724 replies to this topic

[SpeedingBus]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

And frankly PGI doesnt care about you, they care about Vassago.

Its crazy, but they do. Thats who they want to please right now. If they can get Vassago to like this game and be positive, theyre on the right track. He's a great measuring stick if not lethargic. If he's pissed, youre really screwing up.

However this has absolutely nothing to do with Cbill payouts, which are fine, if you have some idea wtf youre doing and wont just shove your head in the sand screaming "I WANT TO BE REWARDED FOR PLAYING THE WAY I PLAY, I HAVE TWO HOURS A WEEK TO PLAY AND I WANT A DIREWOLF MASTERED FOR FREE IN TWO HOURS OR I QUIT!!!"

Sigh coming up with more Hyperbole not a single person in this 25 page thread has said that but you know delude yourself into thinking that. Your arguments became so less valid when you make up stuff what we have been arguing is at the current rate of cbills acquiring 3 chassis would take a month of playing which is awful for newbies and veterans alike.

[KraftySOT]

Vassago Rain, on 27 October 2014 - 09:17 AM, said:

Actually, back in closed and early open beta, the game had a much larger population than it does now, and they were running on a lot more of IGP's hardware. There were even plans for them to expand to region specific servers, so pings could be brought down across the board, but by the time that came up again, as we all know by now, the pop had sank like a lead atlas.

They would routinely give out the hypest numbers for big sales items, like the highlander hero, how many hero mechs were killed during event X, when they hit 1 million accounts total made, and so on.

Such is life in the inner sphere.

For comparison purposes, the by now actually ancient utopia, a 1998 browser game with no graphics or anything, commands some 7500 players to return for each ladder reset.

Oh 23k people played Cataclysms new version over the weekend (think dwarf fortress, with zombies, in the modern world) Im not saying its not sad, or that there werent more people in the CB days. Frankly we've taken a nose dive since CB ( I mean...inverse kinematics...what happened? why remove something you paid for?) and the player count reflects that.

However, on a shorter time scale, between January of 2014 and now. We've gone up. Ditching IGP, and asking all of you back, and trying to make the right steps, has brought some people back, and sent some packing too. However there is a net increase or they wouldnt have hit hte server wall.

Can the game be bigger and better? Absolutely...but both you and I know that has to do with game mechanics, and not cbill payouts. Or "the grind".

Thats a given for the business model, and thats not changing. What actually needs 24 pages of posts, is game mechanics. Not peoples dissatisfaction with the brand of free cake theyre getting.

SpeedingBus, on 27 October 2014 - 09:21 AM, said:

Sigh coming up with more Hyperbole not a single person in this 25 page thread has said that but you know delude yourself into thinking that. Your arguments became so less valid when you make up stuff what we have been arguing is at the current rate of cbills acquiring 3 chassis would take a month of playing which is awful for newbies and veterans alike.

No it isnt.

I bought 3 shadow hawks for 9 mill, mastered them, sold them, for a total of 4 million actually spent (I kept the XL) after I sold them back.

Thats a single saturday afternoon.

Get over yourself.

[Assiah]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 27 October 2014 - 09:20 AM, said:

"I would love to spend money on your service but you pricing is just not reasonable so I haven't."

"Why would I listen to you? You haven't spent any money on my service!"

threads over guys, alex wins with best post.

[Vassago Rain]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 27 October 2014 - 09:16 AM, said:

No, it really isn't. The 'core' you mean, the hardcore competitive crowd, is almost never the majority of the playerbase. You have to find a way to keep them engaged while also catering to the majority, who are the more important portion.

It doesn't matter at all what PGI does if there's not enough people playing the game. The hardcore crowd and the whales will never be enough to keep the game going. You need new players and you need them to stick around or there is no game.

If you look at games like hawken, that lost their core players (not tiny handful of competitive hardcore players) in favor of a more casual, broad playerbase (for real), then you'll see why it's a bad idea to ignore your most loyal customers.

They used to have what we have, which is to say, people running events, guilds, making tools, youtubing, streaming, podcasting, creating art, and so on, but after adhesive largely assassinated that part of the community, they found that it was impossible to even get new players in, as there was now no core to attract them, show them, teach them, or hype them up.

