332 replies to this topic

[mike29tw]

Paul Inouye, on 30 October 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

- BAP – We have increased the counter ECM aspect of BAP from 150m to 360m to give more value to the 1.5 ton item and provide more effective counters to ECM.

More value to a 1.5 ton item to make it counter something with absurd value for 1.5 ton?

Sigh......still not seeing the underlying problem of ECM.

[Cerlin]

Nicholas Carlyle, on 30 October 2014 - 11:59 AM, said:

Can you please just make ECM do what it was supposed to do?

Change it to counter Artemis/NARC/TAG/BAP and let every mech mount it.

Then you can stop making stupid band-aid changes and PROPERLY balance LRMs by doing a ground up rework.

And lowering LRM damage is dumb as hell. Jesus.

I like the LRM change TBH. With the amount Clans can boat em now, a little hit to damage will be interesting to see.

[ExAstris]

AlphaStruck, on 30 October 2014 - 06:01 PM, said:

As a long time AS7-K user is there any way we could get a rerole on those quirks since we seem stuck with this quirk thing? I was really hoping the wimpy weird cousin of the AS7 family would get something with real use to make up for the limited weapon slots and no ECM. PPC and guass is just not going to work out. No one with any time in a atlas is going to run a slow firing exploding weapon in the first to go ballistic torso.

I know you fall back on "well you get the other generic bonus quirks"... but this mech needed some serious love(and other are getting meta enhancements). Maybe we could get full generic boost or some AMS boosts to help it have a place as the first defensive mech.. MLAS/MPLS/AC20/LRM20 would also be something worth while to add. It has such limited weapon slots give it a decent weapon boost or just plain up the armor, that would be great.

I haven't seen the quirk list for the K, where is it?
EDIT: Found it in the following link, thanks to moonlander for providing the link earlier in the thread.
https://docs.google....&pli=1&sle=true

Also, you're right. General energy quirks, more armor, and/or an AMS boost would be the best for the K, and it needs a fair amount of love to compete with other Atlas variants that have 2-3 more weapon hardpoints and other chassis like the DWF-B that can have up to 9 more hardpoints (250% as many!).

Edited by ExAstris, 30 October 2014 - 08:09 PM.

[Kjudoon]

Yet another LRM nerf. Really?

it's a good thing I'm getting a new computer so I can play another game style because I'm sorry, this is just ludicrous. 0.1 decrease in damage is either going to prove to be nothing, or that little extra to make LRMs ignorable for everyone but the worst players, or biggest brawltards.

[J0anna]

I too think there is an error in Clan ER Small Lasers and Clan Small Pulse Laser range, as both are at 150 currently. Increasing ER Small Lasers to 200, is vital for their use - so I really hope it's true.

[Angel of Annihilation]

warner2, on 30 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

Grayson and Lori, Shadow Hawk and Locust.

I have to say I can't quite believe CERML and CLPL got a buff (CERML is a small buf, CLPL is a significant buff boosting range, alpha, accuracy and DPS). Combinations of those two weapons are some of the strongest builds in the game (for obvious reasons - no ghost heat, decent range, 1 ton CERML, etc., etc.) especially on a Stormcrow or Timber Wolf. Did Clan laser vomit really need buffing? I'm confused.

Why do people keep thinking that the CLPL got a buff when it it actually got nerfed?

It is going to be 12% hotter now. Heat, unlike any other change, effects the entire mech. If your CLPLs are 12% hotter this means your going to hit your heat threshold faster which means every other weapon you mount is going to have to reduce their fire rates to compensate. I would bet overall in rough equivalency, you are loosing about 1 DHS of effective cooling for each CLPL you mount, all for a measly 2 extra damage every 3.25 seconds. Also the beam duration coming down also is going to add to heat because it means you aren't going to have as much cooling time between shots.

The blunt truth is, the extra damage just isn't worth the extra heat especially when the Clan mechs are already running on the hot side.

