724 replies to this topic

[KraftySOT]

Cavale, on 25 October 2014 - 12:17 PM, said:

New earning model encourages Deathball.

Deathball or no pay.

This.

[Xetelian]

My concern is the change for kills being less than assists now being more than assists so the kill stealing atmosphere is encouraged.

That and damage done rewards if I do 504 damage on a loss I shouldn't just get 20,000 -loss 3600 -assist and 3000 for damage done. Barely making higher than 35,000 on a loss doesn't reward those of us that used consumables in an effort to be the better team and win.

This is punishing to consumables.

[Night Fury76]

All I can say is I feel adequately rewarded for my games atm.
If rewards were to stay as they were the day or two after the patch, I would not be playing anymore.

Would I like more, of course. But at least now I don't feel like I'm wasting my time.
Cheers

[MadPanda]

Here's something for you guys to chew on. Two games, same mech, both wins, similar stats, noticeable difference in c-bills. Which game you think should have earned more c-bills?

Game 1:



Game 2:

[SpeedingBus]

The game doesn't care how well you play anymore just if you hit any of the goals they set to give cbills. What they really should do is bring back the old kill/assist/damage cbill earnings and keep everything else the same so people who still do damage/kills/assist still get the same amount of ciblls and people are still rewarded for scouting ect.

[Postumus]

The problem with the discussion about the new rewards system is that the people who are making less (and there are a lot of them) think that the people who are making adequate and better money are the outliers (they might not be). It could be that the people who are getting good rewards are just representative of one legitimate playstyle, and that the people who are getting substandard rewards ALSO represent a legitimate playstyle, but do not have rewards currently implemented to reward that playstyle.

If you think that you are playing the game right for your mech, loadout and role, and that you are getting poor rewards for it, don't demand higher rewards overall, demand new rewards that fit playstyles that aren't currently rewarded. Buffing rewards overall just means the people playing to the current reward system get even more money, and others just get adequate money.

You can make a good argument that the current reward system is geared mostly towards short to mid range brawlers, who have high alpha damage to get kill shots easily. Sticking with the team constantly and running brawler builds is a good way to play, but it isn't the only way.

For example, light pilots who do the essential service of scouting for the team only get a couple small consolation rewards - one reward for the first time they (or anyone else) lock an enemy, and the Flanking and Hit and Run bonuses. These bonuses in no way add up to what the light pilot would get if they stuck with the main team and brawled, even though that isn't what lights are for. Notice, I do not mention NARC and TAG bonuses, because these aren't specific to light mechs, and they are only secondary to the scouting role, which is about providing information to the team. Remember "Information Warfare"? Light pilots should get their own specific set of rewards related to scouting, killing other light mechs, and killing or harassing mechs that have broken away from the main enemy body.

That is just an example for one viable playstyle that isn't brawling with the murderball. Instead of suggesting that the devs buff all rewards, suggest rewards that you feel fit other viable playstyles.

Edited by Postumus, 25 October 2014 - 01:41 PM.

[Sable Phoenix]

I don't disagree with your ideas, Postumus, in fact I think they ought to be implemented. But there ALSO needs to be a buff to ALL rewards. The earnings now are far too slow across the board.

[hybrid black]

Sable Phoenix, on 25 October 2014 - 11:25 AM, said:

So back in the day, when you won a match, you could often see the reward screen displaying between 150,000 and 200,000 C-bills. If you had a really good match you could hit 250,000. With a Hero mech bonus and first victory of the day bonus combined you could conceivably (but rarely) get up to 300,000.

This was fine. It gave a noticeable rate of progression and allowed player to purchase mechs and equipment at a decent rate.

Then C-bill earnings were nerfed. Hard. You would generally see about 100,000 C-bills per win. Really really good matches with bonuses could break 200,000, but this was rare. Overall, the average reduction in C-bills earned per match was about 40%. We were promised that a variety of new bonuses and categories would be introduced to support role warfare, and that these would balance out the reduction with additional ways to earn C-bills each match. Other than TAG/NARC bonus, these categories didn't materialize. The ability of players to acquire new mechs or equipment or customize the ones they had was slowed down significantly. Not a big deal for people who'd already accumulated tens or hundreds of million of C-bills, but for those who hadn't, especially for brand new players, customizing mechs became a painfully slow process.