Hawken hasn't seen a patch since may, by the way, and the game's down to less than 400 players at any given time. Now, imagine an MWO without all the forumwarriors, personalities in-game, the podcasts, youtubes, comstar's TS, NGNG's TS, various house teamspeaks and mumbles, smurfy's mechlab, sarna...and that's what it would be like here if the core left for other games.

[Joseph Mallan]

PV Phoenix, on 27 October 2014 - 08:36 AM, said:

His orders? What is this boot camp? This is a GAME if he wants to go rambo in a way that hurts his team then he should be punished solely on the fact that he contributed to a loss. Much more should be weighed on win or loss as good playstyles that win will thrive while bad ones that lose will die out. It really is as simple as that when you are dealing with this much diversity.

There comes a point when you need to accept that punishing new players heavily for the sake of "playing the right playstyle" is never going to grow the game population. Lack of diversity stagnates games and this new rewards system has stagnated it considerably. Especially when this forced playstyle revolves around huddling close and behind teammates with tag and narc and stealing kills while shooting teammates in the back if they get between you and your kill. I do not see this as something that should be encouraged. Is it a legitimate playstyle? Yes. Should all other playstyles suffer to accommodate it? NO. New players (and many veterans) that do not like playing tagwarrior will leave as nobody wants to waste their time here earning nothing.

All the pay system does now is pay you more if you are close to your team. Other than that I haven't changed anything. I still assist more than kill, I still die A LOT. and I am in a Brawler build AC20 Medium lasers and SRMs, and I am making more money than ever just by staying with my lance better.

[Assiah]

Vassago Rain, on 27 October 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

If you look at games like hawken, that lost their core players (not tiny handful of competitive hardcore players) in favor of a more casual, broad playerbase (for real), then you'll see why it's a bad idea to ignore your most loyal customers.

They used to have what we have, which is to say, people running events, guilds, making tools, youtubing, streaming, podcasting, creating art, and so on, but after adhesive largely assassinated that part of the community, they found that it was impossible to even get new players in, as there was now no core to attract them, show them, teach them, or hype them up.

Hawken hasn't seen a patch since may, by the way, and the game's down to less than 400 players at any given time. Now, imagine an MWO without all the forumwarriors, personalities in-game, the podcasts, youtubes, comstar's TS, NGNG's TS, various house teamspeaks and mumbles, smurfy's mechlab, sarna...and that's what it would be like here if the core left for other games.

yeah its a fine line, you need to both please your existing customers as well as try to entice new customers to come in a try your product. I personally think PGI is dropping the ball on the getting new customers in and staying, but lets not advocate for disregarding the core.

[SpeedingBus]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Oh 23k people played Cataclysms new version over the weekend (think dwarf fortress, with zombies, in the modern world) Im not saying its not sad, or that there werent more people in the CB days. Frankly we've taken a nose dive since CB ( I mean...inverse kinematics...what happened? why remove something you paid for?) and the player count reflects that.

However, on a shorter time scale, between January of 2014 and now. We've gone up. Ditching IGP, and asking all of you back, and trying to make the right steps, has brought some people back, and sent some packing too. However there is a net increase or they wouldnt have hit hte server wall.

Can the game be bigger and better? Absolutely...but both you and I know that has to do with game mechanics, and not cbill payouts. Or "the grind".

Thats a given for the business model, and thats not changing. What actually needs 24 pages of posts, is game mechanics. Not peoples dissatisfaction with the brand of free cake theyre getting.




No it isnt.

I bought 3 shadow hawks for 9 mill, mastered them, sold them, for a total of 4 million actually spent (I kept the XL) after I sold them back.

Thats a single saturday afternoon.

Get over yourself.

Please you have such a big ego congrats you did so everyone else can kind of logic. Its like an argument from a rich person wondering why poor people stay poor and don't make themselves rich because its so easy because they did it.

Edited by SpeedingBus, 27 October 2014 - 09:30 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Assiah, on 27 October 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

threads over guys, alex wins with best post.

See you all must just be young, or, have no life experience.

Ever eaten at a 5 star restaurant? Would you tell them, id love to spend money here but your prices are too high, please lower them so I can dine here?

If you would. Thats clearly whats wrong with you.

A five star restaurant isnt that great. Konomodos, Shitakis, these arent really better than your regular oysters or mushrooms. Youre not really getting a huge bang for your buck increase drinking a 90 year old glass of wine. Its over priced. It is. No one denies that.

