373 replies to this topic

[Masterrix]

Telmasa, on 11 November 2014 - 08:21 PM, said:

*facepalm*

Potential 210-350 damage per strike. 2520 - 4200 damage if all 12 people bring strikes.

Yeah. Not much damage at all. Only enough to wipe out 2-3 groups of 12-man drops.

u may have noticed, that "potential damage" has nothing to do with "actual damage" ingame

and in case of arty, it is just silly to look on something like "potential damage"

because of:
- many arties misplaced
- many enemies escape in time
- not every shell will hit
- not every player has arty equiped
- not every player with equiped arty finds a good opportunity to call arty before he's killed or match is over

...so pls stop argumenting with "potential moon-numbers". arty actually doesn't deal much damage ingame in an "average match"

.

Edited by Masterrix, 12 November 2014 - 11:57 AM.

[Rando Slim]

Sandtiger: no in fact I shouldn't get killed in a Jenner moving laterally, in solo queue, going a 150 kph as I was flying over a hill and couldn't see the smoke, when the shells literally had just started to fall I had no idea the strike was even dropped, it was too late, I was already ACCIDENTALLY going kind of at an angle through the outer edge of the strike, so for then for it to just get really stupidly lucky and headshot me like that is bullshit. Blow my leg off or arm off or side-torso kill me? Ok fine. I'm not a "grasshopper" I've played thousands of matches. I'm a mediocre player, not a bad one, and Im not stupid. I know what a Jenner is capable of and what I expect out of it. I don't expect some gobshit luck no-skill nonsense to just arbitrarily off me through no input of an opposing player. The reality is the hitbox on the head of any given mech is small enough that one moving at 150 kph shouldn't get head-shotted. EVER, especially BECAUSE you have to make that sacrifice of armor for speed in something like a Jenner.

To clarify, I understand arty should be in the game, I can even be convinced to leave the damage alone, and yes my earlier comment of a 2 minute cooldown was a bit much, but if you've played against say a team like 228 recently, ALL THEY DO IS PUSH RIGHT INTO YOU EVERY TIME. So obviously it still doesn't really affect thier strategy of deathballing. Making the team cooldown 45 secnds to 1 minute would just make the game more enjoyable for you know.....THE OTHER 80 AND FRANKLY MORE IMPORTANT PERCENT OF THE COMMUNITY WHO THINKS IT ISNT FUN. Games are about fun, fun gams make money. The bigger of a percentage of the people that are having fun, the more money is made. I win (j/k)!

EDIT: Why the hell does it never work for me when I try to quote someone?

Edited by Scrotacus 42, 12 November 2014 - 08:19 AM.

[Violent Nick]

Nicolai Kabrinsky, on 06 November 2014 - 05:03 AM, said:

They don't need to be nerfed or buffed.

They need to be completely redesigned.

It makes absolutely zero sense to let any mech in the game be equipped with some sort of artillery / airstrike TAG with unlimited range and instant delivery at zero range, capable of doing that much damage. It's just not balanced, it's not fun. I was thrilled when they announced artillery and airstrike untill I realized it would do absolutely NOTHING for the role warfare they promised.

Artillery & airstrikes would be a lot more fun if it worked more like it does in real life. And make each work in a different way. Make artillery available only for mechs with command console using the command grid to give coordinates. Give it a 2 minute cool-down, and give enemy mechs something like a 10 second warning before the artillery hits. Airstrikes should only be delivered if a mech is able to paint its intended target with TAG for 10 seconds. Maybe only make it available for light mechs. If interrupted, the airstrike should land at random within 500 meters or something. And give the airstrike a 2 or 3 minute cool-down as well. Obviously, damage and spread would need to be adjusted to make up for the fact that they're not single shot consumables anymore.

It would be nice if we played a game where a Spider 5V with TAG could position itself on a hill or a top of a mountain and actively deliver airstrikes with regular intervals, and then the other team would have to actively look for any scouts that might be dropping those airstrikes. And obviously, the TAG beam would be a fairly strong warning that an airstrike was incoming.

Right now, any mech on the enemy team is potentially carrying airstrike or artillery or both. Delivered instantly with a slight delay, at any range. It's a terrible game mechanic, it's not fun at all.

Sorry but you said this:

'Artillery & airstrikes would be a lot more fun if it worked more like it does in real life.'

And then, this:


Give it a 2 minute cool-down, and give enemy mechs something like a 10 second warning before the artillery hits.'