Well, they never gave a time limit on the promise of additional ways to earn C-bills, so technically it has now been fulfilled. Sort of. With Community Warfare on the horizon, we finally have more categories to earn C-bills with -- protecting friendlies, staying in formation, etc., etc.-- but unfortunately, rather than adding to the total amount of C-bills we can earn per match, the existing C-bill amount has just been split up among a bunch of new categories. The result? Average earnings per match have dropped. Again. Now a win will frequently net less than 100,000 C-bills. Really good games don't even get you to 200,000 most of the time. I'd estimate the average earnings have dropped about 20% from where they were before the new CW-based categories were patched in.

This is unacceptable. Post C-bill nerf, you could expect it to take you about 10 games, wins and losses, to earn 1 million C-bills. If you're shooting for an expensive chassis, let's say 8 million C-bills, that's 80 games to earn 1 mech. That doesn't even count customizing it, which increases the cost by 50 to 100% (Endo, Dual HS, possibly an XL engine upgrade, maxing armor, any additional ammo, etc), and keep in mind this customizing is required to make the chassis competetive. This makes it almost 160 games just to earn one expensive playable mech.

And now, with all the new ways to earn C-bills, ways that were supposed to make thing better, it's even worse. C-bill earnings should probably be doubled across the board. Earning C-bills is just painfully slow now, and will only serve as a turnoff to people new to the game.

Disclaimer: none of these numbers have been datamined, they're based on empirical first-hand observation and estimations.

my bad wins are 200k+ my good wins push 500k a bad loss 60k a good loss pushes 200k.....
i see no problems with this......

maybe get better scrub is all that can be said?

[KraftySOT]

MadPanda, on 25 October 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Here's something for you guys to chew on. Two games, same mech, both wins, similar stats, noticeable difference in c-bills. Which game you think should have earned more c-bills?

Game 1:



Game 2:

The one with more formation bonuses, turret kills, and probably capture assists.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

hybid black,

You ain't gonna have scrubs to get your good matches on the backs of if they do not do something about the horrible grind. It is one of the big reasons we have such a small player base. They play for a bit. And then realize how long or how much it will take to get competitive and just leave..

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 25 October 2014 - 01:50 PM.

[Solidussnake]

I agree, 60 ~ 200 matches to buy 1 assault mech is stupid. 400 ~ 800 damage a match earning 120~150k is stupid. You'll never keep players when they realize they have to put 10 hours a day of playing to get anywhere.

[Mr Beefy]

Xetelian, on 25 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

The realy pain is the 3,500 from 6000 for assists and the payout for damage done is lower.

Taking kills rewards more than assists now but it was reverse of that before and that was a better system for mindset that encouraged getting assists over kills and now we have kill stealing.

Hmmm.....you might be on to something with this one, but let me suggest what the bigger problem is and why it is a problem that will not change unless....

The old system and the higher reward for an assist did not encourage getting them....except for the ones that are so C-bill hungry, they would fly in with a light, hit everything they can, then die and drop, flush/rinse/repeat. Or the ones that stay back, hit with PPC or LLasers and do 1 damage to each and every mech in the match.... Guess what.... tweek any of the the rewards in one way or another and many will exploit it, Why you ask??

That's what everyone should be asking, and PGI has to know by now.... the serious lack of decent C-bills/XP/GXP earnings every match, a base line amount AVG., you know you can achieve given your style of play and what role one is good at to contribute to one's team. I think everyone could agree in the old system, a 30-50% increase was and has been in order for a very long time.

So Veteran Players, and even the guy playing his 26th match shouldn't play a avg/decent match trying to team play and after figuring the numbers if he avg.s X amount c-bills over Y matches played, I will have to play the amount of Z matches to obtain that Storm crow I want. But wait, I need three chassis to master one, so things just got three times as expensive, three times the amount of grind. Then the grind is on in XP/GXP to master them. This should be a reasonable amount of time, not a mountain to climb that if you are lucky and decent as a pilot that works as a team, it won't take more than 4-7 days worth of play, 11-24 hours of play maybe?... for you to purchase those three storm crows and have the trees mastered. This is just for a Medium chassis.... you want a heavy or assault mech.... time needed goes up to get the earnings need to obtain them the same as ALL mech chassis, or down for lights because mech prices stay the same they are now.

