724 replies to this topic

[KharnZor]

Mr Beefy, on 25 October 2014 - 04:33 PM, said:

Never! I don't want a dark side, for us as Veteran players, New players for sure and for PGI, the guys working on bringing us their and our game we all have waited for and support!

But its what they want.

[Shevy]

what i think we need is a "can opener" / "Armor destruction" bonus a small bonus for players that breach an enemy's armor

[Andi Nagasia]

i think they should be increased as well,
the main problem is they dropped Assists from 6500 to 3500,
so if you got 8 assists before, you made 52,000, helping a lot,
now you get 8 assists you get 28,000, if you lose only 48,000,

this problem is that Kills are worth so much to assists,
that if you not getting kills, or Narcing/Taging like a mad-man,
your not getting payed,

before i used to get 150000 for a win, and 70,000+ on a loss,
now i get 100,000 or just over for a win, and 40,000 for a loss,
im not the best player but i try(ECM & AMS support)

im abit worried how new players will feel just starting out,
right now its all to get kill* if your not killing, your not getting payed,
kills*= Kill(4k), Damage-kill(5k), tag-kill(6k), Narc-kill(6k), Savior-kill(4.5K),
where as Assists give 3500(down from 6500),

[LordKnightFandragon]

Lol, a win alone should pay 100K and 1000xp......

Losses, 25K, 250xp......

[Mr Beefy]

Livewyr, on 25 October 2014 - 04:31 PM, said:

That would be obtuse. 50% is much more reasonable... and it is here.



The previous system was flawed. When you could get rewards just for happening to get a savior kill (which was a LOT of reward) for accidentally dragging a laser across a mech who just happened to be dragging a laser over a mech that had critical damage...

It was getting cbills, without actually earning them. (rewarding someone for pretty much existing)

Now that that is no longer the case, they are having "sticker shock."



I am making more Cbills than I was before...because the earning potential increased.

It WAS roughly capped at getting assists (particularly accidentally or worse: purposely timed) "Savior" kills (assists) which inflated everyones' income. The only way to get higher was doing more damage...and that was the realm of assaults and heavies.

Your entire argument goes out the window with what I have listed the real problem with the already to low pay scale we had. Your dodging the entire point that it was a problem to begin with, and justifying a even lower pay grade to new players that will help by continued play, which is in fact a productive thing in our game, even if they only spend their time on it, and not much money.

They in turn have a positive experience, one where the player base is larger, and less toxic and on edge, because of a very big slap you in the face CORE reason. It explains bad game play, non team like game play, and exploiters that ruin all of our fun in game, (that is if you play to the objectives of a given match mode in the first place) OBJECTIVES should be primary concern on the players minds, not how they are gonna turn their next trick to get enough C-bills to get even half of the mechs that can be bought with out spending 8 hours a day 7 days a week on this game.

We get it, you are happy, thanks for stopping by, again with out any real thoughts on how do we address some major issues that stem from lack of pay out, xp, GXP are causing some toxic things to real team play in game, like 80% of matches.

Solutions that will not eat up resource's that are needed else where right now and that really fix the core problem, with out sending PGI on a wild goose hunt, filling the forums and feed back with, " I think they should give more to narc, more to tag, etc. etc." welcomed. Because if they just bump up earnings by the 30-50% for all with bonus for real objectives/missions being met, we wouldn't even have any of these kinda threads. Good game play and team work would work themselves out 80% of the time. Problem solved.

Its not that any of those are bad Ideas by the people making them, it just will not solve the real issues I for one see every night that I drop in games. Challenges, and events bring it out even more so.... which only goes to show, if there is a drought in your player base for C-bills.... Not all, but many will find ways to exploit it to their own advantage and gain. This is counter productive and = fail.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 25 October 2014 - 05:12 PM.

[Mr Beefy]

Livewyr, on 25 October 2014 - 04:19 PM, said:

A: Those new players will not have seen the difference. (As I said, this is sticker shock)
B: Trial mechs are no longer your SHS stock piles of garbage...they are all useful, some of them- very useful.
C: If they are in a game with "good earners" they were likely put there with Elo...which is another issue entirely. (Elo starting out mid-grade is a poor decision on PGI's part.)
D: If someone does not want to spend as much time grinding cbills, they can get premium... that IS the point of premium, taking what is a slower process... and making it faster. It works for the underperforming too.



FTFY. (There is an economy within the video game...and it happens to be a genuine merit based economy now.)