Okay...

But then you said this:

'It would be nice if we played a game where a Spider 5V with TAG could position itself on a hill or a top of a mountain and actively deliver airstrikes with regular intervals, and then the other team would have to actively look for any scouts that might be dropping those airstrikes. And obviously, the TAG beam would be a fairly strong warning that an airstrike was incoming.'

Tell you what, I'm equipping my Dire Wolf with the Tag/Artillery gun when this comes along. Expect to see me up on G6 in Tourmaline waving at you from my cockpit whilst firing my 3 Gauss and ARTILLERY GUN at you.. Expect some heavy taunting also..

Ps: I may even put 8 Tags on it...

Edited by Nick86, 12 November 2014 - 09:23 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

Nick86, on 12 November 2014 - 09:14 AM, said:

Sorry but you said this:

'Artillery & airstrikes would be a lot more fun if it worked more like it does in real life.'

And then, this:


Give it a 2 minute cool-down, and give enemy mechs something like a 10 second warning before the artillery hits.'

Okay...

But then you said this:

'It would be nice if we played a game where a Spider 5V with TAG could position itself on a hill or a top of a mountain and actively deliver airstrikes with regular intervals, and then the other team would have to actively look for any scouts that might be dropping those airstrikes. And obviously, the TAG beam would be a fairly strong warning that an airstrike was incoming.'

Tell you what, I'm equipping my Dire Wolf with the Tag/Artillery gun when this comes along. Expect to see me up on G6 in Tourmaline waving at you from my cockpit whilst firing my 3 Gauss and ARTILLERY GUN at you.. Expect some heavy taunting also..

Ps: I may even put 8 Tags on it...

[Mcgral18]

Delas Ting Usee, on 11 November 2014 - 09:25 PM, said:

Uh, no to anymore nerfs please.

Do you not realize that 20 shells at 20 damage would be a buff?

More will hit the target, while getting a 50 damage buff.

[GalmOne]

Arti and Airstrike in this game are just a no skill softener and can potentialy turn around entire fights becouse of their ability to one kill headshot mechs and completely render useless some mechs that tend to have most of their weapons on their limbs like lights and mediums like the centurion. Fights where 10-12 artillery strikes rain on the enemy tend to end very badly
There is no evidence when said skill is being used by an enemy, no warning and no indication save for that tiny "red smoke" that anyone can just drop behind your ass without you knowing. i would like if there was some kind of purple laser or something that can be distinguished from normal tags and lasers so that you know someone just dropped an arty on you

Frankly i just wish they removed it altogether and replaced it with two things:
- a smoke screen that blocks LoS, locks and termal/nightvision to help close the distance or shield from missile locks
-EMP blast that does no damage, blinds for 2-3 seconds and deactivates HUD for around 10 seconds, this has the potential to screw up the use of arm mounted weapons against moving target but won't hinder the use of torso mounted weapons for those more experienced

[Voivode]

Love all the butthurt players who just want camping to be the unstoppable tactic. I call them the "Parking brake warriors"

[Joseph Mallan]

Scrotacus 42, on 12 November 2014 - 08:12 AM, said:

Sandtiger: no in fact I shouldn't get killed in a Jenner moving laterally, in solo queue, going a 150 kph as I was flying over a hill and couldn't see the smoke, when the shells literally had just started to fall I had no idea the strike was even dropped, it was too late, I was already ACCIDENTALLY going kind of at an angle through the outer edge of the strike, so for then for it to just get really stupidly lucky and headshot me like that is bullshit. Blow my leg off or arm off or side-torso kill me? Ok fine. I'm not a "grasshopper" I've played thousands of matches. I'm a mediocre player, not a bad one, and Im not stupid. I know what a Jenner is capable of and what I expect out of it. I don't expect some gobshit luck no-skill nonsense to just arbitrarily off me through no input of an opposing player. The reality is the hitbox on the head of any given mech is small enough that one moving at 150 kph shouldn't get head-shotted. EVER, especially BECAUSE you have to make that sacrifice of armor for speed in something like a Jenner.