I think this is a fair amount of grind, and it would really start to get rid of the C-bill, XP, GXP farmers, all the players that make C-bill earnings the highest priority, even if it means not getting the win, or lack of working to obtain the primary objectives PGI puts in the game mode for the match played. It takes away the lust for C-bills like we have right now, and always have, and will always have till this drought is gone. This is counter productive, because this makes so many in the player base, new and veteran play the game only for C-bills.


30-50% increase will solve this key problem and can any of you say you would still care if they just made all roles equal, except for solo kills? Who would really care, because everyone's earnings are up to a fair level vs the painful old grind needed to obtain them. Now it would just be a long grind. If you play very well now, and are a skilled pilot, you do even better by the same amount. This gets rid of C-bill lust and exploiting I bet by 80% in less than a week.

Now PGI can focus on giving us game modes.... real game modes, more depth than we have right now. They reward a extra bonus of 75-100K for achieving a primary objective in a given game mode. You guys develop something deep, something with real content and reward us for really achieving it in a given mode and the objective based on its importance. This is the only way we will get back to a thinking mans shooter game vs. the Death ball we have right now. If they just applied this to the only two game modes we have right now, Conquest for a cap win, and Assault base raid take or defend, we would see a big drop in players that do not focus on true team play based on being so starved for C-bills, they will do anything in game to get them.

It really is Win, Win for all.... I am not gonna say sales and new players will boom over night...but this would have to increase over time for PGI, because as scary as a concept this may be for PGI to trust or understand, I believe many will want to buy MC, Mech bays, colors, and patterns instead of cringing every time we look at the prices of everything.

It would increase the very big ball of love that many are riding on right now with a new turning of the leaf that has felt great here lately! A Happy player base loves to spend money when they can and will be more likely to budget money towards what they love in hard times, and even more money in good times.

[LordKnightFandragon]

MadPanda, on 25 October 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Here's something for you guys to chew on. Two games, same mech, both wins, similar stats, noticeable difference in c-bills. Which game you think should have earned more c-bills?

Game 1:



Game 2:

This EXACTLY.....what the hell is this!? The new rewards system really needs some work....

Pre new rewards system, that 1st game, I had one similar, scored near 200K Cbills and like 4K xp..

in the 1st game, did you not TAG and NARC enough?

Edited by LordKnightFandragon, 25 October 2014 - 01:57 PM.

[MadPanda]

KraftySOT, on 25 October 2014 - 01:48 PM, said:

The one with more formation bonuses, turret kills, and probably capture assists.

Neither of the games is conquest, and formation bonus is 60cbills per tick so I don't know why you even mention that. But you really think meeting random goals should earn you more than being in the fight and dishing out damage to your enemies? I think you are pretty alone with that opinion.

[Lukoi Banacek]

Since the patch rewards hotfix, I've played 63 solo queue matches and none in group (where I tend to see better earnings).

My xp/match average is virtually identical (it's gone up 0.90 which is statistically irrelevant really) and my c-bill/game average has gone up 1k.

I don't TAG, narc, use LRMs (I have two LRM principal mechs out of my 132 mechs and do not "franken" my others with an LRM-5 etc).

I'd say the jury is still out but I'm less concerned about long time whales such as myself (I've got plenty of cash so if my earnings suffer I don't really feel it). My real concern is the newer player experience and player retention. While I'm not suffering a downturn as OP apparently is, I feel like the rewards are probably VERY tough on new players and on people who solo primarily. Bad wins really hurt (especially if you try to win with a consumable or two and still lose badly, which happens plenty) and Good wins while really nice, might not be common enough for new/solo players.

[KraftySOT]

MadPanda, on 25 October 2014 - 01:56 PM, said:

Neither of the games is conquest, and formation bonus is 60cbills per tick so I don't know why you even mention that. But you really think meeting random goals should earn you more than being in the fight and dishing out damage to your enemies? I think you are pretty alone with that opinion.

Its 120 cb, per 5 seconds. (thats 7200 before premium for 4 minutes of being with your lance) If youre also procing Proximity, and Protection, thats over 24k cbills just for being in the deathball.