And it does not specifically cater to heavies and assaults anymore, to boot.

And I am gonna stop reading your reply on "A" They may not have seen the COST, but they sure the hell feel it, every game they pound away in, trying to get better... trying to work as a team.

SO lets say Johny has one very nicely played match, for him at least... stays with the team death ball, and he gets 4 kills, 5 assist, 589 damage, and yet he only pulls off a 138k , 750 xp match if hes lucky. Little Johny is very excited.... his team won, he lived, and he feels like he is doing much better. He now goes into the mech lab, He's been wanting to try a er.ppc for a really long while now, but can't afford it with trying to save up for the many mechs he wants, or DHS, etc, etc.

He spots it, sees the price on it, he's not sure if it will fit his play style to help get more wins for the team.... but wait, he can't even afford a clan med. pulse laser with that fairly decent match he just played. Yep, he is gonna want to keep grinding away, and even pull out his wallet and start dropping cash for PT to make it all come together for him.... Right....

Edited by Mr Beefy, 25 October 2014 - 05:10 PM.

[Assiah]

Mr Beefy, on 25 October 2014 - 05:02 PM, said:

And I am gonna stop reading your reply on "A" They may not have seen the COST, but they sure the hell feel it, every game they pound away in, trying to get better... trying to work as a team.

SO lets say Johny has one very nicely played match, for him at least... stays with the team death ball, and he gets 4 kills, 5 assist, 589 damage, and yet he only pulls off a 138k , 750 xp match if hes lucky. Little Johny is very excited.... his team won, he lived, and he feels like he is doing much better. He now goes into the mech lab, He's been wanting to try a er.ppc for a really long while now, but can't afford it with trying to save up for the many mechs he wants, or DHS, etc, etc.

He spots it, sees the price on it, he's not sure if it will fit his play style to help get more wins for the team.... but wait, he can't even afford a clan med. pulse laser with that fairly decent match he just played. Yep, he is gonna want to keep grinding away, and even pull out his wallet and start dropping cash for PT to make it all come together for him.... Right....

This exactly, new players arn't going to pay up to get rid of the grind, they are going to leave to find another game.

[Mr Beefy]

Assiah, on 25 October 2014 - 05:20 PM, said:

This exactly, new players arn't going to pay up to get rid of the grind, they are going to leave to find another game.

Well, who is to say for sure that a new player won't..... I guess some are willing to play the numbers game thinking the one way will be a sure thing and they will. I am one that hopes that bright idea went out the door with IGP.

The point is are they still willing to play the numbers game while on such a roll in the right direction? If I would have not seen some of the remarks from veteran and new players alike and the toxic game play that not only lacked team play if they gained from it, but openly "lol" about it in game chat after it in 80% of the hundreds of games I have dropped in the last year... I would have moved on and not played if not my love for this game, or more where I think PGI is able to take this game if they try. I would not be taking the time to relay my thoughts on the real problem here if I didn't care about this game and want to continue to support it with my time and money.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 25 October 2014 - 05:37 PM.

[Mystere]

Mr Beefy, on 25 October 2014 - 04:29 PM, said:

Adding main objectives (primary and secondary ones) into game modes soon to be brought out and the ones we have of around 75-100k extra for taking the base or a defense of a base attack with 400-600xp on top of the normal match earnings would fix some of the players outlook on what they should be trying to accomplish in a given match mode they drop in.

...

Would this make us rage or complain of a roll back to PGI? No, I don't think it will cause even one problem.

How quickly people forget.

People complained incessantly and loudly about players base rushing and avoiding fights to cap. They were told by other players to defend their bases if they did not want to be capped. But these people would have none of that. They would rather all go to the center of the map in their murder ball and expected the other team to also go to the center of the map in their murder ball. So they still complained incessantly and loudly about players base rushing and avoiding fights to cap. They demanded that cap times be significantly increased so that their heavily-armed but slow-as-molasses mobile turrets of doom have enough time to go from one corner of the map to the opposite corner. In the end, PGI complied with their loud and incessant demands, just to stop them from complaining loudly and incessantly about players base rushing and avoiding fights to cap.

So, given past history, do you really think "No, I don't think it will cause even one problem" if rewards for capping were significantly increased.

[Assiah]

Mr Beefy, on 25 October 2014 - 05:30 PM, said:

Well, who is to say for sure that a new player won't..... I guess some are willing to play the numbers game thinking the one way will be a sure thing and they will. I am one that hopes that bright idea went out the door with IGP.

