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Community Warfare Update - Oct 22 - Feedback


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#181 Sprouticus

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 05:29 AM

View PostMoridan, on 24 October 2014 - 03:48 AM, said:

Looking through all of the original post and following Q & A, I didnt see any specific details on how Clan will be balanced Vs IS. It's becoming more and more obvious that in a match, the team with more Clan mechs typically wins. There is just no comparison. I can sit in my IS Heavy and pound on a Clan Medium, trading blows, and 100% of the time I will lose. Can you please address this?



Wait til after the quirk pass Nov 4. I dont mean to sound snarky, but bringing up balance issues when there are SPECIFIC changes in the pipeline to address balance issues is counterproductive and wastes everyone's time.

#182 Corralis

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 05:41 AM

View PostWyzak, on 24 October 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

This concern has probably been addressed, but the wording of your initial post suggests factioned players would be locked out of using battlemechs from opposing factions. I presume that this does not affect our ability to bring whatever mech we want to the non-community warfare queues?


Well I don't know about specific faction inside the IS but Paul did say that if you were fighting for the IS you would not be able to fight with Clan Mech's in CW and visa versa. Outside of CW you can bring whatever you like.

#183 Jetfire

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 06:00 AM

Ok, if I understand the faction rewards correctly I think it makes perfect sense.

Say my unit decides to up with Davion for 2 months and unlock some skins, titles and colors. Then our next contract we flip to the clans. I can still wear my Davion colors right away but I should quickly demolish my Davion rep and be barred from wearing those skins, titles and colors. The reasons being A. the clans aren't going to want me wearing them and B. Davion sure isn't going to keep supplying me with materials to repaint my mech.

Or consider a scenario in which I instead change from one IS faction to another that is friendly or neutral to the first. Now I should be able to keep wearing my old rewards as well as earn new ones because my faction rep with the first just takes the initial hit for leaving.

This all makes perfect sense. Why would you expect to see clans running around in Steiner general skins with steiner titles and colors. You might be able to do it once or twice, but then your rep is going to shut it off until you go back to Steiner and earn back your rep.

#184 Sprouticus

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:02 AM

View PostWyzak, on 24 October 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

This concern has probably been addressed, but the wording of your initial post suggests factioned players would be locked out of using battlemechs from opposing factions. I presume that this does not affect our ability to bring whatever mech we want to the non-community warfare queues?



Force specific mech seleciton (clan/IS) will be for CW only.

#185 Moridan

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:02 AM

View PostSprouticus, on 24 October 2014 - 05:29 AM, said:



Wait til after the quirk pass Nov 4. I dont mean to sound snarky, but bringing up balance issues when there are SPECIFIC changes in the pipeline to address balance issues is counterproductive and wastes everyone's time.


I hate to say it, but the quirk info has already been released on reddit and the changes will not even be close to bringing IS mechs equivilant to Clan mechs. Not by a long shot.

#186 Sprouticus

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:21 AM

View PostMoridan, on 24 October 2014 - 08:02 AM, said:


I hate to say it, but the quirk info has already been released on reddit and the changes will not even be close to bringing IS mechs equivilant to Clan mechs. Not by a long shot.


opinions vary. You may be right (although I personally think it will do a lot to balance things but come up a wee bit short). If so, PGI can nerf clan stuff again, raise the clan XL engine penalty, or tweak the IS quirks.

Even the most pessimistic amongst us have to see that PGI is being much more aggressive with balancing since Russ took over. Well maybe not, but those of us who are reasonable and not being emo whiners do.

#187 Moridan

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:38 AM

Every outcome of every match I have playing in over the last couple of weeks has been determined by the number of clan mechs per side. Since my unit is expecting to be playing as IS, we have been practicing a long those lines. And that is with a split on each team. Imagine 12 IS vs 12 Clan...

#188 Hoax415

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 08:56 AM

Well I see the thread has devolved into people who refuse to accept that we just don't know enough of the finer details to worry about things arguing about their own personal interpretation of what little we do know. Oh that and people making fools of themselves.

View Postk05h3lk1n, on 23 October 2014 - 03:28 PM, said:

I think you shouldn't forbid Clan or IS Mech use based on faction choice. I want to play *all* my mechs in *all* game-modes. I understand the lore implications but, tbh, that doesn't do much for me.