Youre simply doing it wrong, im getting 300k+ with similar kills/assists/damage.

Edited by KraftySOT, 25 October 2014 - 02:04 PM.

[KraftySOT]

And all of you underestimating the Lance formation bonus piss me right the hell off.

Even when it was 60 cbs...

Ill team kill you if you start running off on your own. Because ill make more than 10k from it by the end of the match. So screw you. Youre simply not going to stand between me and SpaceRich.

Im just weeks away from my Richer than Blake Achievement and im a Freeloader. Never spent a dime.

Youre doing it wrong.

Edited by KraftySOT, 25 October 2014 - 02:07 PM.

[Bartholomew bartholomew]

KraftySOT, on 25 October 2014 - 02:05 PM, said:

And all of you underestimating the Lance formation bonus piss me right the hell off.

Even when it was 60 cbs...

Ill team kill you if you start running off on your own. Because ill make more than 10k from it by the end of the match. So screw you. Youre simply not going to stand between me and SpaceRich.

here is the future of Cbill farming. Just what PGI should have thought of first before changing things.

Edited by Bartholomew bartholomew, 25 October 2014 - 02:12 PM.

[Mr Beefy]

Postumus, on 25 October 2014 - 01:40 PM, said:

The problem with the discussion about the new rewards system is that the people who are making less (and there are a lot of them) think that the people who are making adequate and better money are the outliers (they might not be). It could be that the people who are getting good rewards are just representative of one legitimate playstyle, and that the people who are getting substandard rewards ALSO represent a legitimate playstyle, but do not have rewards currently implemented to reward that playstyle.

If you think that you are playing the game right for your mech, loadout and role, and that you are getting poor rewards for it, don't demand higher rewards overall, demand new rewards that fit playstyles that aren't currently rewarded. Buffing rewards overall just means the people playing to the current reward system get even more money, and others just get adequate money.

You can make a good argument that the current reward system is geared mostly towards short to mid range brawlers, who have high alpha damage to get kill shots easily. Sticking with the team constantly and running brawler builds is a good way to play, but it isn't the only way.

For example, light pilots who do the essential service of scouting for the team only get a couple small consolation rewards - one reward for the first time they (or anyone else) lock an enemy, and the Flanking and Hit and Run bonuses. These bonuses in no way add up to what the light pilot would get if they stuck with the main team and brawled, even though that isn't what lights are for. Notice, I do not mention NARC and TAG bonuses, because these aren't specific to light mechs, and they are only secondary to the scouting role, which is about providing information to the team. Remember "Information Warfare"? Light pilots should get their own specific set of rewards related to scouting, killing other light mechs, and killing or harassing mechs that have broken away from the main enemy body.

That is just an example for one viable playstyle that isn't brawling with the murderball. Instead of suggesting that the devs buff all rewards, suggest rewards that you feel fit other viable playstyles.

Some vary valid points.... I agree with you. One concern, what would be the problem with getting decent pay every game for all?, even if they, or even you get better over time start making Higher also? Isn't one saying and defending the stance its not fair to us that have done the painful grind, just as petty as saying it won't be fair because they will get so much more. Who cares as long as it just turns it into a "Long but reasonable grind for New and veterans alike, with some who really work as team make much more." Everyone wins, and we all LOVE PGI, its fair, its reasonable, and it most certainly isn't FREE.

I bet within a week of it going into effect, we will instantly all start having better games, more team play, people wanting to work as teams vs. many out exploiting/farming, cutting their team mates necks style play that we see in 80% of games that are being played as of now in pugs. This will work, and it would be a positive way to bring change, without huge rage rollback requests in the forums and amongst the player base. I think it would also lessen many other types of nerf request, and just general rage for that matter. Win Win for all, not just some

Edited by Mr Beefy, 25 October 2014 - 03:00 PM.

[Vassago Rain]

MadPanda, on 25 October 2014 - 01:24 PM, said:

Here's something for you guys to chew on. Two games, same mech, both wins, similar stats, noticeable difference in c-bills. Which game you think should have earned more c-bills?

Game 1:



Game 2:

Now that's some quality there, bro.

Just wait for a random gold to tell you you weren't deathballing hard enough/not exploiting TAG/massing LRMs properly.