The point is are they still willing to play the numbers game while on such a roll in the right direction? If I would have not seen some of the remarks from veteran and new players alike and the toxic game play that not only lacked team play if they gained from it, but openly "lol" about it in game chat after it in 80% of the hundreds of games I have dropped in the last year... I would have moved on and not played if not my love for this game, or more where I think PGI is able to take this game if they try. I would not be taking the time to relay my thoughts on the real problem here if I didn't care about this game and want to continue to support it with my time and money.

I know its anecdotal, but I can say for sure they wont due to the multitude of people I've suggested this game to since it went open beta. I'm willing to bet 9 out of 10 new players who come into this game, try it, see that its could to take them months to get anywhere into it, evaluate the opportunity cost of spending time and money on this game or doing something else, and then decide their time and money is better spent elsewhere.


quite honestly it reminds me of what happened in planetside 2. early on you needed 500 xp to get one certification point or cert and most guns in that game cost around 500-1000 certs and upgrades cost 100-500 certs, you could only get xp via kills. people left in droves due to the grind, then SOE lowered it to 250xp for 1 cert and upped the ways one could earn xp, to the point that you felt you could make some progress with just a weekend of dedicated play. The population is much more stable now, and while I will say PS2 still has issues, the grind is not one of them anymore.

[Mystere]

The more I read this thread, the more I remember this image and end up cringing:

Edited by Mystere, 25 October 2014 - 05:57 PM.

[DrSlamastika]

NOPE, CBs earning is ok !

Edited by DrSlamastika, 25 October 2014 - 05:59 PM.

[Mr Beefy]

Mystere, on 25 October 2014 - 05:49 PM, said:

How quickly people forget.

People complained incessantly and loudly about players base rushing and avoiding fights to cap. They were told by other players to defend their bases if they did not want to be capped. But these people would have none of that. They would rather all go to the center of the map in their murder ball and expected the other team to also go to the center of the map in their murder ball. So they still complained incessantly and loudly about players base rushing and avoiding fights to cap. They demanded that cap times be significantly increased so that their heavily-armed but slow-as-molasses mobile turrets of doom have enough time to go from one corner of the map to the opposite corner. In the end, PGI complied with their loud and incessant demands, just to stop them from complaining loudly and incessantly about players base rushing and avoiding fights to cap.

So, given past history, do you really think "No, I don't think it will cause even one problem" if rewards for capping were significantly increased.

Honestly, If they give the added bonus of 75-100K, 400-600xp as a reward based on the the match mode's primary objective win by 750 points limit, than yes, I do believe it will move 80% of players to understand the very simple objective they have placed as being the primary one as the goal that most should try to obtain in game play. Players will start to swing around to the idea that maybe a giant ball of death isn't the best way to get the extra 75-100k reward, and figure out new ways to split up the death ball, and hit targets that make them more C-bills.... Gee, who would of thought of this might be the way to motive players that exploit the system and just death ball to get the c-bills at any cost. The only way this will even begin to work is if they do the boost of 30-50% on all earnings in the first place..... the Lust for C-bills has to be lessened or it will not be as effective in countering this very toxic and getting rather stale play style.

Another point in case why little tweeks alone do not fix the core issue of lack of earnings and the always painful grind for them in the game. I Had a Conquest match in my Storm crow, that I started out sticking with the death ball....gotta get those new rewards right?

Well as almost the entire team went right on the map in Canyon, the enemy went center and left. I thought this was funny because does it really take 8-10 mechs to cap one point? How many games have any of you won when this style of very poor tactic works on Conquest, if you are trying to play as a real team and get the point win/ Which is the primary objective in Conquest mode, right?

I started to notice a trend happening here, we flanked them and capped only what they had just taken, with the exception of two of our lights taking just one other point. The enemy took three points and started to come behind us and take what we just capped. I broke off from the death ball, after staying with them and trying to hit some of the stragglers on the other team and went back to cap the point we just had taken by myself after seeing it being capped on the bar. Sure enough, there was a enemy storm crow there. He didn't cap or even try to hit us, while we was leaving and advancing to their starting cap point. Why? Gee I guess he didn't think exposing his presence was a good Idea with our death ball leaving anyways.