Well you are in luck! If Lore doesn't matter then you can just ignore CW and play all your mechs however you like. If you want to try the Invasion game mode when it comes out you'll have to pick a side. Just take a 1-month contract and swap it to the other side when its up. Lore doesn't matter so who cares? There are a lot of posts like this. If you don't care at all about lore, then don't worry about the details of CW. Its not going to be an extra fun game experience for people who "don't care" because with MM turned off and people playing much more to win the games are going to be a lot more tense, serious and tryhard with less balance between you and your opposition.


View PostLogan Hawke, on 23 October 2014 - 04:58 PM, said:

I was referring more to your earlier comments, but as far as that specific one goes, well, have you spent any money on this game? Got a favorite hero mech or warhorn that you really like to use above all else? Well too bad, it breaks someone's immersion so you can't use it anymore.

Great news bro! If you earn any cosmetic unlock there's no reason you would "lose" it in normal queue no matter what you do faction wise in CW later. Since you don't care about immersion or lore you can just farm LP, get the stuff you want and then go back to normal queue and you can pilot clan mechs in davion colors with davion banners hanging in your cockpit all day!

View PostNick Makiaveli, on 23 October 2014 - 05:34 PM, said:

I too would like more info in permanent faction choice and contracts. I'm assuming it will be a monthly award, but larger than the pro-rated amount given to the shorter contracts?

There are a lot of ways they can "balance" the positives of permanent membership with the flexibility of temp contracts. We'll have to wait and see. This was one of the few posts in the last 5 pages that reflected just how little we actually know about the details.

View PostKageru Ikazuchi, on 23 October 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Interesting ... I'm reading the OP differently ... I don't see the LP as currency, so much as a score measuring your reputation with the faction.

I don't think that all of the rewards are things that are necessarily purchased, but are unlocked by having a certain level of demonstrated loyalty for a particular faction (if you leave the faction, you lose some of that loyalty).

Maybe I'm reading it wrong ...

You aren't wrong but it can't be a purely unlock system right? Afterall permanent faction players in theory will never lose LP for their faction so there have to be things to spend LP on or what's the point? I doubt PGI has fully mapped this system out, its not like they aren't telling us because its a secret, they just haven't figured out how the entire system will interface with everything else.

It could be something like Faction Ranks/Titles/Cosmetics are unlocked as long as you have enough LP but you can also spend LP for various CW bonuses (better turrets for instance) or maybe even to permanently buy things you normally unlock so you can use them outside of CW in normal queue. Nobody knows yet.

View PostLogan Hawke, on 23 October 2014 - 07:03 PM, said:

'why am I playing CW?' and 'do I get any rewards signifying that I worked hard in CW that last?' :/

And this invalidates all of your complaining in this thread. If you only would play CW if the rewards are good enough. You don't care about CW. People who care about it would play for zero rewards because they care about the RP/Lore/persistence aspects. They think that it makes the game feel less arena lobby+game shooter and gives more meaning to the battles. If its only about what rewards you earn, don't worry there will be some and you'll think some are worth it and others are stupid. But please don't **** up CW threads if you aren't really a player who cares about anything but what will LP's give you.

View PostEboli, on 23 October 2014 - 10:50 PM, said:

I am in complete agreement with Bishop here. The more I read the more I see Unit Leaders and Comp. players wanting to push the game towards aspects which suit them and not the majority of the less serious players. Stating what times CW should be played, match making control, whom chooses what planets to attack, ownership of planets, what beginning/new players should see (ex. Modules) etc.

You should probably stay off Bishop's island. The things you have listed (except the modules comment, which is something I'm unfamiliar with) has nothing to do with "comp" teams.

In actuality the limited time windows are to "protect" the solo queue and keep it up and running alongside CW. Its also to protect CW from having problems where there aren't enough players for it to function well. Sitting on a planet watching a timer hit zero and getting a free win isn't fun. So to reduce that CW is a special timed mode and certain points in the day. Obviously how much time and when will have to be worked out so that almost everyone feels they have an opportunity to participate but that has nothing at all to do with "comp" players or the "comp scene" which is all of maybe 20 teams if that.

The rest of your list shows a basic lack of understanding of what we know so far about CW systems. I mean who do you think determines which planets are contested? How does PGI doing that mean comp teams are involved?

Ownership of planets goes to units. I bet that some of the larger or more organized units that have comp teams will show up as owning some planets. Are you suggesting that RNG should award planet control? That way good players aren't "favored"?