It is however, only for a specific set of people, who dont care about the price. Does the eatery suffer because its barrier to entry is to high?

No.

PGI doesnt care that youd spend money if they lowered the prices or decreased the grind. Sure, youd spend money, but hte people who already would spend money, would just be spending less.

Youll just give up and go else where eventually. Then your money will be gone, and the deficit you created, will still exist.

No, you have to just tell people, these are what the prices are, pay them, or dont.

I would never, ever ever ever in my life, sell you one of my bands records cheaper, because you say the price is a barrier to entry. I dont care. Thats your own problem. You simply dont like it enough. Im not going to devalue my work, so you can come along. If you want to come along, youll do whatever it takes.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Vassago Rain, on 27 October 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

Now, imagine an MWO without all the forumwarriors, personalities in-game, the podcasts, youtubes, comstar's TS, NGNG's TS, various house teamspeaks and mumbles, smurfy's mechlab, sarna...and that's what it would be like here if the core left for other games.

Krafty's premise was that you should ignore new player retention in favor of catering to the 'core'. My point was that you cannot ONLY cater to the 'core' because then your game(/community) cannibalizes itself. Yes the 'core' is important (moreso here since PGI hasn't put any sort of in-universe fluff into the game itself) but them without new and/or free players is a recipe for doom.

[Vassago Rain]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 09:23 AM, said:

Oh 23k people played Cataclysms new version over the weekend (think dwarf fortress, with zombies, in the modern world) Im not saying its not sad, or that there werent more people in the CB days. Frankly we've taken a nose dive since CB ( I mean...inverse kinematics...what happened? why remove something you paid for?) and the player count reflects that.

However, on a shorter time scale, between January of 2014 and now. We've gone up. Ditching IGP, and asking all of you back, and trying to make the right steps, has brought some people back, and sent some packing too. However there is a net increase or they wouldnt have hit hte server wall.

Can the game be bigger and better? Absolutely...but both you and I know that has to do with game mechanics, and not cbill payouts. Or "the grind".

Thats a given for the business model, and thats not changing. What actually needs 24 pages of posts, is game mechanics. Not peoples dissatisfaction with the brand of free cake theyre getting.




No it isnt.

I bought 3 shadow hawks for 9 mill, mastered them, sold them, for a total of 4 million actually spent (I kept the XL) after I sold them back.

Thats a single saturday afternoon.

Get over yourself.

Well, here's the problem.

Game mechanics and content take time to develop, while upping income so people can experience more of what the game does have to offer (more robots, essentially), takes no time at all, and makes PGI look like they're generous and understand that no one wants to grind a billion hours for the monthly robot.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you've played a mere fraction of the game's robot selection, but if you could access more ot them, you'd play more, and likely talk some friends into dropping with you, because 'you can get those atlases you always wanted to try now, though.'



I'm not saying the game's got a rep as a grindy DM CS with robots F2P game, but yes, it totally does, and killing bad rep is good for business - especially when you're recovering from a mega failure to launch your other game.

[Mystere]

Mr Beefy, on 27 October 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

All of us that are making argument, (IMO, is not just whining/complaining) if done in a civil and constructive way, are bringing up very specific examples of why we believe the earnings for C-bills and XP/GXP need a 30-50% boost.

And as I have said in other posts, I believe it is better to increase the number and variety of rewarded actions to account for different playstyles, instead of just increasing earnings outright. The former will hopefully encourage and reinforce "good" behavior. The latter just reinforces the "bad".

[KraftySOT]

Vassago Rain, on 27 October 2014 - 09:24 AM, said:

If you look at games like hawken, that lost their core players (not tiny handful of competitive hardcore players) in favor of a more casual, broad playerbase (for real), then you'll see why it's a bad idea to ignore your most loyal customers.

They used to have what we have, which is to say, people running events, guilds, making tools, youtubing, streaming, podcasting, creating art, and so on, but after adhesive largely assassinated that part of the community, they found that it was impossible to even get new players in, as there was now no core to attract them, show them, teach them, or hype them up.