Thankfully to our two light pilots that was hit and running the enemy, engaging them when they could, and breaking off and going to cap when they shouldn't engage... and me breaking off from the team to solo the storm crow that was working his way behind us every cap our death ball was taking, which had us down around 180 points or better we turned it around and won with a cap point no less. Under the system we had, and even the one we have in place now....how much do you think I made for this match? I had 1 kill, and 6 assist... 386 damage i believe. Wonder how much the lights pilots made, that made the choice to pull out the win for us also, instead of giving into your versions of what good team play is all about.

How can you guys come on this thread and spit out some of the BS you do....was this not good team play? I knew I would make much less if I broke off from the death ball, but I didn't want to have one of those games our team just got out played by the enemy because we lost track of the main objective... How much more team player can one be in this game??? Please... explain again to me.....post some more pics of your great rounds, and trophy pics, it really does help prove your claims of L2P, noobs.



If some would like to further make the argument that the added time to cap or base assault kills their earnings or not worth it at this pay out level.... well let them check the box that many made such a uproar about, and use their choice to enjoy the style of game play they love so much.

The tears would be even more Ironic given the fact that PGI has willing fixed one of the issues with Conquest by lowering the cap times back down. Thanks PGI for listening, it is a move in the right direction in Conquest mode for sure!

If 80% of the players in game will not work as a team for a primary objective given the game mode they drop into, how in the hell are we as a player base going to do it in CW when it drops. Right now, there are three primary objectives and three match modes. This is so simple its not even, funny. If many say screw team play, screw the primary objective, killing pays more, narc, tag pays more.... I will do whatever it takes to get more C-bills so I can buy stuff I need, even if it means not playing as a team..... HUSTON WE HAVE A PROBLEM! It shouldn't take us suggesting what it is to see the real problem.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 25 October 2014 - 10:26 PM.

[SpeedingBus]

Mystere, on 25 October 2014 - 05:57 PM, said:

The more I read this thread, the more I remember this image and end up cringing:

Well your post makes you look like a child so why don't you go post somewhere else please. PGI promised us this new reward system to improve cbill income and incentive good teamwork while the jury still out on teamwork it clearly has lowered our income which is not what they promised.

Edited by SpeedingBus, 25 October 2014 - 06:12 PM.

[Mystere]

SpeedingBus, on 25 October 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Well your post makes you look like a child so why don't you go post somewhere else please.

Well, I am not the one asking for (increased) rewards just for participating.

SpeedingBus, on 25 October 2014 - 06:11 PM, said:

Well your post makes you look like a child so why don't you go post somewhere else please. PGI promised us this new reward system to improve cbill income and incentive good teamwork while the jury still out on teamwork it clearly has lowered our income which is not what they promised.

Well, as other people have already been saying, the new reward system did increase their earnings. I myself see this too, and it did not require any change in my playstyle. And that is while I am supporting my team in an Adder no less.

So who is correct, those complaining that their earnings have been reduced, or those countering that their earning have increased? It could even be both. Of course, only PGI knows for sure what the change in average earnings are.

But, I think one post gives what just might be a plausible explanation:

Livewyr, on 25 October 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

It is almost as if it is a merit based economy.

Edited by Mystere, 25 October 2014 - 06:42 PM.

[Alexander MacTaggart]

Mystere, on 25 October 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Well, as other people have already been saying, the new reward system did increase their earnings. I myself see this too, and it did not require any change in my playstyle. And that is while I am supporting my team in an Adder no less.

Again, "I'm fine, you just need to Get Better" is not a rebuttal. People have posted examples of ridiculously low payout matches, so there's no real need for more proof.

Also again, the problem is not how high the earnings can go (and it does seem to be higher now), the problem is that the 'floor' is now lower then before so if you're not a 'pro gamer' or whatever you are making less. For those people it is a 'nerf'.

Explain to me how getting more money before was perfectly fine but not wanting to get less money for the same effort now is "expecting rewards for participation"?

[Mr Beefy]

Mystere, on 25 October 2014 - 06:40 PM, said:

Well, I am not the one asking for (increased) rewards just for participating.




Well, as other people have already been saying, the new reward system did increase their earnings. I myself see this too, and it did not require any change in my playstyle. And that is while I am supporting my team in an Adder no less.

So who is correct, those complaining that their earnings have been reduced, or those countering that their earning have increased? It could even be both. Of course, only PGI knows for sure what the change in average earnings are.