View PostWyzak, on 24 October 2014 - 01:18 AM, said:

This concern has probably been addressed, but the wording of your initial post suggests factioned players would be locked out of using battlemechs from opposing factions. I presume that this does not affect our ability to bring whatever mech we want to the non-community warfare queues?

No restrictions of any kind will bleed over from CW to public queues. That is counter to the entire point.

View PostJetfire, on 24 October 2014 - 06:00 AM, said:

Ok, if I understand the faction rewards correctly I think it makes perfect sense.

Yes its not a very crazy or out there system. We haven't even gotten the details. Its very possible that if you "unlock" colors you will be able to use them regardless of your LP. Instead we would expect things like faction ranks, faction titles, faction cammos, faction cockpit stuff, faction warhorns etc. To not be usable if you leave the faction IN CW. One would think that PGI will let you purchase/unlock (whatever it is) with LP those things and then use them whenever you want, whichever faction you are, whatever mech you want in PUBLIC QUEUE. Just not in CW where the lore is kind of the point.

Edited by Hoax415, 24 October 2014 - 09:00 AM.


#189 Logan Hawke

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 09:25 AM

View PostHoax415, on 24 October 2014 - 08:56 AM, said:

-sarcastic strawman rambling-


Have fun there on your 'island', champ. Hope your own nametag doesn't break your immersion.



OT:

The problem with a lack of permanent unlocks is that CW has to retain a large playerbase to actually be CW, with all the competition and challenges and warfare it entails. Now sure, with no real rewards for people that want to play different sides, or mercs, or people who have a falling out with their group but have been hard working players you might retain a few thousand players in total for a long term period. But to actually have a healthy, fun, and fleshed out experience there needs to be plenty of players so that things actually seem big and explosive. Kowtowing to the wishes of extreme hard liners is going to accomplish the opposite of that. Will CW still exist if that happens? Yeah, sure. Will it be as great as it could be? No.

#190 DocBach

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 09:45 AM

View PostLogan Hawke, on 24 October 2014 - 09:25 AM, said:

Kowtowing to the wishes of extreme hard liners is going to accomplish the opposite of that. Will CW still exist if that happens? Yeah, sure. Will it be as great as it could be? No.


Totally agree, I was so put off by the hardline Star Wars dorks that made it so I couldn't play the Star Wars MMO's as a Wookie Jedi Stormtrooper, I quit playing them altogether. And don't get me started on that failure that's World of Warcraft. When I found out I couldn't be a human member of the horde, I made a bunch of posts on their forums and quit the next day. Last I checked their game was totally failing because of the {Godwin's Law} restrictions they put on factions that nobody wants or can deal with.\

PGI I beg you, listen to this man and his wisdom! Players of your game don't want a community warfare that brings life to a 30 year old franchise where faction decisions carry any weight or consequence -- they want an open arena based game where you switch factions at a whim to earn really cool loot like paint jobs!

Edited by DocBach, 24 October 2014 - 09:50 AM.


#191 Logan Hawke

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 10:14 AM

View PostDocBach, on 24 October 2014 - 09:45 AM, said:

-more sarcastic strawman rambling-


I'm sorry that you never figured out you were able to make multiple characters on one account so you could have all those things. It's really quite tragic you never grasped it. And I'm sorry you can't wrap your mind around how both losing all your earned loyalty points as well as committing to your faction choice to a set amount of time where you cannot leave is not 'on a whim'. Mostly I'm sorry that I'm bored and decided to respond to your trolling.

Truly I am, it would make this debate so much clearer.

#192 DocBach

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 10:25 AM

Unfortunately, making more than one account is impossible to do in mwo.

#193 Logan Hawke

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 10:54 AM

View PostDocBach, on 24 October 2014 - 10:25 AM, said:

-mmmm sarcasm continues. delicious-


Quite the contrary in fact. However, you cannot store all of your information on the same account, nor can you store all of your purchases there nor can you use one account to control everything as you can in the games you said nor can you use just one email for all of them.

Edited by Logan Hawke, 24 October 2014 - 10:54 AM.


#194 Hoax415

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:01 AM

TIL,

Directly quoting someone and responding to that DIRECT QUOTE is basically the same as creating a strawman argument. :rolleyes:

Do the world a favor Logan Hawke and only use terms you actually understand from now on.

Edited by Hoax415, 24 October 2014 - 11:03 AM.