Hawken hasn't seen a patch since may, by the way, and the game's down to less than 400 players at any given time. Now, imagine an MWO without all the forumwarriors, personalities in-game, the podcasts, youtubes, comstar's TS, NGNG's TS, various house teamspeaks and mumbles, smurfy's mechlab, sarna...and that's what it would be like here if the core left for other games.

EXACTLY.

Will Mr Beefy ever run a guild or a tournament? Will SpeedingBus or Mactaggart?

NO.

Theyre casual fans. They arent going to dump 500 dollars here, or even 100 dollars. They arent going to make a fan website, or run leagues, or add to the community.

They just want MOAR CBILLS!!!

Vassago Rain, on 27 October 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Well, here's the problem.

Game mechanics and content take time to develop, while upping income so people can experience more of what the game does have to offer (more robots, essentially), takes no time at all, and makes PGI look like they're generous and understand that no one wants to grind a billion hours for the monthly robot.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and say that you've played a mere fraction of the game's robot selection, but if you could access more ot them, you'd play more, and likely talk some friends into dropping with you, because 'you can get those atlases you always wanted to try now, though.'



I'm not saying the game's got a rep as a grindy DM CS with robots F2P game, but yes, it totally does, and killing bad rep is good for business - especially when you're recovering from a mega failure to launch your other game.

I dont disagree, the problem though is, how do you then, once the game mechanics are fixed over time, LOWER the cbill payout because "now the game is worth it"

Then you get another exodus and #savemwo.

(ive actually played a crapton. Ive never spent any money and have my Richer than Blake achievement. Ive played almost everything, other than the total DOAs and clans (tho ive done the trial clans) and 80 million cbills sitting around collecting dust. Ive seen what the game has to offer, and I enjoy it...im actually with that guy, I dont see the value n spending money, other than the 45 I spent on the kickstarter to support the overall vision, which id do again currently, I just dont want any digital content for it, seems lame)

Edited by KraftySOT, 27 October 2014 - 09:33 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Assiah, on 27 October 2014 - 09:00 AM, said:

This is bait, but I'm going to bite anyway.

Did you ever consider that the grind is one of the reasons these mythical "ten thousand" players think that the game currently sucks, or that punishing them for wanting to use valid tactics that aren't deathballing is one of their reasons claiming the game sucks. You don't speak for every battletech fan, so please stop trying.

A valid tactic is staying in formation with your lance and mass fire on an enemy. Doing that has increased my income.
Imagine that.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

PGI doesnt care that youd spend money if they lowered the prices or decreased the grind. Sure, youd spend money, but hte people who already would spend money, would just be spending less.

PGI should care that we'd spend money. Considering that PGI's whole motive for making this game is to get people to pay them money.

And people would pay them more money if the prices were reasonable. Face it, MWO isn't a 5-star restaurant (AAA title). There are plenty of other options out there, most with an easier learning curve and more forgiving monetization scheme. Right now, PGI is Electronic Arts and MWO is the games on Origin, and Gabe Newell is sitting over there with Steam sale games in a giant pile of money.

[SpeedingBus]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

EXACTLY.

Will Mr Beefy ever run a guild or a tournament? Will SpeedingBus or Mactaggart?

NO.

Theyre casual fans. They arent going to dump 500 dollars here, or even 100 dollars. They arent going to make a fan website, or run leagues, or add to the community.

They just want MOAR CBILLS!!!




I dont disagree, the problem though is, how do you then, once the game mechanics are fixed over time, LOWER the cbill payout because "now the game is worth it"

Then you get another exodus and #savemwo.

So I have already proven you wrong by being a veteran founder so I gave money to PGI before I even played the game.. clearly I am a casual in your eyes and will never give PGI any money. Oh wait Krafty I already ******* did who would of thought it.

Edited by SpeedingBus, 27 October 2014 - 09:35 AM.

[KraftySOT]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 27 October 2014 - 09:29 AM, said:

Krafty's premise was that you should ignore new player retention in favor of catering to the 'core'. My point was that you cannot ONLY cater to the 'core' because then your game(/community) cannibalizes itself. Yes the 'core' is important (moreso here since PGI hasn't put any sort of in-universe fluff into the game itself) but them without new and/or free players is a recipe for doom.

Yeah feel free to worry about new players next year after CW.

You have guys who have been here for THREE YEARS with CW "released in a few months"

Man if you cant do that for those people, all the new players in the world dont amount to a hill of beans.

