing via equivalent hardpoints etc could be done.
At least unique geometry on mechs or something.
but this LP system right now, I'd say stop all work and release CW sooner it doesn't add anything feature wise anyone would really want to delay CW for.

[Appogee]

Paul, you've explained that being in your Mech as it's destroyed - without ejecting - will still land you back in the Drop Ship, ready for your next drop.

So, what is the point of ejecting...? You may as well make ejection automatic upon destruction of the Mech?

[DocBach]

Fantastic Ergo, on 23 October 2014 - 02:16 PM, said:

Again you are trying to force people into role playing, this should be a choice, and a reward is a reward earned by yourself. An ace is an ace regardless of what faction he is at, If I switch faction because I am a merc and then decide to pick up a different contract from faction #2, but then after 6 months I decided to switch faction again to #1 I should be able to use the rewards that I have earned (and most important spent my LP on) Yes the loyalty points on that faction may be lower and it will take me a while to bring them back up to the time I left. but what you earned should not be taken away, and just because you go play for another faction should be a mandatory you cant use it, it should be a player choice because they are playing for another faction. I have Davion medals and banner on MWO which I bought myself when I was HHoD, and now am Clan Wolf, I can still take those, but I choose not to because am a wolf now.

If things will be taken away, then I will not waste my time to even try getting them at all.

Again , don't think about just your situation where you are probably always going to be your faction, think about those mercs who want to get contracts from different units, think about those pilots who had to break away from a unit because personal differences and then find a home in a different unit but different faction. To take away something earned and bought is not right in real life or in game.

If you want a choice to where the previous choices you make have no effect on your gameplay, there is the open queue for you to play in. The faction warfare portion of the game is specifically for players involved in their specific factions, and changing those factions will come at a penalty.

Appogee, on 23 October 2014 - 03:07 PM, said:

So, what is the point of ejecting...? You may as well make ejection automatic upon destruction of the Mech?

Paul mentioned ejection was for when you are match-sticked with no guns or ammo and wanted a quick trip to the respawn.

[Deathshade]

These updates are a pretty basic list of core objectives stated before with a bit more detail. I see you guys have toned down your projects to basic xml "IS quirk" changes and a simplified goal list for your current CW updates. What are you guys working on that you can't tell the WHOLE story on here?

Maybe some planet drop tests?

How about some planet map icon flags used to show how much is conquered there?

OR maybe even faction based color changes on our classic starmap? Am I even close?

Some vague images would be great again like last time. Maybe another look at an end screen for planetary assaults?

[Bluttrunken]

I think you shouldn't forbid Clan or IS Mech use based on faction choice. I want to play *all* my mechs in *all* game-modes. I understand the lore implications but, tbh, that doesn't do much for me. I got a Cent, Trebuchet, Stormcrow, Raven, Jenner and might go for a Clan Light next. Making 50% of my garage useless based on faction-choice is nonsense.

[Naduk]

i do not thing people should be able to swap from clan to IS and back again
but people should be able to play their clan mechs or IS mechs at any given time

so i think the perfect solution is to have two characters within the same account ?
PGI was talking about pilot levels a while back
if we take that concept and have a separate pilot level per IS/CLAN then swapping teams will only be permitted within the natural affiliations

this will also allow for some nifty things for the purposes of organization of assets
for example, the mech lab when your IS/CLAN pilot is active will only show the mechs available to them specifically
same for inventory and skill trees
you can even have some fancy art to continue the theme set out by clan mechs themselves, make the hud of the mechlab blue, change it from a dirty IS hanger to a nice clean-ish new looking hanger ...ect

the split will create a zero confusion wall between what is allowed and not allowed with faction relations
this will also allow collectors to enjoy all of their mechs and allow die hard loyalists to shut out and shun all the irrelevant gear they cannot use

this way we can fully take advantage of the proposed team switching set out by pauls document
a player could swap their steiner half over to davion and separately swap their dagger star to jade falcon

people are doing this already with alt accounts
these players would finally be able to do everything they want in one account

the only major issue i can see with it is units and how that gets treated
so for CW purposes (and perhaps only in CW) there would likely need to be some sort of timer so you cannot swap from IS/CLAN at a fast rate to prevent planets from being farmed but one guild

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

Fantastic Ergo, on 23 October 2014 - 01:20 PM, said:

...
If a QB in football achieves the record passing yards in one season, then he goes to another team and plays for them. No one takes away his record in the other team.
...

I'm pulling this line in particular, because it is relevant.

The QB retains the record, and the fame that goes along with it, but he probably cannot wear his old team's jersey or ride in his old team's bus or party in his old team's locker room after a victory, and may not even be the starting QB in his first season with the new team. He also will probably have to get some new endorsements, and will definitely not get any of the bonuses his previous team gave him from his old contract.

All that said, while I agree that anything rewarded to the MechWarrior for achieving certain things or milestones (cockpit trinkets, colors, skins, 'mechs, etc.) should be usable, there should also be rewards for actual LOYALTY, sticking with one faction through thick and thin ... and those should only be available while that loyalty continues to be demonstrated.

The reward for switching should be access to the new faction's rewards, the penalty for switching is that some things (not all) may be taken away. This reward and penalty system will go a long way towards keeping the factions balanced. Some players and units will remain loyal to one faction, others will follow the best rewards, others will rally behind the winner, others will try and support the underdog. (I don't envy PGI's task of maintaining that balance.)