#195 DocBach

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:15 AM

View PostLogan Hawke, on 24 October 2014 - 10:14 AM, said:


Truly I am, it would make this debate so much clearer.


What debate? You've been a member since November 2011 -- this game was advertised as being one that specifically brought the Battletech universe to life. That's one of the founding pillars. Concepts like factional loyalty and playing specific factions have been an idea that has existed as long as this game has been announced.

People have been flying their faction colors on their forum avatars for going on three years now, not because they're looking to unlock skins and move on, but because they've been loyal to these factions for longer than I've been alive.

In this Battletech universe, you don't swap teams without burning bridges -- Just like countless other games that do just fine that don't let you do that, or penalize you for it. You might have to lose some very specific paint jobs if you decide to flip flop. You won't lose stuff you paid real money for. The game isn't going to die because you can't change into your Steiner color paint job while you're a Clanner or you Davion paint job as a Kuritan.

This is a serious question: Do you think random players who never heard of this game who come in are going to care if they have to work to unlock paintjobs over as much as players who have been waiting for this game for 10+ years will care if community warfare doesn't provide a player with an immerse Battletech universe? Which one do you see putting in more money to PGI as a company?

#196 Tezcatli

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 11:39 AM

View PostRipper X, on 23 October 2014 - 12:20 PM, said:


I am not cool with grinding for rewards and then have them taken away because I switched a faction. If you unlocked something through grinding then it should be yours permanently.


Well the ranks make sense though. You wouldn't be able to hold a rank with Davion, if you're fighting for Kurita against Davion.


Besides. If you don't make some kind of penalty. Then factions are just pointless. They might as well just give it to you for signing up.

How can anyone take pride in being a Davion player if some "Gotta catch em all" person can get all the same rewards while playing on the side of the enemy!?

Edited by Tezcatli, 24 October 2014 - 11:41 AM.


#197 Ayrmoon

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 12:19 PM

Kageu Ikazuchi said - The reward for switching should be access to the new faction's rewards, the penalty for switching is that some things (not all) may be taken away. This reward and penalty system will go a long way towards keeping the factions balanced.

Merc Units however, will never get ahead or be able to keep up with those who are playing for only one house/fraction. Since Merc Units are not loyal to a house or fraction, but rather to the almighty C-Bill! So, by taking the best contract available, a Merc Unit hurts itself (and its members) as far as Loyalty Points are concerned.


Hoax415 wrote - A simple work around is for units to form a clan-version or IS-version of themselves that players can swap over to if they want to use the other types of mechs. Or individual players can just join a different unit. Or you can just play public queue games and drop in whatever the hell you want.

So your solution is for a member of a unit to leave the unit and join another unit whenever he/she wants to use an IS or Clan mech? Or leave the unit altogether and, using your words, "drop in whatever the hell you want"

Really? You really believe that this is an equitable solution? Your solution works against anyone ever belonging to an MWO unit?

Remember this is a game. Not a re-enactment of a BattleTech history. CW is not going to pay out the way the lore has it written. People pay a lot of money for the Mechs that they own and they are going to want to use them in-game. That includes using them in CW. PGI has to come up with code that will allow players to do that. Otherwise, they are going to lose money.

I didn't say it would be an easy thing to do, only that it needs to be looked at,
Ayrmoon

Edited by Ayrmoon, 24 October 2014 - 12:42 PM.


#198 DocBach

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 12:37 PM

View PostAyrmoon, on 24 October 2014 - 12:19 PM, said:


So your solution is for a member of a unit to leave the unit and join another unit whenever he/she wants to use an IS or Clan mech? Or leave the unit altogether and, using your words, "drop in whatever the hell you want"

Really? You really believe that this is an equitable solution? You solution works against anyone ever belonging to an MWO unit?



If you want to compare it to other games, think of the Clans and Inner Sphere as Alliance vs Horde -- they are mutually exclusive teams. If you want to be on a Clan team for CW, join a Clan group. If you want to drop with your friends, play the casual queue or private matches.

Edited by DocBach, 24 October 2014 - 12:37 PM.


#199 Logan Hawke

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 12:49 PM

View PostHoax415, on 24 October 2014 - 11:01 AM, said:

TIL,

Directly quoting someone and responding to that DIRECT QUOTE is basically the same as creating a strawman argument. :rolleyes:

Do the world a favor Logan Hawke and only use terms you actually understand from now on.