To clarify, I understand arty should be in the game, I can even be convinced to leave the damage alone, and yes my earlier comment of a 2 minute cooldown was a bit much, but if you've played against say a team like 228 recently, ALL THEY DO IS PUSH RIGHT INTO YOU EVERY TIME. So obviously it still doesn't really affect thier strategy of deathballing. Making the team cooldown 45 secnds to 1 minute would just make the game more enjoyable for you know.....THE OTHER 80 AND FRANKLY MORE IMPORTANT PERCENT OF THE COMMUNITY WHO THINKS IT ISNT FUN. Games are about fun, fun gams make money. The bigger of a percentage of the people that are having fun, the more money is made. I win (j/k)!

EDIT: Why the hell does it never work for me when I try to quote someone?

Why Not? Seriously Why not? Why do you expect for there to be ZERO random chance in a game where blowing each other up is the main objective? You RAN INTO THE STRIKE ZONE and you should be allowed to walk away? Bullox.

[Coolant]

+1 to nerfing them...

[QuantumButler]

Voivode, on 12 November 2014 - 10:20 AM, said:

Love all the butthurt players who just want camping to be the unstoppable tactic. I call them the "Parking brake warriors"

And I love all the ignorant people who don't understand the arguments for nerfing them being made.

It's not that they exist it's that:

1: They have a [low but not zero] chance to just instantly blow up your head even if it is at full health: IE: 1hit kill totally based on Random Numbers, in an ostensibly skill based game]
2: They have INFINITE RANGE, you can drop them anywhere as long as you have LOS no matter how far away
3: There is no way to defend against them at all unless you happen to see the smoke and are fast enough to move in time, which is hard in pug queues when they often GET DROPPED BEHIND YOU and no warning can possibly come in time. [maybe give Betty a "WARNING: INCOMING ARTILLERY/AIRSTRIKE" message?]
4: Low skill ceiling, they are massively powerful for how easy they are to use.
5: No tonnage or heat requirement at all for such a powerful [albiet one shot] weapon system? At least limit it to mechs with Command Consoles or make it require TAG designation for target lock or something, make that piece of trash [command console] useful.

These are the main points.

Edited by QuantumButler, 12 November 2014 - 01:16 PM.

[Telmasa]

Beat me to the punch this time, Quantum.

Even a team that brings nothing but small pulse lasers is having to give up certain drawbacks in order to do so:
1. Very low "alpha" damage.
2. Minor, even if mostly not worth considering, heat and tonnage requirements.
3. Extremely short range (requiring limited tactics and extremely long periods of exposure of your mech in order to make the weapon effective).

Not to mention, no small pulse laser has splash damage or shakes a mech when it hits.


I've spent years playing WoT where, ever since a certain patch, "random chance" has been force-injected into every aspect of the game.

That's the reason I quit playing. If they took that away, I would go back to playing that game. In a long-term gameplay viewpoint, all that "random chance" injection adds up to is helpless frustration, because a major aspect of succeeding competitively is taken completely out of the player's hands - there's absolutely nothing that a player can do about it.

There's a huge difference between "dynamic challenging gameplay" and "random chance". That's a big factor for why nobody plays dice-roll games like Axis and Allies anymore, and why games like Civilization V and/or any one of the cornucopia of popular RTS games are the favored grand strategy games - none of them forcibly make random chance a major factor of the game.

It's more enjoyable to have consistency, and have matches determined by strategy, tactics, and player skill, than to have it determined by luck.


If there's people who prefer Mechwarrior to be like a gambling card game, more power to them. But, in the grand scheme of things, and what I believe to be the intended scope of this game, that's exactly the type of gameplay that should be avoided at all costs.

Edited by Telmasa, 12 November 2014 - 01:39 PM.

[SharpCookie]

They need to be changed. They are too easy to use, do too much damage, and cost too little. I see these strikes used in every single match. I see them used by players in a 1v1 brawl trying to get in more damage.

I know they have a role in the game, but it needs more cost, risk, and skill to use. Point and click from as far as you like. That's more easy mode than LRMs...

[Gauvan]

I hate posting in shouty threads but I feel kinda strongly about this one so…

Why is artillery in MWO? I mean what purpose does it serve from a gameplay perspective? (All opinions are relative to the solo queue, because that’s where I play.)

I think an inarguable one is that it’s a cash sink in a game where players can run out of things to spend money on.

I don’t really buy the “it’s supposed to break up entrenched deathballs” argument. That would be area denial and that’s not how artillery is working. A good player is going to drop the smoke behind most of the intended targets so it’s not moving them before the strike, they don’t see it. It’s not moving them during the strike--it’s too short a period. After the strike, what motivation is there to move? The original spotter can’t call arty again so they are no immediate threat. Unless there is a group of spotters chain calling in arty you are actually safer to stay put (rember, solo queue) than scatter. The damage has been done.