Edited by Viktor Drake, 30 October 2014 - 07:50 PM.

[Hawk819]

Well, this should lend credence to the fact that the two `Mechs in question. Are indeed, Grayson and Lori Carlyle:

Grayson

• Grayson Death Carlyle re-acquired a former Carlyle's Commandos Shadow Hawk after their rout on Trellwan. He used it as his personal 'Mech during the following campaign to free Trellwan from Duke Ricol and the Draconis Combine and during the infancy of the Gray Death Legion. Carlyle's Shadow Hawk was disabled and later passed to Lori Kalmar after the liberation of Verthandi in 3024 when Grayson switched to a Marauder. The Gray Death Legion fielded two Shadow Hawk BattleMechs in their next campaign on Helm in 3027.

Lori

Kalmar has piloted two primary 'Mechs in combat - the Locust and the Shadow Hawk. She was highly adept in piloting both 'Mech designs, despite their design differences. The Shadow Hawk, called "Boss Lady", was lost on Glengarry during Marshal Brandal Gareth's assault in 3057 during Operation Excalibur, and she piloted a replacement Zeus later that year during the Legion's fight on Hesperus II against the Marshal, losing it at the end of the battle. She later briefly piloted Grayson's Victor after he died, until her own death on Hesperus II in '65.

So in essence, we could see a tandem similar to the Dragon. No doubt in my mind as which `Mechs were getting: twin Shadow Hawks.

[Leigus]

I'm going to echo the general "overhaul ECM" vibe that's throughout this thread. It's a little annoying that the built-in counters to ECM in the game are BAP and Narc (two things which ECM, technically is supposed to interfere with). Quoting Sarna specifically (from the Guardian ECM Suite article):

"Designed to interfere with 'x' the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from..."

Setting all other elements aside, the main word I pick out from that phrase is "interfere," which to me speaks more of "slowing down" rather than blocking altogether. For example, greatly increasing time of target info gathering and negate the benefits of Artemis IV, but still allowing targeting (and most importantly target designations) to appear instantaneously. This way, it would still disrupt an enemy's attempts to gain missile locks but would not prevent them all together. Also, with a nerf this extreme in place, I see no reason why ECM shouldn't counter Narc, BAP, Artemis, and return the old functionality of removing friendly mech icons from the minimap (as ECM interferes with friendly communications).

This could also be a nice opportunity to add some additional functionality to BAP, possibly in the form of recording target info from mechs targeted by the BAP and sharing that information with allies. (ECM, of course, would interrupt this effect).

I don't necessarily think that hiding from radar in MWO is a bad thing, I just don't think ECM should be the vessel for it. I liked the idea from way back in the day of running with most of your mech's critical systems disabled (no HUD, no weapons, reduced speed) could reduce the range at which your mech can be targeted. BAP, as per its design, could counter these effects further giving it more of a role in the game.


Given that:
PPC > ECM > Narc > visual cover > LRMs
ECM > BAP > systems dark > LRMs

[Ultimax]

Russ Bullock, on 30 October 2014 - 12:58 PM, said:

[color=#00FFFF]"Are you saying that you are changing BAP to counter ECM when your mech also equips ECM? As of right now if both BAP and ECM are equipped you must set ECM to counter as the BAP functionality is disabled."[/color]

[color=#00FFFF]Yes you are correct and it will stay this way. I was wrong.[/color]

I think you should reconsider this, at least for the Mist Lynx.

This little 25 tonner is going to be relatively slow, under-gunned, minimal tonnage to work with and has Active Probe permanently fused into it's head.

The one good thing about this mech is that it will have ECM as an option - but it will lose the best part of the functionality of it's hardlocked Active Probe when it takes ECM.

[Bishop Steiner]

Paul Inouye, on 30 October 2014 - 11:54 AM, said:

Let us know what you think about the November Roadmap posted by Russ.

Spoiler

Here is to the best of my current knowledge the November road map of features and changes. I will continue to modify this list as things change.