Oh, I understand quite well what a strawman argument is. Here, this might help you out since you don't seem to.

A straw man is a common type of argument and is an informal fallacy based on the misrepresentation of an opponent's argument.[1] To be successful, a straw man argument requires that the audience be ignorant or uninformed of the original argument.
The so-called typical "attacking a straw man" argument creates the illusion of having completely refuted or defeated an opponent's proposition by covertly replacing it with a different proposition (i.e., "stand up a straw man") and then to refute or defeat that false argument ("knock down a straw man") instead of the original proposition.[2][3]

View PostDocBach, on 24 October 2014 - 11:15 AM, said:

-thank you for replying seriously-


Some people are indeed that heavily invested in this game, I would never claim otherwise to that. And I've never claimed that there shouldn't be consequences for changing factions, there should and I understand that dedicated contracts and loss of LP don't seem like enough to people that want this to be as immersive as absolutely possible. And remember, this isn't a game like WoW or the Old Republic, it's a game like WoT and WT. Comparisons drawn between this and a dedicated MMORPG don't work because of the inherent differences between them (if you were able to make multiple 'pilots' on one account and have mechs for each of them ala clan wolf pilot has a timber and dire, Davion pilot has an enforcer and jager, etc we wouldn't be having this argument because that would quite literally solve all the problems with the system. But I don't think PGI is going to do that at this stage, it'd be too disruptive :( ).

The problem is when one of those consequences literally removes items you have spent time grinding for and spent earned resources on. Artificial barriers like that, while logical from a lore perspective, are illogical from a game perspective. If joining a faction started giving you access to all their goodies if you fought for them for a couple weeks it would be fine, because they're just giving them to you as a reward and will be taken away if you leave. You're not having to spend your hard earned resources on them, you're just spending time that you're also using to earn LPs and CBills so you're double tasking basically. The things that you buy with LPs should be yours to use forever. If that means that the things you buy aren't super faction specific that would be fine. Aka you can buy medals (because it's not like they take the physical medals away from you if you skedaddle), paint colors (not entire lore specific unit colorschemes, just the colors because you liked them and had your techs bring them along), special weapons (large lasers that fire in the purple spectrum of light for instance), and anything else you could feasibly steal/take/hijack/walk off with when you leave. Additionally, remember I'm a merc. I like shinies both in terms of Cbills and colorful paints/medals/toys/cockpit swag/whatever. Why wouldn't I keep a tattered Kuritan flag as a keepsake from when I fought for them? However, I would not keep a Genyosha unit camo (assuming I somehow fought alongside them) when I left, (though that brings questions of 'I thought they were a bunch of prissy samurai tryhards why not wear their colors when I fight them just to royally piss them off'?) because I would no longer be fighting alongside that unit. If I, say, had gotten a katana somewhere along the line why couldn't I keep that though? Do you see what I'm getting at? Things should be split between 'true loyalty gifts' and things you buy with 'loyalty points'. But just taking away things you bought with loyalty points? No go, that's not cool.

(Let me know if this was too rambly and I'll elaborate. Was holding a convo with my bf during my typing it)

Edited by Logan Hawke, 24 October 2014 - 12:53 PM.


#200 Ayrmoon

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Posted 24 October 2014 - 01:10 PM

DocBach wrote - “If you want to be on a Clan team for CW, join a Clan group.” Again, in my mind, not a good answer. Let me try to explain this another way.

I’m not looking at this as a lore issue, but rather a money or investment issue.

If I invest $300.00 in IS mechs AND invest $300.00 in Clan mechs, that means I have a $600.00 investment into the game. The future of this game is CW. That is where all the rewards are going to be, all the accomplishments, fun and focus going forward. Everything else, casual queues and private matches, are just practice for CW. (And of course competitive play, but that’s another topic).

Sticking with your logic, I lose half of my investment because I never get to use the other half of what I’ve bought for CW! If that were going to be the case from the very beginning, then PGI should have made everyone chose a side (IS or Clan) and have them buy only those mechs! If PGI doesn’t work on this issue, players will not buy certain mechs and PGI will lose that revenue OR get so feed up that they leave the game (hence, no future revenue at all!).

That is something that I do not want to see happen. I’ve enjoyed playing this game so far, but I’m really waiting to see what happens with CW. MWO has an opportunity for a great future. But not if it alienates its player base.

Ayrmoon





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