But, I think one post gives what just might be a plausible explanation:

And that is how we all circle jerk and get side tracked and miss the entire point of what the real problem is, the cause... as well as the effect. Thank you again for another reply that brings us back to the now its to low, some say its higher debate. We can do this all year long, and matches can continue to be a big death match, group it up team or we die, make sure you got that target painted with 12 tags son, and stay on my hip because there is no other legit tactic in this game that will win us the game. Kill em' all Little Johny, don't follow the primary objective in the given game mode we just dropped into.... Trust me, it pays less....

PAY IS TO LOW, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN SINCE THE FIRST BIG DEPRESSION! This is the point, it is the problem behind this snowballing death match motivation believing its the only way to win the game. Nice try though with plausible explanation quote, that explains it..... and the death ball match will now end with your input to the problem at hand.

Edited by Mr Beefy, 25 October 2014 - 06:52 PM.

[Assiah]

I would also like to touch on an argument livewyr made and a few others agreed. that argument being that this is a merit based economy and that that is a good thing. I feel this argument gets tossed around a lot whenever someone talks about increasing the c-bills earned per match. I remember people fielding this argument back in December 2012 and here it is popping up again. The problem with this argument is that, we are not using a proper economy at all. All economic theories are based on dividing up finite resources, in the case of the merit base economy, these resources go to ones who have "earned" them. How they earn these resources varies from system to system. But in MWO we don't have that problem, we are each working on our own progression, if I buy a Summoner with cbills, it does not have any effect on the market, the same is true if I decide not to buy it. There is no limited number of this mech or that mech, no limitation on how many heatsinks I can buy.

So honestly we are not using an economy at all, instead we are all on our own set progression speed, and the argument many of us are fielding, is that that speed is too slow. What the opponents of this argument are saying is, we already have what we want so screw the rest of you. Now while that is fine and dandy for them, I'm sure they could care less about player retention and new player progression. But these are just players, they are elitist players, but players none the less. PGI on the other hand should care deeply about player retention and progression, because at the end of the day, it effects their bottom line.

so here is my suggestion, lets stop trying to convince players who seem to think everything is fine with the current earnings and instead email support, calmly and politely tell them your concerns, maybe tell them of friends you referred to the game in the past that left due to this issue. I'm fairly certain PGI is quite interested in your opinion as a player, they would be a foolish company if they weren't.

Edited by Assiah, 25 October 2014 - 06:56 PM.

[Mystere]

Alexander MacTaggart, on 25 October 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Again, "I'm fine, you just need to Get Better" is not a rebuttal. People have posted examples of ridiculously low payout matches, so there's no real need for more proof.

How mighty convenient of you to remove the rest of my comment, especially given it's relevance to your "is not a rebuttal" line.

Alexander MacTaggart, on 25 October 2014 - 06:48 PM, said:

Also again, the problem is not how high the earnings can go (and it does seem to be higher now), the problem is that the 'floor' is now lower then before so if you're not a 'pro gamer' or whatever you are making less. For those people it is a 'nerf'.

Explain to me how getting more money before was perfectly fine but not wanting to get less money for the same effort now is "expecting rewards for participation"?

This:

Livewyr, on 25 October 2014 - 03:49 PM, said:

It is almost as if it is a merit based economy.

I always thought the "rewards" for poor performance were on the high side. So, no, I did not think they were fine before.

And by the way, I only play solo. So your "'pro gamer" comment does not apply.

[Mystere]

Mr Beefy, on 25 October 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

And that is how we all circle jerk and get side tracked and miss the entire point of what the real problem is, the cause... as well as the effect. Thank you again for another reply that brings us back to the now its to low, some say its higher debate. We can do this all year long, and matches can continue to be a big death match, group it up team or we die, make sure you got that target painted with 12 tags son, and stay on my hip because there is no other legit tactic in this game that will win us the game. Kill em' all Little Johny, don't follow the primary objective in the given game mode we just dropped into.... Trust me, it pays less....

Until PGI releases the average earnings numbers, circle jerking is all that can ever happen on these forums with regard to this topic.

Mr Beefy, on 25 October 2014 - 06:49 PM, said:

PAY IS TO LOW, AND ALWAYS HAS BEEN SINCE THE FIRST BIG DEPRESSION! This is the point, it is the problem behind this snowballing death match motivation believing its the only way to win the game. Nice try though with plausible explanation quote, that explains it..... and the death ball match will now end with your input to the problem at hand.

Considering I play for objectives (i.e. capping in Assault and Conquest when the opportunity arises), and I hate the murder ball with a passion, your earnings "theory" is way off.

Edited by Mystere, 25 October 2014 - 07:12 PM.