---

[color=orange]Inner Sphere 'Mech Quirks[/color] - not much more I can say at this point that you don't already know. This is in final test now and looks set to release as scheduled on Nov 4th. I will re-iterate that this was just the initial full pass on IS quirks. I am sure player feedback and data once live will cause us to make adjustments. I also know we will be going through and doing deeper passes on movement quirks and others.

*Negative quirks on the Timber Wolf S Omnipod's have been reduced now that the fixed slot Jump Jets have been implemented.

Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

---

[color=orange]Rewards 2.0 Bug fixes[/color] - There are several items needing fixing including the ability to farm your own TAG laser with your non Missile type weapons. There were also problems with Flanking and a few other items. Look for a number of bug fixes in the next patch.

Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

---

[color=orange]Balance Changes[/color] - With the new quirk system about to hit, we made a concerted effort to address a number of balance issues:

- LRM damage reduced from 1.1 to 1.0 - legacy item from ages ago that was past due to revert to lore values.

- Inner Sphere AMS ammo per ton has been increased from 1K to 2K to match the clans. This should encourage more AMS usage among IS players.

- Significant changes have been made to all of the IS and Clan lasers, most notably the range on Small lasers and significant changes to all Pulse Lasers.

- PPC and ERPPC have each had their velocity increased by 100. This means they move to 950 and 1050 respectively.

- BAP – We have increased the counter ECM aspect of BAP from 150m to 360m to give more value to the 1.5 ton item and provide more effective counters to ECM.



Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

---

[color=orange]First Wave 2 'Mech the Fenris[/color] – MC and Cbill release schedule is listed on the Wave 2 FAQ.

Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

---

[color=orange]Thunderbolt Champion[/color] - Thunderbolt 9SE Champion – comes with a 30% XP boost like all champion mechs.

Release Date: Nov 4th Patch.

---

[color=orange]New Hero 'Mech's[/color] – Our next Hero mechs release will be a pair of mechs representing a famous husband and wife in two iconic old school mechs.

Release Date: Nov 18th Patch.

---

[color=orange]New map Working Title Swamp[/color] – Beautiful new map as promised, I think you’re going to enjoy the vibrant colors, very different from any other map to date and adds another art palette to our available list.

Release Date: Nov 18th Patch.

So.... the Gray Death are coming? Gray and Lori in Shadow Hawk and Locust seem likely candidates for the new Hero Mechs.

[Kael Posavatz]

Is 'BAP' being used as a generic for active probes, or do you intend for this new functionality (360m ECM knock-down) to only apply to the IS Beagle Active Probe? Considering the repeated references to '1.5 tons' this is sounding a lot like 'subtle clan nerf'.

Frankly I find the latter notion the more troubling. PGI has done an excellent job keeping the community informed of upcoming changes this year, both those eagerly anticipated, and those that some of us may have found, um, 'less than desirable', let us say. This is in contrast to the rather lackluster communication prior. I do hope PGI is not trending back towards the bad old days.

[Karl Marlow]

Is BAP a hard counter to all ECM or can it only counter one ECM at a time? If it is the latter can a mech that has both BAP and ECM counter two ECMs?

[Fuggles]

Bront, on 30 October 2014 - 01:37 PM, said:

Yes, but why should it's counter range be reduced when being paired with ECM?

or maybe ECM counter range needs to be increased as well.

increase ECM counter range as well. it only makes sense.

[Fuggles]

ThomasMarik, on 30 October 2014 - 09:14 PM, said:

Is BAP a hard counter to all ECM or can it only counter one ECM at a time? If it is the latter can a mech that has both BAP and ECM counter two ECMs?

1 bap can cancel one ecm, if there were 3 raven 3ls, you wound need 3 enemy mechs with bap you counter all of them (when they are all within the same "circle")

when bap was first allowed to counter ECM, they specifically made it so if you had both equiped, bap lost the ability to counter, you still had to toggle ECM modes. this was done from making the combo of having both too strong when the intent was to put in a counter to ECM.