I also can’t buy the simulation position either. Giant robots fighting wars is a profoundly silly concept that has to be accepted with a wink. There are a lot of things they could add to increase the veracity of the game, even within the fictional context, before they needed to add remote artillery. I strongly believe artillery just got added as a money sink, not as something to ‘increase realism’.

The way it’s working is that the artillery consumable lets a mech cast a fireball spell on the enemy team. The game effect is a one shot AOE ‘free’ (no heat, no critical slot) attack. That’s not to say I want to see a more complex, ‘fixed’ version of the fireball spell. I don’t think it really adds to the game and could be just eliminated without harming core gameplay.

So in the solo queue my opinion is that it’s an irritation that could be gotten rid of. Revenge artillery by a dying mech are particularly silly. If in the group queue folks are able to organize chain drops of artillery in a short time frame, I would say that’s also pretty silly and should have some limits put in place (max number of uses for each team, something like that).

If folks can sit in a location and have a strong defensive advantage without a positional counter, I think that’s a map design problem.

Edited by Gauvan, 12 November 2014 - 03:01 PM.

[LordMelvin]

I wouldn't mind seeing a longer delay, both in deployment of the flare and time to impact of the first shells. I've had more than a few games where a fast light or two zip up the flank and drop strikes on the team while we're figuring out our game plan. It's worse on smaller maps where lances spawning on the flanks can be within spot range of each other from the start of the match.

I prefer blind firing LRMs to arty anyway. It serves to drive people back into cover so my team can maneuver into a better position. And it's funny watching people spaz out in cover trying to figure out why they aren't getting an audio alert.

Edited by LordMelvin, 12 November 2014 - 02:38 PM.

[InspectorG]

Zolaz, on 07 November 2014 - 01:07 AM, said:

Bad pilots need a buff.

NO! YOU are WRONG Sir!!!!

Good pilots need a NERF!!!

[LordBraxton]

Arty isn't that strong, but being able to do serious damage with an item that takes up no slots and weighs nothing is... stupid.

Consumables are stupid.

UAVs\Arty etc. need to be part of a build, not a taxable advantage.

[Hillbillycrow]

15 pages of Yes and No.

[InspectorG]

Averen, on 07 November 2014 - 05:40 AM, said:

My issue is that it's not a fair weapon in the first place.

Look to BT lore.

How may Dual Gauss mechs were there? At less than assault weight?

How many AC40?

How many 6SRM6?

How many LRM50+

How many Max engine mechs?

How many Max Armor mechs?

Fair is relative term in regards to game balance and rules.

Why not assume each enemy mech has an arty and pilot accordingly?

In Puglandia, i see few arty, i assume most are too poor to sport them regularly.

In team drop, arty, is valuable for several reasons...

Can you name ANY reasons they would be valuable for things OTHER than causing damage?

[QuantumButler]

InspectorG, on 12 November 2014 - 02:40 PM, said:

Look to BT lore.

How may Dual Gauss mechs were there? At less than assault weight?

How many AC40?

How many 6SRM6?

How many LRM50+

How many Max engine mechs?

How many Max Armor mechs?

Fair is relative term in regards to game balance and rules.

Why not assume each enemy mech has an arty and pilot accordingly?

In Puglandia, i see few arty, i assume most are too poor to sport them regularly.

In team drop, arty, is valuable for several reasons...

Can you name ANY reasons they would be valuable for things OTHER than causing damage?

BT lore has zero baring on an online skill based sim -lite shooter, it's not a true BT game and never will be, and besides Arty isn't anything even remotely like the actual thing in BT lore, at least stuff like gauss and srms and AC40s work more or less how they actually would in BT if you had a custom built combat unit equipping them, whereas the red smoke we have is basically a magic spell that deals 20d20 of AOE damage.

[InspectorG]

QuantumButler, on 13 November 2014 - 01:01 AM, said:

BT lore has zero baring on an online skill based sim -lite shooter

Many here would disagree.

Isnt that what separates this from any other shooter?

Yes, it is prone to interpretation. In a future fantasy setting of mechanized combat, face it, MWO really UNDER-represents Artillery. 20d20 is...according to real life terms, very generous.

And also:
"Can you name ANY reasons they would be valuable for things OTHER than causing damage?"

Anyone answer that yet?