SpeedingBus, on 27 October 2014 - 09:33 AM, said:

So I have already proven you wrong by being a veteran founder so I gave money to PGI before I even played the game.. clearly I am a casual in your eyes.

Are you hosting leagues? Fan websites? Do you have a unit? Do you guys have unit nights? Make artwork? How are you supporting the community.

Thats my point. It doesnt matter if youre a founder, you can still be a casual player.

Pleasing the "core" is what grows the game. Not pleasing casual fans. They arent the ones out there writing reviews, working for websites, gaming mags, at cons, etc.

Thats a fact of life.

[Assiah]

Joseph Mallan, on 27 October 2014 - 09:32 AM, said:

A valid tactic is staying in formation with your lance and mass fire on an enemy. Doing that has increased my income.
Imagine that.

Did I claim it wasn't a valid tactic? No I claimed that it was not the only valid tactic. But as usual you put up a straw man to knock down rather than refute my actual claim. Imagine that.


Also am I the only one noticing the grand irony that Krafty, the self proclaimed freeloader who has never spent a cent in this game, is saying that PGI should listen to him and not us because we have not spent enough money on the game?

Edited by Assiah, 27 October 2014 - 09:38 AM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Mystere, on 27 October 2014 - 09:30 AM, said:

And as I have said in other posts, I believe it is better to increase the number and variety of rewarded actions to account for different playstyles, instead of just increasing earnings outright. The former will hopefully encourage and reinforce "good" behavior. The latter just reinforces the "bad".

Who cares? "Bad" behavior results in having a lower ELO, so "good" players will stop getting matched with them anyway.

Meanwhile that "bad" player is spending his free time to play the same video game you are. He is already being "punished' by playing badly, dying early in matches, and not getting all the additional cash you get for living. Why should his income be additionally reduced on top of that?

Basically, everyone has bad matches where the other team rolls you 12-3 even if you're a decent player yourself, so losing shouldn't be penalized.

[Joseph Mallan]

Mr Beefy, on 27 October 2014 - 09:15 AM, said:

One of my biggest issues with the "drama queens" if that is a word to define what is happening with some of the replies in this thread. Many of us have given " our opinions" as to why we are concerned with the old and present earnings punishing new and Veteran players alike unless they play by a list of points PGI puts forth to reward the "type of play" from players they think will help with motivating team play/role warfare.

All of us that are making argument, (IMO, is not just whining/complaining) if done in a civil and constructive way, are bringing up very specific examples of why we believe the earnings for C-bills and XP/GXP need a 30-50% boost.

Another 30-50% I'll be rolling in C-Bills in a week! To much money.

[Vassago Rain]

KraftySOT, on 27 October 2014 - 09:31 AM, said:

EXACTLY.

Will Mr Beefy ever run a guild or a tournament? Will SpeedingBus or Mactaggart?

NO.

Theyre casual fans. They arent going to dump 500 dollars here, or even 100 dollars. They arent going to make a fan website, or run leagues, or add to the community.

They just want MOAR CBILLS!!!




I dont disagree, the problem though is, how do you then, once the game mechanics are fixed over time, LOWER the cbill payout because "now the game is worth it"

Then you get another exodus and #savemwo.

Everything's overcosted in the game, anyway, and they need to overhaul the whole system for CW to work.

Or we're gonna have the lovely scenario where you farm freeplayer scum all day, because they don't have full masteries on everything, a bucket of modules, mechbays to house 30 mechs, or 2 years to farm GXP.

Just imagine. You go up against me and the rest of Kong in community warfare, with your account that was made in march this year. I personally have masteries on every IS mech released, excluding vindicators, jenners, and dragons, practically limitless c-bills, every module ever released unlocked, 39 mechbays, and it's largely the same for the rest of my guys.

How many c-bills total can you cram into your dropships? It's just unsustainable, and you can't even hope to stand against people possessing star league caches of equipment. It's like, PGI's expecting freeplayers to bring trialmechs in their dropships. How mad are you gonna be when freeplayers like that cost you planets, because they're too undergeared to fight properly?

As for casual freeplayers, without them, whales have no one to shoot. They're just as important as the whales. If you only have whales, you're no longer making a game, but a toy for a handful of rich, old men, who want to pretend they're mechwarriors from their childhood favorite IP.