[Fuggles]

Viktor Drake, on 30 October 2014 - 07:49 PM, said:

Why do people keep thinking that the CLPL got a buff when it it actually got nerfed?

maybe because its getting 1.4 more damage, a reduction to beam duration wich means faster recycle time (more damage) and more range. the only nerf is 1 heat. honestly with these figures if they didnt add the heat, it would be way out of line with other energy weapons.

[no one]

1 - You are calculating DPS/HPS wrong in your chart.You need to include burn duration as well as cycle time.

ISmediumDPS = 5 / (3 + .9) = 1.282 dps
ISmedplDPS = 6 / (3 + .6) = 1.667 dps

ISmediumHPS = 4 / (3 + .9) = 1.0256 dps
ISmedplHPS = 4 / (3 + .6) = 1.1111 dps

etc.

2 - You aren't going to achieve a good balance number tweaking pulse lasers. Ever. I, and others have said this before, and it bears repeating; Pulse lasers need to be functionally distinguished from normal lasers to be useful, interesting weapons. You now have them in a spot where they're essentially 2 ton slightly more damaging/hotter Medium lasers. That is also where they will be after your proposed changes.

If you want interesting, good but different pulse lasers that don't overshadow normal lasers, here's what you do -
a - Give them a 'chare', or an amount of time that they can be fired.
b - Have them discharge only while the trigger is held down, and charge only when the trigger is let up.
That's it. You now have a laser that's hot, and short ranged but damaging that can be fired in controlled bursts. You can then have them hotter and shorter ranged and people will still use them for brawling. No staring contest to eek out the full x seconds of damage.

isMediumpl
Discharge capacity - 1.2 sec
Recharge time - 6 sec
Full Cycle Time - 7.2 sec
DPS - 1.667 (The same as what you're proposing now.)
Full burst damage = 1.667 * 7.2 = 12 damage
0.X sec burst damage = X damage

You might tweak the numbers there but, come on. . . tell me that doesn't sound cool?
Machine gun like fire control on lasers. I'd pay double tonnage for that on some 'Mechs.


IS small lasers are still too hot.

Edited by no one, 30 October 2014 - 10:16 PM.

[Rat of the Legion Vega]

Half of these balance changes (buffing Clan lasers and PPCs) are just reversing the nerfs you guys did to these weapons only a couple months ago. That's fine, because I wasn't in favour of those changes anyway. But it just seems that balancing goes around in continual, pointless circles in this game.

Mark my words, within 2 months, the forum whining about 1.0 LRM damage will lead to another massive LRM buff and LRMageddon part XIV. To be reversed two days later by an emergency hotfix. We've already gone through this song and dance 4 times already.

The whole balancing discussion/debate is getting very very tiresome. There must be something more interesting to talk about regarding this game.

.

Edited by Rat of the Legion Vega, 30 October 2014 - 10:03 PM.

[Scurry]

Let me see......odds on Shadow Hawk and Locust heroes, but......

As of 3049-50, Grayson had the Marauder and Lori had the Shadow Hawk.

Plus it fits the trend of selling the hero before the actual chassis.

Marauder confirmed.

Spoiler

I know, I know, but a Mechwarrior can dream, can't he?

[Shalune]

I'm at a loss. LRMs are already easily played around, only see use in PUGs, and their damage gets nerfed again. The IS laser buffs are cool, but clan lasers? Especially the LPL? It's already one of the best weapons in the game.

[Pjwned]

I don't really understand why IS small lasers and medium lasers are still at 2 and 4 heat respectively when they should be at 1 and 3 heat, especially when LRMs are now nerfed to remove a "legacy item from ages ago that was past due to revert to lore values" which is almost exactly the same premise.

It is nice to see pulse lasers get a pretty nice buff, although if it were up to me I might have made different changes overall.